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Author Topic: Your worst 1st generation Camaro fears - realized  (Read 13556 times)
nuch_ss396
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« on: July 01, 2006, 09:20:13 AM »

Hey everybody!

I just finished watching a segment of Chop-Cut-Rebuild on Speed.  The project of choice was the creation ( re-creation ) of a Z-10
using the Dyna-Corn ( spelling? ) body and all aftermarket sheet metal.  While this is nothing new, what the narrator of the show advised is what
took me by surprise.

They clearly stated that getting the body together is the first step.  Secondly, you must get the car registered for the road.  Their suggestion
was to re-body an old Camaro.   Is that not totally illegal?  I know we have talked before about attaching "certain pieces" of original sheet
metal to one of these bodies and that this might constitute a restoration vs. a re-body.  However, if the entire shell is new metal and you
simply ( actually, no so simple ) attach an original firewall and upper dash ( containing VIN & cowl tag ), does this still not constitute a re-body?
Now, to be totally clear, this show featured the use of a new firewall.  So, that only leaves them the illegal option to attach a VIN plate & cowl
tag to this body.  Oh yeah, they did mention checking with your states DMV first on this.  But, it was not emphasized! Shocked  The blunt suggestion
of doing a re-body really shocked me.

As has been discussed numerous times, you can not legally sell or affix a VIN plate to another car.  We all know it's been done before! Roll Eyes 
Yes, eBay allows the selling of cowl tags for "collecting" purposes Roll Eyes, but you can't sell VIN plates there or anywhere else for that matter.
Based on that premise, how then can you legally re-body one of these Dyna-Corn kits?

I still hold the position that those knowledgeable will be able to tell the Dyna-Corn bodies from originals.  My concern lies with the  less
than knowledgeable folks that seem to be flocking to eBay & Barrett-Jackson these days. 

What do you guys think about the shows suggestion of doing a re-body of the VIN & cowl tag? Huh Roll Eyes

Steve
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2006, 02:22:48 PM »

If it isn't illegal it definitely is not ethical. Angry

Ethics, though, is something you ususally don't learn - your either have them or you don't.  Sounds like the CCR camp doesn't.  I watch CCR from time to time, haven't seent this series though.  Thanks for the heads up.

One other suggestion would be for all of us to flood the show's e-mail and contact  web links with our opinions.

Richard
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2006, 04:08:29 PM »

Basically, that makes it an improperly registered kit car, doesn't it?!?

We should protest, but they don't make it easy to email them!
Both the Speed website and the press releases for CCR do not give a direct email address.  You have to fill out a request form
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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2006, 12:33:57 AM »

These bastard car frames cannot be sold without licensed approval from the government to the manufacturer. Just as the old Allis-Chalmers "diamond" logo could not be legally reproduced until the license expired, so goes the 1-st Generation Camaro. My state (North Carolina) sets the parameters on registration, and a repro '69 Camaro would be subject to the "new title" law, just like a homebuilt fiberglass '32 highboy from a kit. One who would pirate a firewall tag from an original GM car to circumvent the registration process is clearly in violation of the law. The very name of the show "Chop-Cut-Rebuild" is a clue....duh. I defend their right of Free Speech and don't see what's that bad about reproducing a '69 Camaro, but that they would recommend sleazy ways of sidestepping registration laws is certainly unethical and just lowbrow no class.
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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2006, 11:40:14 AM »

what is differnt from changing the dash panel (where these cars often rust) when you have to remove the vin tag anyway?
vs chanhing the entire body...

currently. you can just about buy every new panel to replace on a first gen....

so while i do not agree that it is ethical...many people restor these cars where every single needs to be replaced anyway...is that not also considered a rebody?..new fenders.new quarters. new doors. new dash. etc...

if youve ever seen one of those bodies. youd want tofix your original...nothing lines up and you wind up having to do more fit work than it would take to hang new sheetmetal anyway. lol
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nuch_ss396
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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2006, 02:36:40 PM »

A couple of comments here:

aaronz28 - I did just see one of these kits loosely assembled @ the GM Nationals in Carlisle.  The lack of quality fit really floored me.  For me, of most note was the
front grill mounting surfaces encompassing the header panel and the fenders.  The angles were all wrong!  Also, this assembled kit did not include the grill ( installed )
as I believe it would have clearly pointed out just how bad this flaw is.  From my initial observation, the fit between panels leaves a lot to be desired.  I also saw another
re-build show a few months ago and they built one of these kits as well.  Now, to be fair, they did a nice job in the end.  However, they beat on every panel to line them
up.  They also welded door skins to set the gaps to the fenders properly.  They also welded the decklid perimeter in a number of areas to adjust the fit.  I suspect they
did the same to the hood/fender fit.  All in all, a lot of extra expensive work.......

As to your comment regarding the bebody scenario, let me offer this.  Many years ago, when I restored my Camaro, the only original sheet metal pieces I kept
were the cowl section, the floorpan, the trunk & roof.  Everything else was new GM metal.  I will never consider this a rebody as the VIN & cowl tags never left
the cowl section.  Your point is well taken.  What exactly does constitute a rebody?  I still don't know.  I'd like to get many members to input on this debate.

aaronz28 - I'm in NC also.  I'm fairly new here, so I can't cite current DMV laws.  As I mentioned in the opening thread, the blatant suggestion of doing a rebody
( VIV & cowl tags ) is what really took me by surprise.  I would have thought they would skirt that whole issue on the show.  Rergardless of what state they build
this kit in, is not the affixing of a VIN tag to a body it was not originally attached to - illegal?

Steve
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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2006, 04:41:03 PM »

you hit the nail on the head with the new kits...
they fit is a joke and there is more wrong than right in my opinion...

as far as a rebody is concerned,  where is the line as to what is a rebody and what isn't a rebody?...
if all you have left by the time you replace each panel is the roof,  cowl, and firewall,... then you hardly have a body left.

and in most cases, these cars rot out right at the bottom of the winshield requiring a new dash anyway... I don't think anyone even second guesses when a vin plate has been re-installed on a new dash panel do they?

so if you replace each and every body panel, dash, including floorboards, fillers, etc. how is this not considered rebodying a car? only thing left would be the roof (unless we are talking convertible) and firewall, both of which could be replaced fairy easily if needed to be in a restoration.


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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2006, 08:53:51 PM »

I would have to say that it would be intent. If you are trying to salvage every possible piece of an original car possible... whether it is all but the 1/4's or whether it is only the roof structure and A pillars... then you would not be doing anything unethical. However if you were trying to take the "easy" way by drilling out a few rivets and attaching them to a new body then you would be guilty of a rebody... anyone... Bueller... anyone... JMHO
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« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2006, 07:58:00 AM »

Morality aside, I don't believe that it would be illegal to attach a VIN to a new body.  You should look at the spirit of the law and not the technicality of it.  The law does not want re-VIN's to in order to prevent the theft and fraud of a stolen car and possible resale of it.  The law wants to avoid there being a victim (the guy whose car was taken and re-vin'd).  However, the rebody scenario described above includes a person legitimately buying a shell and taking a VIN from a car he owns and installing it.  There is NO victim.  Even if the VIN laws are violated, I would be surprised if 1.) a cop actually found out about this.  How would he?  2.)a cop, upon finding out, who would actually file a formal charge with the state attorney's office, and 3.) the state attorney actually moving forward with the charge and not dropping the charge (no file).  There are way too many actual vehicle thefts that most legal systems can barely deal with them let alone this victimless crime.  No harm no foul.  Putting together a dynacorn body without a donor VIN merely means you have to apply for a VIN from the motor vehicle in your state as you would a kit car. 

A good question would be if I built a dynacorn body and had not yet installed a VIN on it, would it be or at what point would this be grand theft auto or simply theft of property?  Hmmmm.

Just putting in my 2 cents.
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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2006, 11:12:06 AM »

Good point about the original intent of the VIN laws.  Probably time to update that legislation.  In my opinion there is absolutely no acceptable (or legal/ethical) reason to ever transfer a VIN # from one car to the other.  The VIN # plate should never leave the piece of sheet metal it was originally attached to.  I don't believe we can simply set the ethical issue aside.  The reason we have laws to govern our behavior in the first place is because too many people want to set aside "ethics".   If people weren't people, we wouln't need nearly so many laws to govern how we treat one another.

If the VIN # is transferred to a different car, somewhere down the line, if not today, then with a subsequent owner later, someone will get taken.  Nothing wrong with building a clone or a "crate Camaro", but if you are going to do so have the b _ _ _ s to publicly state what it is - no reason to stick on some other car's VIN #.  My suggestion would be to put the salvaged VIN plate in your memoribillia collection, don't put it on the car.

As an aside, earlier post mentioned another build of a crate Camaro on a different show.  One other show I've been watching where the same thing is happening is Muscle Car on Spike TV on Saturdays.  To date, I haven't heard this group talk about trying to use a previous VIN #.  I assume they plan on registering it (a convertible) as a new car.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 11:17:41 AM by rich69rs » Logged

Richard Thomas
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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2006, 12:30:45 AM »

Ive never done it, nor have I read through the legislation, but I know a few salvage guys around here and VIN swaps CAN be legal.  Have to call out a state trooper to witness the swap and fill out the necessary paperwork.  I dont know what effect it has on the title.

That being said, most probaby do not do this.  If this legal route was taken, there would be paperwork attached to the car that said the VIN had been swapped, therefore leaving many questions about it.

It isnt uncommon when wrecked newer cars are "clipped", but when it pertains to collector cars in which originality and integrity is important, it opens up a lot of controversy, which will probably never have a "right" answer.  Just opinions and debate.

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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2006, 07:50:04 AM »

I can remember back in the late 70's when guys would clip two car and weld them together... usually a total loss from the front and one from the rear.
It was not all that uncommon.
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James
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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2006, 10:28:57 PM »

Rich,

what about when you have to replace the dash panel??  are you expecing to cut around the vin plate and section the rest of a new dash in place/?? this is neither probable or practicle.

anyone who has worked on more than 1 first gen has undoubtley seen the rot that grown under the bottom edge of the winshield.

in this instance, you are simply replacing the panel that the vin plate is rivited too...

playing devils advocate here...

if you only replace that single panel... is the car anymore valid than a car that has had every other panel replaced?

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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2006, 11:13:49 PM »

Aaron -

Thanks for the comment -

Replacing the dash panel would obvioulsy require removing the original VIN tag and installing it on the replaxcement dash panel - following whatever legal method is approved in the area where one resides.

My comment about the VIN tag never leaving the original sheet metal it was attached to is meant in the context that that VIN tag was, obviously, meant to only be installed on one body/car-as built by Fisher Body for Chevy .  I hope that we would all agree that for someone to claim a restoration of an original car by moving the VIN tag from a lost cause to a new build is nonsensical.  To remove the VIN tag from the original sheet metal (car body) it is attached to and attach it to a "crate Camaro" build - to me - even if legal, is not what I would consider appropriate - under any circumstances.   If for nor other reason, if that practice became more and more acceptable, then there will be consequences for the hobby which I don't believe that any of us really want to see.   

By all means, if one wants to build a 69 Camaro from all new pieces, go ahead if that's what blows wind up your skirt.  But at the same time, be respectful of others in the hobby - register the "69 Camaro" as a new car, with a new VIN, and advertise it for what it is.  As for the question as to where does one draw the line with regard to replacing panels and still state that one is working with an original car - very good question.  Maybe not so much a question of how many panels have been replaced, but more a question of are you still dealing with the original structure of the uni-body to which all of the sheet metal is attached.  No clear answer - but I'm confident that any of us, if presented with that decision, would "do the right thing".  In the final analysis, I believe that this is not that hard a decision to make.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 10:40:42 AM by rich69rs » Logged

Richard Thomas
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« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2006, 11:47:43 AM »

Rich,

I wonder if there will be any financial beneifts for swapping VIN & cowl tags from an original Camaro vs. doing an initial registration on the Dynacorn body.
In other words, would insurance be cheaper on an "original" Camaro vs. a kit type car?  I don't know myself - just wondering.  That could be one of the
principal reasons people swap VIN's.  Well. other then the obvious attempts to make an RS/SS big block convertible from a pile of new sheet metal. Roll Eyes 

What if someone buys one of these cars already built and then down the road they swap the VIN & cowl tags.  It might be harder to trace now because
the car has been on the road and has that "driven" look, etc..  In these scenarios, I always look to the darker side.  So lets say someone buys one of these
Dynacorn bodied cars thinking it is an original Camaro.  They later learn they got dupped and their only out is to put real VIN & cowl tags on the car and unload
it in an attempt to get their money back.  I can foresee a lot of ethical issues here.  Just look at all the COPO, ZL-1, and Yenko clones on eBay all the time.
If there was no way to trace the lineage of the real cars, you can bet that almost none of these fake cars would be sold a clones.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I think the fit on these bodies is crap.  They should be easier to spot.  Maybe we should all start to learn the differences
between original GM bodies and the Dynacorn reproduction.  Perhaps we could start a sticky thread here with known Dynacorn body irregularities.  I hate to
play the Camaro Police, but we have to protect the values of our real cars - don't we!

Steve
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« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2006, 03:31:39 PM »

The short of it is there is nothing wrong with any of this until you get caught and you will get caught. The laws differ in different states. In some states is is totally legal to remove and reattach to the same vehicle the VIN tag for purposes of restoration. IN no state is it legal to remove a VIN and place it on a (vehicle) assembled sheet metal that never was part of the original factory build. Now that being said as my time spent working in a body shop on vehicles that sustained damage in the area of the VIN it was in the state of Florida 100% legal for us to remove the VIN an REattach it to new parts. In my opinion if you have a rotted out first gen with a title in your name there should be some legal parameters to follow that allow you to sacrafice the old cancer body for the rebody. I wouldn't object to a new issued title marked with "Restoration 2006" or More than75% aftermarket parts or something similar so no one could try and sell it as original sheet metal in ten or twenty years if that import crap would still be around after that long. Just my two cents!!!
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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2006, 11:25:51 PM »

Wandering around the "Big Boys Toy Store" at Hot August Nights in Reno Wednesday afternoon led me to stumble upon the reval of the '67 Dynacorn SS/RS Camaro that is currently being shown and put together on the tv show Chop, Cut, Rebuild on the Speed Channel.  CCR crew, including the host "Dan" were all there to film an episode for CCR that will air on 4 October.  That episode is the revealing of the car at Hot August Nights this year.

The car finished out white, with blue bumble bee stripe on the front end.  It is badged SS/502.  Firewall has been smoothed and no cowl tag has been installed.  Doors were closed, so I couldn't see the driver's side A pillar to see if there was a VIN tag.  Interior is finished out in white and blue.  4 speed tranny.  Trunk is carrying the bulk of the stereo equipment in addition to a flat screen tv.

Spoke to one of the head honchos there from Dynacorn and he made no bones about how he felt it was ok to "rebody" a car.  I told him flat out that in my opinion, transferring a VIN from an original Camaro to this Taiwanese clone would be unethical.  He tried to offer a lame excuse about how this is just an extension of the restoration process..... BS.

Didn't have my camera with me yesterday.  I spent my time today at a different venue - the swap meet.  Will be back Friday and Saturday and will get some pics, assuming that they will let me take pics.

More later......
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Richard Thomas
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« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2006, 12:42:17 AM »

........Spoke to one of the head honchos there from Dynacorn and he made no bones about how he felt it was ok to "rebody" a car. I told him flat out that in my opinion, transferring a VIN from an original Camaro to this Taiwanese clone would be unethical. He tried to offer a lame excuse about how this is just an extension of the restoration process..... BS.


Let's see --- A dynacorn management team member positioning the "OK to rebody" argument.  That's a stretch - huh? Roll Eyes

It's just all about --->

I'm somewhat surprised the CCR team's '67 didn't have the trim tag installed.  Their posturing on the episode I saw seemed
to indicate that it was OK to swap cowl & VIN tags.  I wonder if they got beat-up for that comment.        

Steve
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« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2006, 01:07:12 AM »

Got some pics today of the CCR / Dynacorn clone of, as they refer to it, the '67 Camaro Pace Car.

First of all, no cowl tag, no VIN on the A pillar.  I checked the dash to see if something might have been placed there - no VIN visible.

So, at this time, this car may just be a show / trade show display toy.  And make no mistake, it is a very nice ride.  And as long as it is promoted as being a replica, no problem.  As with all of the Cobra kit cars, if you want to build a replica (kit) Camaro car, go for it - and make sure you call it and register it for what it is.

However, what has to be of concern to all of us is that, in the final analysis, no one (probably) is going to repeat what was done here.  There isn't an original part on this car - totally constructed via the aftermarket - to make the point that it could be done.  What we have to be aware of is that Dynacorn will / is selling these repro bodies to replace (or rebody) an existing sub frame / rear assembly and calling it a restoration of an original vehicle.

BS (in my humble opinion).

In any event, the next few posts are the highlights.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2006, 01:29:23 AM by rich69rs » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2006, 01:09:12 AM »

Pic 2
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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2006, 01:11:02 AM »

Pic 3
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« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2006, 01:12:44 AM »

Pic 4
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« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2006, 01:14:44 AM »

Pic 5
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« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2006, 01:17:32 AM »

Pic 6 - Didn't know 502 BB was a '67 option.  As the pictures show, except for the blue/white colors, doesn't really much resemble a '67 Pace Car.
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« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2006, 01:19:54 AM »

Pic 7 - No VIN on the A door pillar / jamb.
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« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2006, 01:22:24 AM »

Pic 8 - Smoothed Firewall - No Cowl Tag.  For reference, all of the pics were taken 5 August 2006 in Reno, NV
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« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2006, 07:00:27 PM »

my first time e-mailing in , what iam hearing from alot of people writing in here is that your using like good mark panels and stuff , just did an every nut and bolt on my 69 rs/ss x22 camaro and found the most enjoyment besides know what i have was lookin at swaps and every where else to find GM parts to replace everything i needed , i tryed a good mark rad, surport and found out it sucked tryin to line everything up so i looked and found a GM one , this rebody stuff is just a bunch of crap , , kindda like buying a new harley , everybody can have one but they dont have class like a real harley does , where is this rebody , replacin tags , rippin people off crap going to stop , i like the ideal of lookin at my car and knowing that sometime in 69  a bunch of americans set out to build one of the nicest looking cars ever build and iam sure they took pride in there work , id like too hear a few workers who build these cars in 69 would have to say about this new body crap, i  for one would hate to bay a camaro at this time being scared as hell about being lied too or ripped off in one way on another , just my thoughts may not make much sice but does to me           great site here
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« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2006, 07:31:15 AM »

Hair - welcome to the CRG!

'69 RS/SS - tell us more about it.  Big block or small block?  Details........

Your comments are sort of the reason I started this thread in the first place.  I understand that when finished, the '67 Pace Car featured didn't have the cowl or VIN tags
installed.  Probably a smart move on CCR's part.  However, they did indicate on the show that you could install "original" cowl & VIN tags from an original Camaro with no problem.   Roll Eyes

Now I think I know the reason for the movement to re-pop cowl tags.  re-pop'd cowl tags for a re-pop'd car Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Steve
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« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2006, 12:47:08 PM »

Nuch...where are you in NC?
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« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2006, 08:30:55 AM »

He is in your old stompin grounds!
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« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2006, 03:52:49 PM »

I'm a tarheel myself... but back to the thread. Grin
Thanks for those pics, Richard.  I'm going back to my first post:  This is not a rebody.  It is a kit car!   Angry
In the case of this particular car, how could you not call it a kit car?  It is not original in any way, shape or form: not an original body, drive train(?), motor.  But from these pictures I can also see how it would be easy to produce a car that could fool a lot of people with an original VIN attached to it.  The kit car market has lots of cars that are registered as the original.  Sadly, it appears that the same may soon be true for Camaros.  All the more reason to check out any car thoroughly before you buy it.  Roll Eyes
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Phillip
HNR-AACA, Senior Master
Planning 2016 Sentimental Tour, AACA (and restoring a 40 Buick Special for it)
AACA Southeastern Division Spring Meet Chair
"Charlotte AutoFair, presented by the Hornets Nest Region, AACA, is the largest and greatest Collector Vehicle Event in the Southeast USA."
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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2006, 05:03:55 AM »

me again    id post some pics on here if i could figure it out iam puter dumb , the cowl tag on my camaro reads like this;  st69   12437  nor224741 bdy      711         79 e  pnt    01b    x22           had the factory paint and perchment   top on it when i got it but was in rough shape  never was repanted that i could tell  , there were no strips on this car when we started on it, was rally green with white top did havee black tail pan and rockers,  the motor was gone but 4 speed and rear were still in car  we left some on the factory paint behind the sail panels incase  anyone dint think it was a rally green car . because its my car i left off the white top and added glod and silver preal and flipflop to a rally green paint , did new seals everywhere , had everything that would come off this car off and cleaned rebuilt and painted   , getting close to being done but are they ever really done , running a very warm small block with a winters 302 intake , all new big block spring front rear , has 2 peice rotors on front , well ill figure out this pic thing and post a bunch if anyone is interested in seeing it       rick
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clwilcox
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« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2006, 06:12:23 PM »

That interior on that kit car is awful!!
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Christropher
1967 RS/SS 350......in pieces still.
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« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2006, 04:59:28 PM »

Rick,

Send me the images, I'll post them for you.

Steve
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69 SS 396, Hugger Orange, D/80, D/90
Chambered Exhaust, N/66, THM400, 3:73 posi

Steve A.
  CRG
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