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Author Topic: Fake 69 Olympic Gold Z is back on the market  (Read 5146 times)
lcmc
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« on: June 14, 2012, 06:36:37 PM »

Looks like this Z got pawned off on another sucker.

http://www.nelsonautogroup.com/profile.asp?VIN=124379N5876270000&xMake=&FilterMake=0&zip=&distance=

Previous discussion:

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=8909.0

It also just sold at Mecum Indianapolis auction for 55K.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 07:34:50 PM by lcmc » Logged

Danny
1969 Z/28 X77
1970 Nova L78 9300 original miles
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2012, 07:21:56 PM »

Danny – Your first link was blocked (spam). Serves the seller right IMO. Here it is on the Hendrick site; http://www.hendrickperformance.com/detail-1969-chevrolet-camaro-z_slash_28-used-6761345.html

You'd think someone would have contacted Mr. Hendrix on this issue by now. I seriously doubt he is the type of person who would knowingly try to dump a clone z28 on an unsuspecting buyer. One would assume if he knew the truth he would go after the person that dumped it off on him and fire the employee that is advertising the car on his website. Sure wish someone on here would contact him.


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lcmc
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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2012, 07:40:10 PM »

IZRSSS.....What do you mean my first link was blocked? It works for me.
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Danny
1969 Z/28 X77
1970 Nova L78 9300 original miles
lcmc
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2012, 07:54:05 PM »

This car was talked about on Team Camaro and was suppose to be in the hands of lawyers. How does it the end up at a Mecum auction and get sold again. If I hit the lottery I'll buy the damn thing then blow it all to hell so someone else doesn't get screwed.
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=159042&highlight=124379N587627
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Danny
1969 Z/28 X77
1970 Nova L78 9300 original miles
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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2012, 08:33:38 PM »

This is what I mean Icmc...

Marty
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2012, 08:36:33 PM »

It's not blocked for me. You must have spyware (FunWebProducts) on your computer Marty. You might want to download and run MALWAREBYTES ANTI-MALWARE. (I use the freeware version and that's just fine for me.)

Ed

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IZRSSS
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« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2012, 09:00:15 PM »

My bad.  Smiley

Thanks for the tip Ed. I'll give it a try.
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Hot302
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2012, 12:41:57 PM »

I was in touch with Greg Nelson and he said he just became aware of the history on the car Wednesday. He's not very happy and is trying to get Hendricks to take the car back. Hopefully he can work something out.
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Rick
69 RS/Z28
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lcmc
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2012, 02:22:17 PM »

I was in touch with Greg Nelson and he said he just became aware of the history on the car Wednesday. He's not very happy and is trying to get Hendricks to take the car back. Hopefully he can work something out.

That's funny because I was in there yesterday and acted like I was interested in it. He had no problem showing me the car. I knew it was fake but just wanted to feel him out. Not one word about it being fake. Think on Monday
I'll go back in and point a few things out and see where he is then.
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Danny
1969 Z/28 X77
1970 Nova L78 9300 original miles
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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2012, 03:59:12 PM »

Keep me updated on that Danny. I'd be interested to see what he says. Maybe he was just feeding me a line of BS. You would think a guy with a business like his would do a little research before buying a car like that. It's getting to the point you don't know who to trust any more.
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Rick
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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2012, 04:55:12 PM »

Looks like its no longer "in stock".

Being a fake, I'd love to have that thing to beat around on the street.  Smiley
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2012, 09:28:26 PM »

I think the whole car is a clone.  I had done a report on it back in 2009.  Nice looking car but it's not real or worth $60K.

Jerry
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« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2012, 07:46:38 AM »

Jerry – You’ve represented several clients over the years on similar cases. Can you shed some light as to who is liable? Would it only be the folks that actually cloned the vehicle, or would it also involve everyone who knowingly sold the vehicle under false pretence? My guess is all the above. Problem is how do you prove the later?

Bryan Shook...can you commit?
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2012, 09:37:01 AM »

Here's a response back from HMS after my inquiry. KIM its automated. I'll let you know if and when I get a response from Mr. Potter.
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2012, 11:45:07 AM »

Dictionary definitions of Fraud:
1) deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
2) deliberate deception, trickery, or cheating intended to gain an advantage

Although the legal definition may vary from state to state, basically fraud is 'knowingly deceiving someone for the purposes of gaining an advantage over them, or which 'injures' them in some fashion'.

Representing any items falsely (and knowingly) for sale/profit is fraud.   if the seller doesn't *know* the car is a fake, then he is just ignorant, and not necessarily fraudulent.

building a 'clone' for one's own purposes is not fraudulent (No one is being deceived? and No one is being 'injured')..  at least not until the builder attempts to sell it under false pretenses!
 
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
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lcmc
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« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2012, 12:38:27 PM »

Whoever had the fake documents made up is the first person responsible. They committed the fraud first. You would not have false documents made up for a clone. They would only be made for one purpose and that would be to deceive.
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Danny
1969 Z/28 X77
1970 Nova L78 9300 original miles
BillOhio
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« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2012, 02:28:57 PM »

I emailed HMS when they had it and out sounded like others had too. They had to have known. First thing I saw I  knew something was up. I am sure if anyone had seen it in person would have said the same thing I did. There is a black z on Ebay that had been on before and no saled at mecum indy. I ask the owner what was up with the tag and he said it was real and he knew the original owner. I think its a march d80. Very rare z!! Other thing I didn't like, his feedback showed buying a fake 57 Chevy tag

The gold car needs find a 327 and new fake tag
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1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
maroman
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« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2012, 03:29:53 PM »

Whoever had the fake documents made up is the first person responsible. They committed the fraud first. You would not have false documents made up for a clone. They would only be made for one purpose and that would be to deceive.
Rational people would think this way. If you remember the blue convertible Z that was built had ALL the paperwork. I honestly think he did it for his own  kicks, which is fine. Somewhere down the road fake anything becomes real when $$ is involved.
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Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new
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« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2012, 08:02:16 AM »

The sad reality is someone looks for the next sucker to unload the car onto. It's clear this car has been around and in some high end collections so it managed to play the part well. Also appears when the owner did some digging around they got the bad apple out of the bunch, this will not be the last we hear from this one.
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Sonny

1969 Z28 Camaro
1970 Z28 Camaro

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lcmc
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« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2012, 09:29:07 AM »

The car needs to have a new vin issued with a builders title. That is the only way to end things short of crushing it.
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Danny
1969 Z/28 X77
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« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2012, 10:11:18 AM »

I would still like to hear from the man himself, Mr. Hendrick. But until I do I have to assume he is just as much to blame as everyone else. This man has one of the most extensive classic car collections in the country and if anyone should know a fake it should be him, or at the very least his classic car curator or consultant. If I were him with unlimited resources this is what I’d do;

a.   Suck it up and admit I was scammed.
b.   Fire my classic car curator/consultant.
c.   Put my high powered attorney to work, financially dismembering everyone involved from the a-hole that instigated this fraud to the person/persons I purchased it from.
d.   Post all the findings on my website including the names of all individuals responsible.
e.   Take this great looking Z28 Clone and raffle it off. Donate all of the proceeds to the charity of my choice and write it off.

So what if I’m short 60k. That’s chump change for me. Heck, I pay more than that for pit tires in one race!

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lcmc
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« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2012, 10:34:47 AM »

So you raffle it off then someone wins it and it starts all over again. Car needs a new vin and title or it never stops.
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Danny
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« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2012, 10:47:07 AM »

Whatever it takes dude!
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77thor
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« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2012, 11:50:59 AM »


Apparently it's no longer in stock.
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Fred - Milwaukee, WI
1969 Camaro SS350, M21, 12 Bolt, (01B LOS Build)
BillOhio
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« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2012, 12:47:31 PM »

I was by there last night and its still sitting in same place.
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1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
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« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2012, 02:30:50 PM »

Be interesting to see if you walked in there if they would continue to try to pass it off as an original.
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Rick
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BillOhio
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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2012, 03:28:55 PM »

  I don't think they knew any different. They didn't sell stuff like this and had no idea with the fake documents. I saw it and the paper with looked old. I didn't like 2 things on the tag and the block had no broach marks. I looked at alot of cars this winter and starting to see weird stuff. I hope the right thing is done and no one else is screwed by this car. I bought a 396 rs ss 25 years ago that was a cloned car and didn't know. Guy lied to me and it makes you mad. Money was alot less then.
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1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
maroman
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« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2012, 04:41:12 PM »

There are tons of people that think it's OK to restamp or "build" what you want with colors or options, that no one will ever know. Sooner or later the truth comes out or the story gets forgotten. IMO, too many clubs allow this too, won't go into names. To me an award is meaningless from those clubs. I'd rather see an original in driver condition then a perfect fake.
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Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new
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« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2012, 05:06:55 PM »

Doug – Those clubs just like the people who clone with intentions of deceiving should be exposed as well. I had no idea there were clubs out there that condone these acts. Kurt hit the nail on the head a while back when he commented no one is above reproach. Any and all individuals, regardless of their stature in the collector car world or otherwise should be exposed for what they are; that above the law mentality really stinks up the hobby!

Does anyone know who currently owns the car? And my second question; Can anyone tell what the donor car was?
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BillOhio
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« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2012, 06:12:04 PM »

Its still at Nelson. wonder if the hidden vin is gone? Would Jerry have looked for it?
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1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
400guy
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« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2012, 09:49:26 AM »

OK, I am the unsuspecting "sucker" that acquired the car @ Mecum and BillOhio from the forum was the individual who made us aware the car is actually a clone. It has been removed from our inventory and I am in process of attempting to unwind the purchase. I had no idea the car was a phony and I trusted the paperwork and particularly that it was a Hendricks car. I couldn't imagine that they would represent a fake. A special thanks to BillOhio for enlightening me about this.
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Doug Trotter
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« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2012, 10:36:38 AM »

There should be accountability here but it appears that there is none.  Especially since this car has been a known fake now for several years.  I am just amazed at the "spin" that sellers put on these fake cars.  It's incredible.  No one knows anything.  I would think that Mecum would do a little homework on cars that they sell.  If this keeps up, their reputation will be in the crapper.  It happens every year too.

I think Troy in our group told me that he told HMS that this car was a fake when they were trying to sell it.  Maybe you can chime in here Troy. 

We also have another fake '67 Z28 clone that was bought at Mecum two years ago.  It's in my shop now.  It took my client a lot of time and effort to make that deal right.  It's a shame that the hobby has come to this.   These are only a small sample of what goes on out there in the auction world. 

Jerry
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BillOhio
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« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2012, 02:05:43 PM »

Good luck 400guy. I was disappointed to see the tag and imagine it made you feel alot worse. I had emailed Hendricks when they had it on Ebay asking about the tag. Never heard back. It is a nice car that someone put alot of work into. I saw so much strange stuff at mecum in Florida last year, I was ready to give up on finding a Camaro.
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1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
paceme
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« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2012, 03:41:45 PM »

This car seems familiar (not positive). I was contacted about 4 years ago from a guy in NJ who owned a gold 69 Z and he asked my advice regarding the trim tag and I stated it was fake. He got upset via email and stated I was wrong and other "experts" (never mentioned whom) stated the car was authentic. His emails started getting nasty so I stopped communicating. I think Kurt may have been involved or may remember.

Regarding auctions houses, none that I'm aware of represent the cars, but use the written information/description submitted by the owner. There is a lot of legalese in the auction contract which states the seller is responsible for the accuracy of the description and authenticity of the car period. I think if the auction house is notified prior to the auction about the legitimacy of a car then they have some responsibility. Some of these auctions have 2000 being sold and it would be virtually impossible for them to verify and validate and they are only there to put a buyer and seller together. For me I would only feel comfortable if I had known a car being sold at an auction, or if the owner had bullet proof provenance on the vehicle before purchasing. I will say tens of thousands of cars are sold annually with the overwhelming majority of buyers very satisfied. The property law doctrine Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware), holds true when purchasing anything.
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Steve Shauger
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« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2012, 06:25:31 PM »

400guy- I sure hope things work out for the best. Hindsight is 2020 but if you ever go down that road again, run the numbers by the experts on this sight. It'll be worth your while.  Wink

Please keep us posted.
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william
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« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2012, 07:25:28 PM »

This could prove interesting and expensive if it gets to court. The plantiff will have to "prove" the car is in fact NOT a Z/28. Without genuine original documents, there may be no way to determine its orignal configuration. It could be a real Z/28 that was missing the body tag so a replacement was acquired during the restoration.

For every expert the plantiff brings, the defense will bring one. @ $500/hr.

The first repro Z/28 body tag I knew of went onto a '70 Z28. The owner disliked the original color and restored it in red. Copied the OE tag; just changed the color. Still a Z28.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2012, 08:07:03 PM »

There is no question Doug will be going up against a powerful man. And there is no question Mr. Hendricks knows Nascar, but does he or his advisors poses the same knowledge CRG’s heavy hitters poses when it comes to First Gens? I think not. The question is; will these gentlemen be willing to help?

Doug has already done his part by removing the car from his inventory. My hope is that it never goes to court and Mr. Hendricks follows Doug's lead by doing what's right.
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rat pack
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« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2012, 02:05:59 PM »

I spoke to James Potter back before Christmas regarding this car and a couple others they had for sale. When we spoke I asked him what happened to Jerry's paperwork and he point blank stated "I don't know what you are talking about, and who is Jerry MacNeish?" I went to explain to him who Jerry is/was, and that the car they are selling is a known clone. He said that was news to him and that he would check into it. My gut feeling was that he knew of Jerry, and also that they possibly had Jerry's report. The car was removed from their site within a day or so after I mentioned that to him. When he called me back regarding a couple other cars, he said that the gold car was no longer for sale. Rick bought the car as a "real" Z at the 2010 Palm Beach B-J auction and gave close to $60k for it then. So it has been sold twice as a "real" Z since it was discovered it wasn't real by Jerry in 2009. So what transpired after the first guy "xramcamaro2" discovered it was a fake Z? Was he the one that consigned it to B-J to be sold? If so, then he would be the one liable when it is all said and done.............RatPack..............
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Just keep livin......L I V I N .............
lcmc
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« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2012, 08:26:31 PM »

This could prove interesting and expensive if it gets to court. The plantiff will have to "prove" the car is in fact NOT a Z/28. Without genuine original documents, there may be no way to determine its orignal configuration. It could be a real Z/28 that was missing the body tag so a replacement was acquired during the restoration.

For every expert the plantiff brings, the defense will bring one. @ $500/hr.

The first repro Z/28 body tag I knew of went onto a '70 Z28. The owner disliked the original color and restored it in red. Copied the OE tag; just changed the color. Still a Z28.

You don't have to prove it's not a Z. My argument in court would be I paid a premium for a matching numbers car with documentation and it's not.
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Danny
1969 Z/28 X77
1970 Nova L78 9300 original miles
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« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2012, 06:45:24 AM »

Any updates on the status of this car?

Found it here; http://www.facebook.com/pages/TrotterLLC/113293652035356  and here; HM; http://www.hendrickperformance.com/detail-1969-chevrolet-camaro-z_slash_28-used-6761345.html

But not here (HM); http://www.hendrickperformance.com/classic-cars.aspx?
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Kelley W King
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« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2012, 07:16:32 AM »

I think someone should buy it for 40,000 and put Hookers and Flowmasters on it and drive the thing. If someone wanted to buy it tell them what you know or don,t. It looks to be a nice ride.
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lcmc
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« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2012, 11:58:07 AM »

Stopped in at Nelson's today. They still have the car but pulled it off the market. They are trying to get the whole mess resolved.
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Danny
1969 Z/28 X77
1970 Nova L78 9300 original miles
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« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2012, 05:47:48 PM »

Thanks for the update Danny.
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400guy
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« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2012, 08:09:29 PM »

I am happy to report that the Z has been sent back to Hendrick and I have been made "whole & full". They were very easy to work with and I have concluded the only way to ever consider purchasing a Z28 in the future would be to consult Jerry.
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Doug Trotter
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« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2012, 08:35:50 PM »

Great to hear they did the right thing for you. Now let's see how they handle the car.
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