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Author Topic: Ending "Number Matching Crap" has to start at the top!  (Read 8651 times)
IZRSSS
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« on: June 18, 2012, 04:48:02 PM »

Here is what brought about this discussion; being from New Mexico, I am out of the loop when it comes to First Gen happenings from the East Coast. As far as this small town guy can decipher, the East Coast is a Mecca for the best of the best car shows in the entire country. Some of these are also what many of us Westerners set our sights on for the ultimate in high stakes First Gen competition. It also goes without saying this is where many of the standards are set for others around the country to follow. At least that was my belief until a close CRG friend filled me in on some of the BS statements people in high places have to say when asked to help put an end to the above practice. You heard me correct, Camaro Nationals, AACA, ISCA (probably the worst), and the list goes on. Par for the course is; we just don't have the time to police everyone. Well, if you don't have the time to police then maybe you've been there too long and it's time to move aside so that folks that do have the time can talk the talk and walk the walk and do what it takes to get the job done! How many volunteers do you guys get at those big shows? I am certain if the top dogs from these organizations used a little tact several volunteers would jump at the chance to contribute!
 
I think it's safe to say 99.999% of us are extremely concerned about this viral epidemic that threatens the integrity of our hobby. I would also assume, given a chance the majority of us would jump on a band wagon if we knew this wagon was capable of having a significant impact on ending this epidemic! Or at the very least kicking it in the ass! It's perfectly alright to have categories for Clones, Mods or whatever the heck you want to call them but for Petes sake, keep a data base so that these cars are on the radar, and anyone and everyone can have access to this data base. And last but not least, one club cannot go it alone. All top clubs need to contribute. I'm sure many of you have excellent ideas, just put your heads together and come up with a plan; the least of which should be exposing as many culprits as possible and placing limitations on how far up the awards platform these fakes can go. Pretty certain there's nothing to worry about when it comes to the Camaro Nationals ranking system, but what about the AACA? And I think it's a lost cause for the ISCA. After all, aren't mods  and glitz and glitter the name of the game at those shows?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 05:42:14 PM by IZRSSS » Logged
67L78
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 06:01:18 PM »

Simple solution, stop showing your car. Attend events such as MCACN, Forge Inv. and others. They don't jugde or give out awards. That gets rid of all the stress and BS envolved. Kick back, talk to people, enjoy the machines. Who cares if there is a few bugs in the grill.

Whitecoupe
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lakeholme
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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 07:03:52 PM »

AACA does not match numbers.
Go to AACA's website, click on publications, log into guidelines. No where does it mention matching numbers. While many of us know how to read cowl tags, that is not a part of the judging process.
Every other year our Grand Nationals are in the West. Last week it was in Shelbyville, TN. BTW, a plain jane 68 327 got a first.
It is true in the USA that the East has a strong concentration of cars and clubs, especially around Pennsylvania.
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Phillip
HNR-AACA, Senior Master
Planning 2016 Sentimental Tour, AACA (and restoring a 40 Buick Special for it)
AACA Southeastern Division Spring Meet Chair
"Charlotte AutoFair, presented by the Hornets Nest Region, AACA, is the largest and greatest Collector Vehicle Event in the Southeast USA."
IZRSSS
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 07:41:24 PM »

As I mentioned I am not up to speed on these shows so thanks for filling me in on the matching numbers part. I guess my point is AACA shows attract huge numbers of cars and from what I've read here on CRG, this also includes large numbers of First Gens. This would be the perfect environment for acquiring information. FWIW, I'd be willing to do the same here in NM. How would I go about it, well glad you asked?  Wink

a.   Strike off a conversation. (us First Gen owners have never been known to be short on words) Play coy and just soak in all the details?
b.   Be honest with the owner and let him/her know why you're conducting a “survey”.
c.   If the owner claims the car is genuine, ask if you can take a few pics of the engine pad and other important details (VIN & Trim Tag).
d.   If the owner admits the car is a clone then ask if you can take a few pics of the engine pad, etc.

Phillip – I'm just rambling on here but I think you get the gist of it. Obviously a standard format would have to be developed and agreed upon by all major clubs so there is consistency . Something else would have to be developed so that there is no question the information was given freely by the owners. And perhaps some sort of a hold harmless agreement signed by the owner or whatever legal mumble jumble would be required if any.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 08:09:11 PM by IZRSSS » Logged
tmodel66
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 09:33:12 PM »

Marty don't get me wrong but.... Your tugging on Superman's Cape. If it were to be all-in-one somebody somewhere would loose power and possibly face. That's why you can't get a consensus on a lot of things. 
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Daniel  
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 10:22:31 PM »

Simple solution, stop showing your car. Attend events such as MCACN, Forge Inv. and others. They don't jugde or give out awards. That gets rid of all the stress and BS envolved. Kick back, talk to people, enjoy the machines. Who cares if there is a few bugs in the grill.

Whitecoupe

How'd you guess. I haven't shown the car once this year. Burned out I guess. Its amazing how much effort some of us will put out for a 5 or 10 dollar plaque. What I have missed is visiting with old friends. Your idea might be right up my alley.

Marty don't get me wrong but.... Your tugging on Superman's Cape. If it were to be all-in-one somebody somewhere would loose power and possibly face. That's why you can't get a consensus on a lot of things. 

Not sure I follow you Dan?
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Charley
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2012, 12:53:16 AM »

We do in fact have judging at MCACN.
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lakeholme
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2012, 07:20:25 AM »

Let's not forget how that it was the manufacturer(and the government) who originally stamped the numbers. And if you are determining originality that and documentation are where you'd start.

Hang in there, Marty. I had a conversation with a very qualified judge that was burned out this past weekend. It happens to all of us.
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Phillip
HNR-AACA, Senior Master
Planning 2016 Sentimental Tour, AACA (and restoring a 40 Buick Special for it)
AACA Southeastern Division Spring Meet Chair
"Charlotte AutoFair, presented by the Hornets Nest Region, AACA, is the largest and greatest Collector Vehicle Event in the Southeast USA."
IZRSSS
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2012, 09:09:18 AM »

Phil- I'm not sure how you guys do it year, after year, after year; I've only been at it for 6yrs and showed the Camaro 3 consecutive yrs at 33 shows. I think I just went too gun-hoe (think that's a word) right out of the gate, just needed a break. I'm sure it won't be too much longer before I get that itch again. Smiley
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lakeholme
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2012, 12:13:05 PM »

Good! Glad to hear it.
It's okay to spout off now and then.
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Phillip
HNR-AACA, Senior Master
Planning 2016 Sentimental Tour, AACA (and restoring a 40 Buick Special for it)
AACA Southeastern Division Spring Meet Chair
"Charlotte AutoFair, presented by the Hornets Nest Region, AACA, is the largest and greatest Collector Vehicle Event in the Southeast USA."
IZRSSS
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 12:48:55 PM »

Not spouting off. I'm dead serious about my feelings concerning fake First Gens.
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camaronut
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 06:39:34 PM »

Marty.....don't get too wrapped up in it.......clones are an accepted part of the hobby......unfortunately.
The people who own them buy the same parts you & I do, and keep the hobby going.....fortunately.

The people who sell them and don't tell the unsuspecting buyers is what makes it bad.  I know some folks in the hobby who have done exactly that.....it's on their conscience, not mine.

Folks who appreciate these cars at shows really don't give a rats about the numbers matching thing....its the car they like....and want to be part of the hobby.

My car has the original engine and rear....the Turbo 350 was long gone....I don't consider my car a clone since it is an original SS.....just not lucky...but I enjoy it for what it is.

You have a neat car....enjoy it, and don't stress it! Grin
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Mike S
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2012, 07:33:04 PM »

Hi Marty,

  Burnt out...been there, done that in the late 80's early 90's. After I lost interest in the shows eventually I just began to drive it and not worry about every piece of dirt. I don't know how wide spread the fakes were back then, at least with Camaros, but I enjoyed myself anyhow and didn't worry at all. Luckily for me I knew the history of both my cars when I bought them and at that time people couldn't wait to get rid of gas guzzlers.
  No matter what your interests are, paintings, vintage gun collecting, coins...or anything of value, fakes will always exist as a small percentage of any venue so I am sure cars are the same. So enjoy life as we live it now and frig the fakes and let the new purchasers worry about that. Like anything else we buy we have to research before laying down $$$$$.

 Now, I'm back in the 'hobby' and re-restoring one of my L35's to show again but on a smaller scale and also to just enjoy life while I am healthy, sane and have some $$$ in my pocket. Life takes on new meanings the older one gets. Sure I'm taken back by the reported fakes out there but I step back often and try to view it as a whole and don't see it as rampant as it seems because nobody has yet provided any empirical data one way or the other about how widespread fakes are. To me fakes are here, everywhere, as they were in the past and as they will be in the future so I don't lose sleep over it.

Live and drive for today  Wink

Mike
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67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored
IZRSSS
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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2012, 07:50:59 PM »

Mike & Mike – Appreciate your input; that goes double for Phil and Dan. The issue with the Gold Z has really gotten under my skin and Phil was right; I did have to blow off a little steam. Here's why; I have always thought of Rick Hendricks as this larger than life man who could have lived in Mayberry and passed as Opie’s dad. He is someone I have admired time and time again and then he pulls this stunt. This is his golden opportunity to add to his larger than life personification by doing what's right.
 
On the flip side, I think it's safe to say big brother (CRG) has us covered. I am certain every time a numbers matching clone raises its ugly head CRG is chomping-at-the-bit to document every single detail about the car. The Gold Z is a prime example. It's reassuring to know they'll be here if we need them.
 
Guess I'll get off my high horse. Dang I give up easy.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 08:10:17 PM by IZRSSS » Logged
maroman
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« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2012, 08:46:16 PM »

Marty, I think the problem is 99 percent of the people either don't know or care whether it's real or not. My problem, and I suspect yours too, is that the 1 percent that do know still trys to pull off stuff like this.
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Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new
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