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Author Topic: Chambered Exhaust Option - 69 Z  (Read 5892 times)
TX-302
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« on: March 27, 2012, 09:36:43 PM »

I have a 69 Z with a build date of 05A with the transverse muffler system. I'm considering switching to a gardner chambered exhaust system and was wondering if the car's build date was within the correct factory timeline for cars installed with that option? Can someone provide the actual date when the chambered exhaust option became available on the 69Z?

Thanks
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Steve
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2012, 09:54:03 PM »

Look under the NC8 option description on the CRG option list.
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Phillip
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jmcbeth
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2012, 09:57:56 PM »

According to Jerry MacNeish's book, the chambered exhaust was deleted from standard production on November 25, 1968. The standard then became the cross flow muffler that you have. On approximately May 15, 1969, resonators were added to the cross flow system. My '69 Z with build date 09C, has the resonators.
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John
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« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2012, 12:15:29 AM »

If anyone with an early '69 Z28 is interested, I have an NOS set of chambered pipes, stored indoors since purchase from GM in '76.   I found out my car is too late to have had them...  I'm open to any interesting trades for other parts, as it makes no sense for me to keep them longer.

Gary / 69Z28-RS
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
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william
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« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2012, 06:08:00 AM »

When chambered exhaust was dropped as standard equipment Nov '68 it became optional for Z/28, L34, L78.

05A would have just made the timeline for chambered. When chrome tailpipes were added as standard equipment mid-May '69, chambered was dropped as an option.
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Dave69x33
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2012, 11:00:31 AM »

jmcbeth,

I have a 05A Norwood built '69Z.  My car had headers and "turbo" mufflers when I purchased it.  During the restoration (1995 - 2000), I replace the complete exhaust system with stock manifolds and a transverse muffler system based on my homework and the info from Jerry M's book.  At that time I did the restoration, I could not find resonators so I installed the supplied "resonator by-pass" pipes. 

Are your resonators original GM or NOS units?

Do they quite your exhaust note considerably?  Maybe you could post a video clip on You Tube and give us a heads up when you post it???

Could you post a couple of pictures?

Has anyone had their '69 Camaro built on or after May '69, judged at a Camaro Nationals, Carlisle, etc., and how did they judge your car based on the resonators?

Thanks in advance for your feedback!

Dave

PS: It interesting to read in Jerry M's book that GM increased the base price of the '69 Camaro as they made the muffler system changes and added chrome exhaust pipe tips.
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jmcbeth
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« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2012, 12:31:42 PM »

Dave,

I purchased my exhaust system from Gardner Exhaust Systems. It is a factory correct reproduction, including the correct clamps and hangers. At the time, they sold two versions, one made of stainless steel for concours show purposes and a lower cost one. Based on advice from Jerry, I purchased the stainless one. After installing, I went through Legends Class judging at nationals and lost no points for the exhaust system. It looks fabulous!

With regard to sound, you do loose some decibels, but I was very committed to the correct system.

I will have my Z on the lift this weekend and will take some photos and maybe a video.

I really liked the guys at Gardner. They were very friendly and helpful on the phone and they did a fabulous job of packaging the system.
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John
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Steve Barndt
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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2012, 06:46:43 PM »

I think the option was available on a state by state basis. In Pa after the recall or end date or whatever if you took your chamber pipe car back to the dealer you would get it back with the crossover setup on it without notice and dealers that didnt want trouble with the garage inspectors never offered them again. I had 3 friends with chambered pipes cars 2 Z'z and a 396. The big block car is a barn car locally and still has the pipes. The Z's both had their systems removed when the cars were back for service. As an interesting aside the one Z was back for a blown engine. It had a 2 bolt main block in it.
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asm69
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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2012, 08:57:21 PM »

Was the owner of the 69z the original owner
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Steve Barndt
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2012, 06:45:45 AM »

 I think the car was a showroom floor car at Heimbach & Sweat Chevy in Pennsburg Pa.  The guy who bought it beat the tar out of it and blew it up street racing the other Z I mentioned. (Z's werent too hot on the street unless you had 4.88's in them back in the day. They wouldnt touch a 350SS w 4.10's. It wasnt what they were built for). We towed it into the local GMC garage put it on a lift, slid the pan back, saw the busted rod and the 2 bolt mains. Took it back to Heimbach. It came back with a crate motor and crossover exhaust and it was the first we heard of the pipe issue. The Z that blew was dark green on black. The other one was the same with a white interior. That car just "popped" when you looked at it. Gorgeous.
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jmcbeth
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2012, 09:05:13 AM »

I think I would have been extremely unhappy if I went back to pick up my car after service to learn that my exhaust system had been changed out. Wouldn't you?
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John
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2012, 05:29:09 PM »

whether you were happy or not had nothing to do with it at the time. Pa had had a governor named Lawrence who had 2 sons killed in a car wreck that he blamed on the car. He instituted a twice a year inspection system in Pa with stingent details on how equipment was supposed to be. These werent the drive thrus some states had. Cars on lifts, wheels pulled. The chambered pipes did not meet the requirements and the dept of motor vehicles declared them illegal. However it was real tough to enforce unless you were a dealer. Tire size regs, rocker panel height regs, exhaust regs . To street race back then in pa you needed a real friendly inspection station, midnight inspections, hot stickers, or you had to swap parts twice a year. It was controlled by the garage inspectors who were members of the Pa State Police. If you were an inspection station you didnt want a hot car with a fresh sticker on it in your parking lot when the garage inspector showed up.

I could never quite figure out how vette side pipes made the cut because chambered pipes is what they were too.
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jmcbeth
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2012, 09:12:23 PM »

Steve,

Incredbile story! Thanks for sharing. I now understand.

John
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John
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Dave69x33
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2012, 11:46:00 AM »

Steve,

Your story is interesting.  The pervious owner of my '69 Z28 purchased the car in his home state of Connecticut in 1989.  He has lived in Indianapolis for many years where I live.  I purchased the Camaro from him in 1995 and started the restoration, which at that time, the car only had 44,851 miles.  The 1989 emission decal from Connecticut was in the front windshield with a "FAIL SEP 18 89" stamp.  The car had headers and an aftermarket exhaust system, and the carb was jetted rich.  So, now wonder it failed the emission check! For fun, I attached a picture of this decal. The document in the background was my title search and attempts to fine the owner history which came back “No record of ownership exists for the follow described motor vehicle..."

During the late 1990s, I attended the Camaro Nationals in Pigeon Forge, TN to look at well restored cars, and studied two ’69 SS Camaros side-by-side.  One was a survivor with its original GM chambered system and the other car with a repro system.  The difference in sound between these chambered systems was remarkable.  The repro system sound much more poppy and did not have the same deep tone as the original system.  The original system obviously has many years and miles on which may have been a factor.  Gardner’s system should be a good system and should sound very close to an original GM system.  So anyone wishing to purchase a chambered system, I highly recommend the system from Gardner versus a cheaper alternative system.

Back to the resonators: at the time I resorted my car, Gardner Exhaust was either not in business or not well known.  I purchased my complete transverse muffler exhaust system (again, my car is a 05A car) from the former Rick's First Gen. It was a nice system but does not compare to the Gardner systems available today.  I searched for a long time for resonators but none were available, so I had to install the resonator by-pass pipes.

A year ago, I contacted Gardner to ask about purchasing resonators but they only sell complete systems.  Heartbeat City Camaro Parts currently has a set of NOS resonators, G/M #3909959, for $1,750.  Here is link to the website and item: http://www.heartbeatcitycamaro.com/store/product/22785/Camaro-NOS-Exhaust-resonators-3909959-69/.  If my car was a #s matching rare car that was never driven, this might be a good investment.  I attempted to verify the #3909959 part number but the ’69 assembly manual shows them in the illustration, but does not call out the resonator part numbers on page 388, for the dual exhaust N10 option.

Jmcbeth,

I look forward to seeing pictures of your exhaust system and hopefully some details shots of your resonators.  I have several sound bites of my car’s exhaust sound w/o the resonators and would like to hear yours with the resonators in a side-by-side comparison.  Gardner’s website provides a number of sound bites, but I am not sure if the “1969 Camaro Z28 Deep Tone” sound bite includes the resonators.  I intend to call them to ask.
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tmodel66
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2012, 01:31:40 PM »

I recently put the Gardner "Deep Tone""system on my '69 L48 and I couldn't ask for a better sound. It has a nice rumble with the small cam I put in but is quiet on the inside. All the noise goes out the back. One other thing it don't have that drone sound that is normally associated with dual exhaust. 
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Daniel  
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« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2012, 01:23:20 PM »

Here are promised pics of Gardner exhaust with resonators.
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John
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« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2012, 01:24:25 PM »

And a couple more. (Will post link to video once I figure out how to upload to youtube.)
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John
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« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2012, 01:57:03 PM »

And, here's what it sounds like:

http://youtu.be/8PMF8311ACA

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John
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« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2012, 07:18:58 PM »

I have a set of resonators which I purchased in 76 from GM with my chambered system I mistakenly believed they went with that system. Having no use for them I welded  a set of header reducers on the inlets and used them a couple of times to test an open header car on the street. I'm pretty sure that the reducers can be cut off without hurting the resonators. If anyone can use them, I'll dig them out and take a look to be sure. Send me a PM or e-mail if you can use them.
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Dave69x33
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« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2012, 08:13:16 PM »

jmbeth,

Thank you for posting the pictures of your exhaust system and YouTube sound clip.  Your car looks and sounds great!  This is the first time I have heard a ’69 Z28 with stock exhaust and resonators.

I just played your YouTube sound clip side-by-side with my system and they are very similar.  Your system with the resonators is a bit quieter than mine without resonators, but not by much.  If we were to run our cars side-by-side, I am sure the tone would be more noticeable.

My idle characteristic is slightly different due to my recent motor rebuild and cam selection.  My car is not a numbers matching Z28, and has a replacement "DZ" engine, so I decided to update the valve train to a full mechanical roller Comp Cams #12-770-8, "XR274R.  The cam's 110 deg lobe separation, lift, and the intake and exhaust duration allow for very nice and usable RPM range of 2200 - 6200.  I am very happy with the power this cam provides and it is very drivable.  My goal was to retain the stock mechanical lifter sound, and keep the stock valve covers, so the engine look and sounds very stock. 

Again...great job with your car!

Dave
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jmcbeth
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« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2012, 09:53:55 PM »

Dave,

Thanks. How about posting a link to your sound clip? I'll bet the idle sounds very different with oyur cam. Mine is all correct factory components and hence the "smooth" sound.

Best,

John
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John
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« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2012, 11:07:53 AM »

jmcbeth,

I had planned to do that, and I will try to get this done this weekend or very soon.  I have several sound clips but I did them solo and you see me walk from behind the camera to start and idle the car, pull into the garage, shut off the engine and then walk back to the camera to shut it off.  I am not able to edit the sound clip and I need to get an assistant to help as you did.

Prior to rebuilding my engine, I searched and searched but could not find a sound clip of a Camaro Z28 302 with this cam.  Your "stock" set-up and my "modified - stock" set-up will provide a unique side-by-side comparison!

Regards,

Dave 
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mickeystoys69RSSS
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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2012, 05:10:53 PM »

Quick question about the chambered exhausts. Do they have part numbers stamped on them anywhere including the ones for the big blocks. Mine has a chambered exhause system installed and the build date is 11C so it is before the change. I am just trying to document my car as much as possible thanks.
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2012, 10:02:09 PM »

The chambered pipes I purchased have the standard GM 'paper labels' wrapped around the pipes (with Part numbers).. the PN's are not stamped into the pipes (to my knowledge)..

Gary
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
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60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
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72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
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« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2012, 09:51:41 AM »

Mine are installed in the car so there are no paper wrappers. Thanks.
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Dave69x33
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« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2012, 07:25:12 PM »

jmcbeth,

I finally was able to take and edit a sound bite of my '69 Z28 with stock exhaust w/o resonators.  My 302 is "relatively" stock but as I mentioned earlier in this discuss thread, I decided to upgrade the valve train to a full roller cam and roller rockers from Comp Cams as I had specified. 

I just posted the sound bite on You Tube: http://youtu.be/bSGjLtTmmls

I'll submit another post on CRG titled "Stock 1969 Z28 Sound Bites" with links to both our sound bite so it will be easier to find in the future.  If some else has Gardner Exhaust’s chambered system on a stock '69 Z28, please post a similar sound bite.  This will provide an interesting side-by-side comparison with jmcbeth's stock transverse muffler system with resonators.

Thanks!

Dave
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jmcbeth
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« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2012, 08:33:01 PM »

Dave,

Very, very nice sound. I love the cam! I think it sounds very different from the std cam and resonators. It would be great to have these sound bites in one place so everyone can listen to the difference.

Best,

John
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John
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« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2012, 08:39:00 PM »

My 1969 Z that I purchased new in Tionesta PA , had chambered exhaust. Yes several times the state police questioned them and issued tickets , but told me that they would check with the Chevy dealer and if they were stock they would withdraw the tickets. They did and that was the end of it. I never went to a LICKem and STICKem inspection station, the chambers and headers always passed. The only other exhaust noise problem arose when I removed the rear over the axle part of the exhaust and directed the pipes to the side. It was OMG loud and I was busted, I had to put them back on.
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firstgenaddict
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2012, 10:01:16 AM »

Here is a link to a Gardner Chambered system on the car I am finishing up right now.
10D (Early) 1969 Z28, std bore, NOS cam, honed for new rings and crank polished new bearings.

Only change is using JOHNZ's distributor and carb settings.
Idling at 900 RPMs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=-wX9IZQiVh8&feature=endscreen
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James
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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2012, 10:59:25 AM »

Great videos Dave and James, gotta love the sound of Chambered exhaust. James it looks like the car is almost complete, you need to update your TC thread with some pics.
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Sonny

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« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2012, 12:22:33 PM »

I like the sound of this one on the road a bit better (than static idling).. Smiley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jhPqN0zAI8

Gary
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
mickeystoys69RSSS
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« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2012, 04:59:30 PM »

Is there any difference in sound of the chambered system due to the solid lifter cam of the Z vs. the hydraulic of the BB cars?
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Steve68
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« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2012, 05:04:03 PM »

The L78 is a solid lifter engine too.
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mickeystoys69RSSS
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« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2012, 10:51:40 AM »

The L78 is a solid lifter engine too.

You are right. I was asking about the L34 and L35 more specifically.
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« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2012, 12:13:18 PM »

The indicated redlines are higher on the solid lifter engines, and the 'actual' redlines are higher yet.. Smiley..   So if you are asking if they *sound differently* at redline...   yes..  Smiley .. 
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
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« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2012, 01:16:43 PM »

I am interested in the chambered exh. pipes you have, i have an early chambered exh. Z28 , it still has chambered exh. on it ,
please contact me to discuss what you have,
thanks, 
Mike
618-316-4755,,cell
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69 Z28
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« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2013, 12:04:25 PM »

'Red69' and I worked out a deal, so that he received my NOS chambered pipes, and I got something I needed for my late '69 Z28 (a very nice pair of GM resonators which late Z-cars received).   And the shipping worked great too, between Bama and Wash state, which is a marvel in itself!... Smiley   Since my original exhaust pipes were cut for headers, I need to find a good original pair of head pipes and I'd be set with all-factory original GM exhaust...  Smiley

PS.  Reading this old thread, someone asked why the '69 Camaro chambered exhaust had so much trouble meeting noise standards (in PA and maybe elsewhere?), whereas the mid year Corvettes seemed not to have as much problem and they use the same muffling technology.   I'd never considered that before, but  *Maybe* it had to do with the single point decibel meters, and both Camaro exhaust pipes coming out the rear, and the corvette having side exhaust (you really don't get the full effect from a single side or the back)... 
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
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