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Author Topic: Ending "Number Matching Crap" has to start at the top!  (Read 8672 times)
IZRSSS
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« on: June 18, 2012, 04:48:02 PM »

Here is what brought about this discussion; being from New Mexico, I am out of the loop when it comes to First Gen happenings from the East Coast. As far as this small town guy can decipher, the East Coast is a Mecca for the best of the best car shows in the entire country. Some of these are also what many of us Westerners set our sights on for the ultimate in high stakes First Gen competition. It also goes without saying this is where many of the standards are set for others around the country to follow. At least that was my belief until a close CRG friend filled me in on some of the BS statements people in high places have to say when asked to help put an end to the above practice. You heard me correct, Camaro Nationals, AACA, ISCA (probably the worst), and the list goes on. Par for the course is; we just don't have the time to police everyone. Well, if you don't have the time to police then maybe you've been there too long and it's time to move aside so that folks that do have the time can talk the talk and walk the walk and do what it takes to get the job done! How many volunteers do you guys get at those big shows? I am certain if the top dogs from these organizations used a little tact several volunteers would jump at the chance to contribute!
 
I think it's safe to say 99.999% of us are extremely concerned about this viral epidemic that threatens the integrity of our hobby. I would also assume, given a chance the majority of us would jump on a band wagon if we knew this wagon was capable of having a significant impact on ending this epidemic! Or at the very least kicking it in the ass! It's perfectly alright to have categories for Clones, Mods or whatever the heck you want to call them but for Petes sake, keep a data base so that these cars are on the radar, and anyone and everyone can have access to this data base. And last but not least, one club cannot go it alone. All top clubs need to contribute. I'm sure many of you have excellent ideas, just put your heads together and come up with a plan; the least of which should be exposing as many culprits as possible and placing limitations on how far up the awards platform these fakes can go. Pretty certain there's nothing to worry about when it comes to the Camaro Nationals ranking system, but what about the AACA? And I think it's a lost cause for the ISCA. After all, aren't mods  and glitz and glitter the name of the game at those shows?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 05:42:14 PM by IZRSSS » Logged
67L78
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 06:01:18 PM »

Simple solution, stop showing your car. Attend events such as MCACN, Forge Inv. and others. They don't jugde or give out awards. That gets rid of all the stress and BS envolved. Kick back, talk to people, enjoy the machines. Who cares if there is a few bugs in the grill.

Whitecoupe
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lakeholme
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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 07:03:52 PM »

AACA does not match numbers.
Go to AACA's website, click on publications, log into guidelines. No where does it mention matching numbers. While many of us know how to read cowl tags, that is not a part of the judging process.
Every other year our Grand Nationals are in the West. Last week it was in Shelbyville, TN. BTW, a plain jane 68 327 got a first.
It is true in the USA that the East has a strong concentration of cars and clubs, especially around Pennsylvania.
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Phillip
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 07:41:24 PM »

As I mentioned I am not up to speed on these shows so thanks for filling me in on the matching numbers part. I guess my point is AACA shows attract huge numbers of cars and from what I've read here on CRG, this also includes large numbers of First Gens. This would be the perfect environment for acquiring information. FWIW, I'd be willing to do the same here in NM. How would I go about it, well glad you asked?  Wink

a.   Strike off a conversation. (us First Gen owners have never been known to be short on words) Play coy and just soak in all the details?
b.   Be honest with the owner and let him/her know why you're conducting a “survey”.
c.   If the owner claims the car is genuine, ask if you can take a few pics of the engine pad and other important details (VIN & Trim Tag).
d.   If the owner admits the car is a clone then ask if you can take a few pics of the engine pad, etc.

Phillip – I'm just rambling on here but I think you get the gist of it. Obviously a standard format would have to be developed and agreed upon by all major clubs so there is consistency . Something else would have to be developed so that there is no question the information was given freely by the owners. And perhaps some sort of a hold harmless agreement signed by the owner or whatever legal mumble jumble would be required if any.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 08:09:11 PM by IZRSSS » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 09:33:12 PM »

Marty don't get me wrong but.... Your tugging on Superman's Cape. If it were to be all-in-one somebody somewhere would loose power and possibly face. That's why you can't get a consensus on a lot of things. 
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 10:22:31 PM »

Simple solution, stop showing your car. Attend events such as MCACN, Forge Inv. and others. They don't jugde or give out awards. That gets rid of all the stress and BS envolved. Kick back, talk to people, enjoy the machines. Who cares if there is a few bugs in the grill.

Whitecoupe

How'd you guess. I haven't shown the car once this year. Burned out I guess. Its amazing how much effort some of us will put out for a 5 or 10 dollar plaque. What I have missed is visiting with old friends. Your idea might be right up my alley.

Marty don't get me wrong but.... Your tugging on Superman's Cape. If it were to be all-in-one somebody somewhere would loose power and possibly face. That's why you can't get a consensus on a lot of things. 

Not sure I follow you Dan?
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2012, 12:53:16 AM »

We do in fact have judging at MCACN.
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lakeholme
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2012, 07:20:25 AM »

Let's not forget how that it was the manufacturer(and the government) who originally stamped the numbers. And if you are determining originality that and documentation are where you'd start.

Hang in there, Marty. I had a conversation with a very qualified judge that was burned out this past weekend. It happens to all of us.
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Phillip
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2012, 09:09:18 AM »

Phil- I'm not sure how you guys do it year, after year, after year; I've only been at it for 6yrs and showed the Camaro 3 consecutive yrs at 33 shows. I think I just went too gun-hoe (think that's a word) right out of the gate, just needed a break. I'm sure it won't be too much longer before I get that itch again. Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2012, 12:13:05 PM »

Good! Glad to hear it.
It's okay to spout off now and then.
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Phillip
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 12:48:55 PM »

Not spouting off. I'm dead serious about my feelings concerning fake First Gens.
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camaronut
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 06:39:34 PM »

Marty.....don't get too wrapped up in it.......clones are an accepted part of the hobby......unfortunately.
The people who own them buy the same parts you & I do, and keep the hobby going.....fortunately.

The people who sell them and don't tell the unsuspecting buyers is what makes it bad.  I know some folks in the hobby who have done exactly that.....it's on their conscience, not mine.

Folks who appreciate these cars at shows really don't give a rats about the numbers matching thing....its the car they like....and want to be part of the hobby.

My car has the original engine and rear....the Turbo 350 was long gone....I don't consider my car a clone since it is an original SS.....just not lucky...but I enjoy it for what it is.

You have a neat car....enjoy it, and don't stress it! Grin
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2012, 07:33:04 PM »

Hi Marty,

  Burnt out...been there, done that in the late 80's early 90's. After I lost interest in the shows eventually I just began to drive it and not worry about every piece of dirt. I don't know how wide spread the fakes were back then, at least with Camaros, but I enjoyed myself anyhow and didn't worry at all. Luckily for me I knew the history of both my cars when I bought them and at that time people couldn't wait to get rid of gas guzzlers.
  No matter what your interests are, paintings, vintage gun collecting, coins...or anything of value, fakes will always exist as a small percentage of any venue so I am sure cars are the same. So enjoy life as we live it now and frig the fakes and let the new purchasers worry about that. Like anything else we buy we have to research before laying down $$$$$.

 Now, I'm back in the 'hobby' and re-restoring one of my L35's to show again but on a smaller scale and also to just enjoy life while I am healthy, sane and have some $$$ in my pocket. Life takes on new meanings the older one gets. Sure I'm taken back by the reported fakes out there but I step back often and try to view it as a whole and don't see it as rampant as it seems because nobody has yet provided any empirical data one way or the other about how widespread fakes are. To me fakes are here, everywhere, as they were in the past and as they will be in the future so I don't lose sleep over it.

Live and drive for today  Wink

Mike
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2012, 07:50:59 PM »

Mike & Mike – Appreciate your input; that goes double for Phil and Dan. The issue with the Gold Z has really gotten under my skin and Phil was right; I did have to blow off a little steam. Here's why; I have always thought of Rick Hendricks as this larger than life man who could have lived in Mayberry and passed as Opie’s dad. He is someone I have admired time and time again and then he pulls this stunt. This is his golden opportunity to add to his larger than life personification by doing what's right.
 
On the flip side, I think it's safe to say big brother (CRG) has us covered. I am certain every time a numbers matching clone raises its ugly head CRG is chomping-at-the-bit to document every single detail about the car. The Gold Z is a prime example. It's reassuring to know they'll be here if we need them.
 
Guess I'll get off my high horse. Dang I give up easy.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 08:10:17 PM by IZRSSS » Logged
maroman
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« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2012, 08:46:16 PM »

Marty, I think the problem is 99 percent of the people either don't know or care whether it's real or not. My problem, and I suspect yours too, is that the 1 percent that do know still trys to pull off stuff like this.
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« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2012, 06:42:31 AM »

one thing that may help, is to have more disclosure.

There are many court cases where the buyer uses the legal system to return a car or get a settlement for a misrepsented car.

Some of this is public information , if the case was posted on the car web sites, it may serve as a deterrence for the people who build or sell fake cars.
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2012, 12:08:23 PM »

and the other point to note is that Rick Hendrix probably doesn't deal in the 'day to day' activities (of either his racing enterprises, OR the collecting enterprises)..  he has his 'people' do that stuff...   and I'm sure they are more interested in preserving their jobs than they are in being honest and truthful about every car that comes thru the collection..
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2012, 12:11:30 PM »

Joe - On the surface that is perhaps the best idea anyone could have come up with. It sure sounds easy enough too but as with anything, I’m sure there is a long list of laundry issues that would keep that from happening. For example;
 
a.   Do all states offer this information free of charge?
b.   How does one verify the information he/she receives online is gospel?
c.   How does one keep track of vehicles whose Drivetrain were once cloned and all of a sudden ends up finding its mate?
d.   And, most important; what prevents a person/website from getting sued over posting false information even if it wasn’t intentional?

Something tells me “numbers matching crap” upsets CRG core members more than you or I will ever know. I am also certain if there was a more efficient way of exposing these practices it would have been done by now. Has CRG ever been hesitant to state whether or not a given First Gen is numbers or not?  Nope, it’s like they can’t wait to let us know. And that’s just fine with me!!!!!!!!  Grin
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mickeystoys69RSSS
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2012, 06:38:22 PM »

Marty,
Most importantly if there is a settlement for the buyer it comes with a nondisclosure statement.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2012, 07:17:33 PM »

and the other point to note is that Rick Hendrix probably doesn't deal in the 'day to day' activities (of either his racing enterprises, OR the collecting enterprises)..  he has his 'people' do that stuff...  and I'm sure they are more interested in preserving their jobs than they are in being honest and truthful about every car that comes thru the collection..
I understand what you're saying but I still have a difficult time believing it. Mr. Hendricks, or any person for that matter who has a large company must (or at the very least should) have a go-to-person that keeps him/her advised on important and potentially harmful activities within a company (or perhaps a Board of Directors???). I just can't accept anyone being that naive or that misinformed.

If I found out someone within my small company was compromising its integrity, they'd be out on the street so fast it would make their head spin!

Marty,
Most importantly if there is a settlement for the buyer it comes with a nondisclosure statement.
Point well taken.
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2012, 11:57:48 PM »

Marty,
 What is your gripe about "Numbers matching" exactly? They should be considered or not? Considered too much or not enough? you feel you been cheated? Jumping from judging to fake tags, I must have missed something, Just trying to follow what your lashing out about.
   VT
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2012, 07:55:23 AM »

VT- Numbers Matching refers to a vehicle that still retains its Original Factory Drivetrain components; i.e., Engine, Transmission & Rear. IMO these are the only vehicles that should be allowed to compete at top shows for top awards where categories are based on originality. Once a car is considered for one of these top awards it should be scrutinized down to the numbers to see if it indeed warrants one of these awards. I haven't had the opportunity to attend one of these shows but if I ever do I would like to think these practices are in place.
 
Do I feel I've been cheated in competition; No. Do I feel I've been cheated because of all the “Numbers Matching Garbage” that's out there; not necessarily cheated, concerned!
 
Hope this answers your question.   
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vtfb68
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2012, 08:34:15 AM »

Marty,
 A bit. I do not follow jugding, don't care. So they consider phoney stamps as real? Or they don't even check?
 IMO Jugding is just that... Jugding.. Opinion. If they just used a check list the same cars would win everything every time. Anything that has to be jugded in in the hands of humans. Somebody elses car or opinion does not effect me.
   Good luck,
   VT
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« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2012, 04:03:08 PM »

My car has the original engine and rear....the Turbo 350 was long gone....I don't consider my car a clone since it is an original SS.

Mike – I'm not back tracking here just missed an important point. Your car has its original ENGINE and rear (the ENGINE being the deciding factor). You have also honestly admitted its missing its matching transmission. As far as I'm concern it's certainly in the running for any top original award. If you were in the running for the top award at one of these shows and your competition was another admitted original ENGINE First Gen but missing either its tranny or rear the deciding factor should be based on how the rest of the cars overall appearance and components presented themselves.

On the other hand, if one of you attempted to pass your cars off as “Number Matching” and it was later found one of the Drivetrain components was popped (engine, trans, or rear) then that owner's car should be disqualified and logged into a data base.

For the sake of argument I am not talking about the Camaro Nationals. I'm assuming those guys can spot a fake the minute it comes through the gate. Or mere minutes into an inspection.

Thanks for pointing that out.
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« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2012, 06:31:42 PM »

I will say one thing that really gets my hair on end and are those new full body Camaros in a crate....
I'm sure there are cars out there that have old trim / vin / hidden number plates removed from original Camaros and placed on those new bodied cars.......which drives me insane.
If a car that is far gone with rust and beyond repair, then so be it.....it should be gone.....but there's always those folks who see opportunity to screw someone out of cash and create the same car all over again.....especially if it's a L78 / Z28....
Hopefully, there's something on these new body cars that separate them from the originals so you can spot these things during an inspection....
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2012, 07:30:38 PM »

We're certainly on the same page!!!  Wink
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« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2012, 07:58:17 PM »

Hopefully, there's something on these new body cars that separate them from the originals so you can spot these things during an inspection....
Besides the sheetmetal run numbers shown on this site, there are other stampings throughout the structure. You'd have to have ask someone to disassemble their car to verify it. I'm willing to bet there are some high dollar cars out there that have had just about every panel replaced except parts of the main structure. And even those can be replaced. Not much difference between that and a D'corn body. If someone's pride and joy, matching numbers car got T-boned, you think they'd put a whole side on it or part it out, junk the body and just save the drivetrain? You can buy the entire side structure in one piece.
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2012, 08:07:38 AM »

If you've ever looked at many restored Pre-War cars (that didn't get modified), many of them have sheet metal from two or more other cars. That's the only way they could reconstruct a whole car, and they don't have anyone stamping parts for them to buy. I'm aware of a beautiful Packard that is really three cars to make one. Obviously, we're no where close to that with Camaros yet. Still, that's what makes survivors so important and truly valuable.
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Phillip
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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2012, 11:50:55 AM »

In the Corvette world, "matching numbers" doesn't mean "born with components" which is bull. I believe that "original cars" should be judged differently than "restored to original" cars as cars are only original once. I don't know of any judjing that will police the action of not original as left factory. Then who's going to police new quarters, doors, fenders, floors etc. Those cars are not "born with components". How should we judje those cars?.....Joe
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« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2012, 01:43:23 PM »

In the Corvette world, "matching numbers" doesn't mean "born with components" which is bull. I believe that "original cars" should be judged differently than "restored to original" cars as cars are only original once. I don't know of any judjing that will police the action of not original as left factory. Then who's going to police new quarters, doors, fenders, floors etc. Those cars are not "born with components". How should we judje those cars?.....Joe

By the workmanship and appearance that makes them simulate what came from tbe factory, which BTW was not exactly perfect.  But, Joe, you make an important point. If you are judging by true originality, a survivor would always get more deductions than a restored car. It has over four decades of wear and tear.
AACA has recently added a new Original award to the HPOF category, which means it is "significantly original". But HPOF is not exactly point judged. The judging team certifies originality. And as several have said that requires a different kind of "judgement".
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« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2012, 01:55:14 PM »

Phillip
I believe the VCCA is doing a couple of different classes to cover that area also...Joe
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« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2012, 03:02:02 PM »

Phillip
I believe the VCCA is doing a couple of different classes to cover that area also...Joe

I've heard that. VCCA's HPOCF requires certification in at least two of three areas... I think.
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Phillip
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« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2012, 03:10:30 PM »

Sounds about right. I've never looked into. I don't have anything that fit in that classification. I don't have anything that would fall under my own judging ideas. I have a 68 z/28 that doesn't have it's "born with" engine & transmission but no changed body panels & a 69 ss396 that was restored using NOS front sheet metal but has 100% "born with" drivetrain. Go figure....Joe
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« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2012, 03:23:05 PM »

You and Marty need to talk with someone from ACA.
They have multiple categories and classes.
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« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2012, 04:22:09 PM »

Phil, what is your thoughts on the " any color any option" rule?
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« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2012, 05:15:34 PM »

Personally, I think the car should match the cowl tag... Easy for me to say with the 68 cowl tag, I suppose...  Roll Eyes

But, if you are not matching numbers, then any color/any option should still be at least factory year correct, if we're talking about point judging a car.

BTW, before anyone jumps my case, Maroman asked for my "opinion".   Grin

BTW, nowadays, they are called guidelines, not rules.  Wink
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« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2012, 06:58:30 PM »

Interesting, I guess this is one area where Mopar has a definite advantage. The fender tag and even the VIN number define much of the car. Mid year and later 69 Camaros at least have X codes so that helps. In both cases everything can be faked and they are getting better all the time and the people capable are getting looser.

Clone is one that is represented as something it was not.

A non-matching numbers car is an original that is missing a major component.

A restamp is a restamp and doesn't make it a clone it makes it a non-numbers car.

So is a car restored that has its original engine but everything else including sheetmetal has been replace more of an original than a car that is a restored original with a non-numbers engine. I think not.

As mentioned just an opinion. Cars are meant to be driven not trailered around and polished. I have been at this for well over 30 years and cant say I have every burnt out, life has rearranged priorities from time to time so that I spent less time at it but never burnt out and I have been in the business the whole time. Cars aren't a life style or a life choice they are in your DNA.
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« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2012, 07:12:14 PM »

In the Corvette world, "matching numbers" doesn't mean "born with components" which is bull. I believe that "original cars" should be judged differently than "restored to original" cars as cars are only original once. I don't know of any judjing that will police the action of not original as left factory. Then who's going to police new quarters, doors, fenders, floors etc. Those cars are not "born with components". How should we judje those cars?.....Joe

It is far from “bull” if it also means the owner is falsifying records as they pertain to Drive Trains (which are also components). This thread has nothing to do with replacing partial components other than Drive Trains. If it did we wouldn't have a hobby. I think Mike was referencing entire body replacements which should raise a red flag as to the integrity of the rest of the car.
 
IMO, the term “Born with components” can only be adhered to when judging “Survivor Cars”. These cars should have their own unique category (in place at only one show that I'm aware of) and judged based on an assembly line build format. But even these cars shouldn't be immune from their own set of high standards. For example, if any component has been replaced, even if there is evidence of date correct OEM parts, factory replacements, or whatever term you'd like to use, it should carry with it a penalty/deduction. Including their Drive Trains. None of which should have been removed for whatever reason. The rules for these cars should be as stringent as any other top categories at top shows that include First Gens. The premise here should be prime examples of exactly what one of these cars looked like when it rolled off the assembly line.

KIM, just one guys opinion.  Wink
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« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2012, 07:28:17 PM »

A complete body replacement shouldn't raise a red flag to the cars integrity, it's not the same car end of story. I have seen a number of arguement to the heart or core of the car and there are many opinions but I think most would agree the core chassis frame work or skeleton if you would of the car is among the core. How much replacement makes it a different car?

Survivor a whole different breed. The definition I have always heard and adhered to is a car that has had no significant repairs and only the necessary maintenance to keep it driving, retains all of its original sheetmetal and 80% of its original paint. Is this the same definition recognized by CRG? Other sanctioning bodies?
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« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2012, 07:36:12 PM »

You and Marty need to talk with someone from ACA.
They have multiple categories and classes.

I would Phil but the car is several years off from where it should be.  Wink
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« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2012, 08:14:33 PM »

Thanks Phil, your opinion is exactly what I wanted. I think we are on the same page here. I know you judge and I respect the time and effort. I've asked questions the whole way to the "top office" why a car that could land a person in jail is accepted on the showfield and I was told I don't understand. If it's not a Z-28 it shouldn't be judged as one just because it looks like one. That's MY opinion.
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« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2012, 08:49:44 PM »

You and Marty need to talk with someone from ACA.
They have multiple categories and classes.

I would Phil but the car is several years off from where it should be.  Wink

Marty, it's still a beautiful car! You should get back out there and let people see it.

Thanks Phil, your opinion is exactly what I wanted. I think we are on the same page here. I know you judge and I respect the time and effort. I've asked questions the whole way to the "top office" why a car that could land a person in jail is accepted on the showfield and I was told I don't understand. If it's not a Z-28 it shouldn't be judged as one just because it looks like one. That's MY opinion.

Well, we're on the same page there, too. But when you move away from matching numbers, model specific events that happens all too often.
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« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2012, 09:46:44 PM »

BTW, a plain jane 68 327 got a first.

Was that '68 a cool shade of yellow; say butternut?  Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2012, 10:25:30 PM »

IMO, the term “Born with components” can only be adhered to when judging “Survivor Cars”.

A survivor car is just that, a car that has survived all these years as an original upkept car.

A car can be a restored car with "born with components" also. It doesn't nessesarily mean it's a survivor
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« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2012, 11:16:54 PM »

BTW, a plain jane 68 327 got a first.
Wink
Was that '68 a cool shade of yellow; say butternut?  Smiley

Yes, but no vinyl top... not mine. And I judged early  Vettes. so my butternut prejudice was not involved .   Wink
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« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2012, 10:42:38 AM »

In the Corvette world, "matching numbers" doesn't mean "born with components" which is bull. I believe that "original cars" should be judged differently than "restored to original" cars as cars are only original once.

Neither the NCRS nor Bloomington Gold (the two primary Corvette judging organizations) uses or recognizes the term "matching numbers", as that phrase can mean many different things to different people.

Both of those organizations have completely separate judging policies and procedures for unrestored vs. restored cars. Bloomington Gold Certification and NCRS Flight Judging  consider both the appearance of originality and condition, and are open to restored cars AND unrestored cars, although most in these categories are restored cars. NCRS Flight Judging is done based on the extent to which the car deviates from a published standard (each year Corvette has its own highly-detailed 150-page judging guide), and Bloomington Gold judging generally follows a similar process, although not to the same level of detail.

Unrestored original cars are judged in the NCRS in the "Star/Bowtie" category, which ONLY considers pure originality (Is that the part originally installed on the car at St. Louis?), and there is NO "condition" judging. All four areas (Interior, Exterior, Mechanical, and Chassis) are judged independently, and each must score as 80%-85% original to earn a "Star" award for that area. If all four areas pass, the car earns the "Bowtie" award.

The Bloomington Gold "Survivor" judging criteria are different - the car needs to score at least 50% original for a pass in each of the four areas, but it only needs to pass three of the four areas to earn the "Survivor" award; one area can fail completely and the car can still earn "Survivor".
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« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2012, 12:22:23 PM »

John, thanks for the great information and insight into the world of Corvette judging.

My question now would be who is the current leader in Camaro judging, and is there an “available” published standard that we all could use as a reference when restoring our cars?

Mike 
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« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2012, 01:43:16 PM »

Mike – I think Jerry might have some good information as well; http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9707.0

FWIW- my sights are set on the Camaro Nationals and the Bowtie & Legend class. I don’t know of a more controlled format for fair and unbiased judging. It’s my understanding the cars in these two categories are judged solely against themselves. Here is a site I’ve hung onto which gives an excellent description of their format; in the center of the page in green print: “Classes judged to A.C.A. guidelines & scoring systems”. And on the left column you’ll find two useful PDF’s; “Legend Prequalification”, and “4 Page Flyer”.

http://www.americancamaro.org/nationals.php

Hope this helps.

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« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2012, 06:34:09 PM »

Maroman,
Read the Bowtie class info on the four page flyer from Camaro  Nationals that Marty posted the  link. I think that's where any restoration for judging should move towards in terms of originality.
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« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2012, 08:24:45 PM »

I'm with you on that, Phil. I've been told by the Boss that they don't have time to check all that stuff on the showfield. I understand that. BUT, it could be policed for GN or SGN cars for sure.  As I said before I've been told I don't understand, AND I AGREED. A fake is still a fake, no matter what award it's given.
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« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2012, 09:37:54 PM »

So what's the deal with this car which is claimed to be a rebody? What did they do about the hiddens?  http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=209853
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« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2012, 07:34:05 AM »

So what's the deal with this car which is claimed to be a rebody? What did they do about the hiddens?  http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=209853

 He claims the car is done with 100% GM sheet metal. So we know GM doesn't make bodies so either he is misleading on purpose or the person who claims to have seen this car before and was re-bodied is wrong. Maybe someone should call him out on this?
 I find it comical that the car hobby has slipped low to the point where any car is assumed guilty of being a fake until proven real. Maybe the price bottom should drop out to lets things settle to realistic values and human morals restored.

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« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2012, 08:35:34 AM »

Sellers quote; http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-Z-28-Camaro-Real-Deal-Code-4L-Super-Rare-302-Amazing-Restoration-MUST-SEE-/160830671961?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2572414c59

"As most of you know they only made 602 of these awesome rare true muscle cars.  I have talked to Jerry McNeish and he has verified this car has been listed in the 1967 Z28 registry for around 20 years or so.  The car has a really neat history and  is really rare to have some original paperwork on the car from the dealership it was sold at new".

Jerry- can you fill us in Huh
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« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2012, 08:50:24 AM »

I call them incomplete truths. Rebodies, restamps and drivetrain swaps. This type of thing has been going on since the 70's and earlier and still is; nothing new here. And none of the power sellers or people in the hobby(business) higher in the food chain have ever had their hands involved in any of it, or deal with those that do so they can gain indirectly. They have too much integrity.
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« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2012, 08:56:11 AM »

What I can tell you is the cowl tag is real and this car was entered into the registry about 20 years ago.  Have I inspected it in person?  No.  So, I do not know any of the details about this car.  I have not seen the hidden vin #'s or drive train stampings to know if they are original to the car or not.......

Jerry 
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« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2012, 10:11:37 AM »

I call them incomplete truths. Rebodies, restamps and drivetrain swaps.

Thanks Jerry! Falls right in line with what Scott said. So at this point its anyones guess as to the integrity of this car.

Isn't it unusual for a car this special to have its engine pad buried in that much paint?

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« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2012, 11:34:31 PM »

TECHNICALLY, IF YOU REBODY A CAR, YOU ARE USING GM SHEETMETAL
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« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2012, 05:10:19 AM »

TECHNICALLY, IF YOU REBODY A CAR, YOU ARE USING GM SHEETMETAL
And if you transfer the serial number tag you are breaking state law if not federal law. In PA. it would require a state issued mu,ber tag with a reconstructed title.
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« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2012, 02:00:44 PM »

TECHNICALLY, IF YOU REBODY A CAR, YOU ARE USING GM SHEETMETAL

Again, this has nothing to do with partial body replacement parts. But being a naturalist as most of us are, wouldn't you have major reservations about replacing an entire body with a repop? I think someone mentioned somewhere, on this thread or somewhere else, "You have to draw the line somewhere". This is as good a place as any to draw that line!
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« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2012, 03:23:16 PM »

Marty, I think I remember a ZL-1 discussion here recently. The car was "rebodied" and the interior replaced during restoration. It had been a drag car from new, so it surely didn't have the right engine block or transmission, possibly the rear end too. The wheels would have certainly replaced with mags, too. So what was left of the original car? And if I remember right it brought $400,000 at auction.
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« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2012, 04:12:29 PM »

I read about that car over on SYC. It sold for somewhere ~ 410K. My personal opinion, (as if though it matters) there’s a fool born every minute. I’m proof of that. Grin  But not even this fool would pay that much for a pieced together rendition of what a car once was. It was also sold at B-J. There were two bidders who must have been caught up in the moment, bidding on some hipped up B-J guys narrative ½ way thru the sale, who wanted to strut their $$$ on national TV. Talk about taking the bait hook, line, and sinker! Why can’t that ever happen to me!

Doug – if you totaled your car and the only way to salvage it was to buy a repop body, would you do it? If it were me; heck No! I would simply collect my agreed upon compensation from the insurance company and move on!
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« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2012, 04:58:39 PM »

Marty, I know my car from new, know most of the 11 owners! I wanted it when it was for sale by owner number 2. The original engine was gone with owner number 4, trans with number 1, rear sometime before number 10. It will have at least new quarters on it. I've now owned it longer then anyone else, but it's still known as owner number 3's car! When I'm finished it will LOOK correct, but never be right number wise. BUT I will never, never have it in a situation where any of that matters. And it will be here when I'm gone for my wife or kids to make up any story they want. A car owner can do anything they want, IMO, except lie about what the car is. If it's rebodied it's NOT the same car.
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« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2012, 07:29:46 PM »

Sooo, the numbers are important for the original reason they were put on cars...
The problem is dishonesty by both commission and omission.
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« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2012, 07:45:41 PM »

Marty, I know my car from new, know most of the 11 owners! I wanted it when it was for sale by owner number 2. The original engine was gone with owner number 4, trans with number 1, rear sometime before number 10. It will have at least new quarters on it. I've now owned it longer then anyone else, but it's still known as owner number 3's car! When I'm finished it will LOOK correct, but never be right number wise. BUT I will never, never have it in a situation where any of that matters. And it will be here when I'm gone for my wife or kids to make up any story they want. A car owner can do anything they want, IMO, except lie about what the car is. If it's rebodied it's NOT the same car.

There for a moment I thought I was listening to segments of “Broken Trail”. Wink

Seriously, great history on your car! I understand where you’re coming from. There is one car that I’ve been interested in since I was a kid; a ’67 Chevelle. And the only reason I wanted it way back when, was because it used to go up and down our street hauling butt and it sounded soooo dad gum good. Now that I know a little more about this stuff, there’s no question in my mind it’s an L78. It has been sitting in the same place for 30+ years under plastic tarps. I haven’t given up on it yet.
 
Something tells me the engines blown. Quite frankly I wouldn’t care. If I had it, and the motor was blown, I’d toss a crate in it and drive it like the owner did back then. And just have fun for a change. And like you, would never try to pass it off as an original.


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« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2012, 08:20:28 PM »

Phil it will be painted the original color, look just like the picture I have of it when it was 3 weeks old. It spent the best part of it's life with American five spokes.  Not sure what I'll do with that as I don't like the new ones and don't want to pay the price for old ones. But I'd never restamp the block as it just doesn't interest me. Casting numbers are right, carb and distributor is right.
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« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2012, 10:34:44 PM »

So,when will we see a picture?
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« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2012, 05:38:06 AM »

TECHNICALLY, IF YOU REBODY A CAR, YOU ARE USING GM SHEETMETAL
And if you transfer the serial number tag you are breaking state law if not federal law. In PA. it would require a state issued mu,ber tag with a reconstructed title.
A few years ago at the shop I was working at(Dodge, Chevy dealer), we were working on a Dodge truck that needed the whole dash replaced. And, of course, the VIN is riveted to the dash. We had gotten a replacement dash from a salvage yard and all we had to do was swap the VIN plate. That sounded a bit illegal to me at the time and I declined the job. However, it seems in the case of a Chrysler vehicle, all you have to do is call Chrysler and tell them what you are doing and provide them with the VIN info and they will send you a pair of the little star-shaped rivets. Needless to say, another fella in the shop did the swap and all is good. I know its far from a re-body but that was the first case of "messin with the VIN" that seemed to be just fine by everyone. I wouldn't have had any problem with that job except it wasn't worth risking my livelyhood and more for a short venture into a grey area.

John
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« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2012, 06:10:30 AM »

$58,100.00 with a day and a half to go (reserve no met).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-Z-28-Camaro-Real-Deal-Code-4L-Super-Rare-302-Amazing-Restoration-MUST-SEE-/160830671961?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2572414c59
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« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2012, 06:42:58 AM »

VIN transfers on vehicles John mentioned above is nothing out of the ordinary and it's perfectly legal. Ask anyone in collision. Truck cabs, which you can buy new, are considered replacement body parts. Follow the procedures as required for a particular state and the tag is transferred to the new part.
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« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2012, 08:39:56 AM »

That's one law that should be revisited. It shouldn't apply to the collector car community.
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« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2012, 11:23:30 AM »

Collector car has nothing to do with it, nor do the emotions or values one associates with cars. It has to do with a repair. R&R (remove and replace), simple as that. Imagine the breakdown value the insurance industry would have to assign to every collector car's individual part replacement. They are not going to police the hobby to find out who is deceiving a buyer. Car gets smashed, car gets fixed. If you want original parts to fix it, that's your choice. Or just crush it. No one is forcing you to buy it back. Cars that are determind a complete loss are salvage stamped and sold off for parts. That's what you use to repair cars when you buy salvage cars at the auction. Every situation is different. When a repairable car is purchased and fixed it receives a salvage title.
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« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2012, 01:54:27 PM »

Maybe I am late to this post but what does the ebay motors car 1967 z/28 have to do with this post it sounds legit?
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« Reply #72 on: June 29, 2012, 02:26:00 PM »

Your tugging on Superman's Cape. If it were to be all-in-one somebody somewhere would loose power and possibly face.  

Hm-mm, Superman must have shares in Crate Body Shells.
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« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2012, 05:27:37 PM »

Maybe I am late to this post but what does the ebay motors car 1967 z/28 have to do with this post it sounds legit?

Please KIM this comment is strictly my opinion and does not reflect anyone else’s, especially CRG’s.

Someone brought attention to the possibility of this car having a complete re-body and the information appears to come from a reliable source. This alone raises several red flags (for me). There is absolutely no way I would even consider purchasing an “Original” First Generation Camaro, Z28 or non Z28, if there was even a hint of a full body replacement (even if there appeared to be a “legitimate” reason for doing so). It is a skeleton that will follow that car from here to eternity and something that will always raise an eyebrow/red flags. Something I just wouldn’t want to deal with.

The other mystery I have issues with, and I’m sure they have their reasons; CRG has yet to acknowledge this car as authentic (and I don’t need to know why). The only way this member would ever make such a significant purchase with regards to any First Gen is if CRG gave it their blessings.
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« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2012, 05:38:50 PM »

Please KIM this strictly my opinion and does not reflect anyone else’s opinion, especially CRG’s.

**********
The other mystery I have issues with, and I’m sure they have their reasons; CRG has yet to acknowledge this car as authentic (and I don’t need to know why). The only way this member would ever make such a significant purchase with regards to any First Gen is if CRG gave it their blessings.


Quite possibly there is no way for CRG to say one way or another if it is real or not, especially publicly, and risk the possibility of being wrong and then open to liable. Unless something very obvious stands out that leaves no doubts , right now it's only conjecture, opinions and guesses.

Mike
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« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2012, 06:00:08 PM »

Quite possibly there is no way for CRG to say one way or another if it is real or not, especially publicly, and risk the possibility of being wrong and then open to liable. Unless something very obvious stands out that leaves no doubts , right now it's only conjecture, opinions and guesses.
Mike

Even though you've stated the obvious I thought I was quite clear. This is my opinion and my opinion alone. And ("I don't need to know why")!
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« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2012, 06:01:34 PM »

Let's say hypothetically a car was toast and the cowl area or more of the shell was salvagable. All that needs to be done is remove it at the factory seams and transfer to another solid GM donor shell. This type of thing is done in collision daily. So all you have to do is ask the owner to remove the front clip, strip the paint, and check under the brush applied seam sealer to inspect the welds and seams. Don't forget the rest of the stampings on the car. Think an owner is going to go for that? You have to prove a car was about to turn to powder, or hit a pole sideways and was brought back to life.
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« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2012, 06:27:34 PM »

Scott – I consider you one of the authorities on anything First Gen and I respect you opinions. However, you have your reasons for agreeing with those modifications you speak of and I have mine for not agreeing with them. You can also come up with as many scenarios as you’d like for modifying the cowl area and this guy won’t have any of it. If I did then I may as well agree with complete re-bodies. If that’s your take and folks are okay with it then have at it.  I just wouldn’t want the headaches or issues that would follow cars with those modifications.
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« Reply #78 on: June 29, 2012, 06:59:09 PM »

So,when will we see a picture?

Here you go Phil (with Doug's permission)

Disregard '68...Doug's '67 @ 3wks old;  Gotta be careful around here. Folks will eat you alive! Cheesy
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« Reply #79 on: June 29, 2012, 07:11:04 PM »

68? That's a 67 SS/RS 396

Mike
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« Reply #80 on: June 29, 2012, 07:24:19 PM »

Marty, you missed the whole point I was making.  If what I suggested was done, not many prospective buyers would know. So they would not be buying the car they believed rolled off the assembly line. My post goes back to my sardonic remark about people higher in the food chain or power sellers never getting involved in anything deceitful, or associating with those that are. Incomplete truth: All GM Sheetmetal. That's right, cut two cars apart and make one. No lie there, but not all truth either.
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« Reply #81 on: June 29, 2012, 07:25:27 PM »

Sorry Doug. I have always mix up the 67 & 68's. Don't know why, the wide rocker moldings of a 67 are a dead give away.
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Sauron327
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« Reply #82 on: June 29, 2012, 07:28:33 PM »

Vent windows are just one of the giveaways.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2012, 07:36:31 PM »

Scott - Whew, there for a moment I thought you jumped the fence. Wink

As for the vent window; even better. Must have 69 on the brain Huh
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lakeholme
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« Reply #84 on: June 29, 2012, 08:49:07 PM »

Doug, I love it!
In fact, we used to double date in a 67 just like that.
Brings back memories....
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Phillip
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maroman
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« Reply #85 on: June 29, 2012, 10:12:02 PM »

We did?
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Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new
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« Reply #86 on: June 30, 2012, 09:55:45 PM »

Reserve not met;
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maroman
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« Reply #87 on: August 01, 2012, 03:11:39 PM »

Did anyone read Dan Strohl's article on Hemming's Blog today? A Chevelle turned into an LS-6 resulted in a Felony arrest. And a fake serial number tag on a Corvette resulted in another.
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Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new
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« Reply #88 on: August 01, 2012, 06:06:35 PM »

Gotta luv it! Thanks for posting!

http://blog.hemmings.com/
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MO
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« Reply #89 on: August 01, 2012, 06:48:44 PM »

Maybe I am late to this post but what does the ebay motors car 1967 z/28 have to do with this post it sounds legit?
It is a poster child for this thread.
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