CRG Discussion Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 28, 2014, 12:09:48 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Welcome to the CRG Discussion Forum!
Forum registration problems: Make sure you enter your email correctly and you check your spam box first. *Then* email KurtS2@gmail for help.
103593 Posts in 12177 Topics by 4697 Members
Latest Member: greygoose01
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  CRG Discussion Forum
|-+  Camaro Research Group Discussion
| |-+  Decoding/Numbers
| | |-+  "ML" Engine Stamp..
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2  All Print
Author Topic: "ML" Engine Stamp..  (Read 2898 times)
BlackoutSteve
Member
***
Posts: 398


138139883
View Profile Email
« on: February 17, 2012, 03:11:48 AM »

There is more to this that I am unable to elaborate on yet, but have a look at these pictures.
The car is currently up for sale as a "matching numbers".
Can we crack 10 faults? Grin







It appears that some effort went into the stamping, but zero effort went into choosing the "right numbers".  Huh
Logged

Restoring my RHD 69 Jane in Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.usmuscle.com.au/Forum/showthread.php?t=2840
Mike S
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1075



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2012, 08:44:51 AM »

 I'm not too up on 1969 Camaro's so I can't find 10 things  Grin  but what little I did find in the few minutes before heading to work are:
Block casting is a 427 ci. On CRG a 427 would be a COPO
The ML would indicate a COPO 9560 ZL1 aluminum engine vs. a COPO 9561 iron block. This block is iron
I'm guessing that the ZL-1 block should be 3946052?
The VIN does not appear on the CRG COPO listing
The engine code has a tilted numeric 1 (the second in the sequence)
The engine code is using numeric 1 in place of the letter I (but that may be OK if I and 1's are used interchangeably)
The engine code has 8 characters instead of the 7 I normally see on BB pads
Were ZL1 engines supposed to painted black?

That's all I can quickly come up with.
Gotta head to work!
Mike
Logged

67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored
srode
Member
***
Posts: 173



View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2012, 09:02:30 AM »

I don't think thre should be a VIN stamp on that block in that location considering the build date indicated by the VIN.  It should be down by the oil filter on the cast part of the block. Thats 8, need 2 more.
Logged

Steve - 02D Z11 and a Plain Jane hardtop
william
CRG Member
*****
Posts: 1166


View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2012, 09:53:36 AM »

Iron 427 block casting #3955270 was only used for a few months in very early production '69 full-size and Corvettes. COPO 9561 [L72] Camaros used casting #3963512 stamped MN for 4-speed and MO for auto. None of these are known to have the VIN stamp on the pad.

The VIN indicates the car was built during the 4th week of Sep '69. The engine is dated Oct 17; would have to be '68.

Whoever did this managed to use an incorrect block casting, stamped with an incorrect code, with an incorrectly located VIN stamping.
Logged
Mike S
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1075



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2012, 09:54:08 AM »

This is fun in a way...  Cheesy
Here is another one when digging deeper...
The VIN range for this car is around August 1969 per CRG
The block assembly date of 0101 (what the heck is that number 7 doing here!?) is Jan 1969. IMO, way too early for any COPO car.

But hey....afterall it is a 'number matching' car!
Then again, I have 'matching' features of Tom Cruise...you have seen it before....2 eyes, 2 ears, 1 nose and mouth.  Grin

Mike
Logged

67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored
BlackoutSteve
Member
***
Posts: 398


138139883
View Profile Email
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2012, 04:43:09 PM »

My list.
1. "ML" on wrong block material.
2. "ML" on wrong cast number.
3. "ML" is a ZL1 and the VIN is not any of the ZL1s.
4. "M" font incorrect. Others too?
5. Engine code has one too many digits.
6. Engine date different to that casting's date.
7. The casting number of 3955270 was never in Camaros
8. Engine build date code 21? months prior to vehicle's build date.
9. 9N687XXX VIN should be at the oil filter boss and not on the pad
10. "1"s are used instead of "I"s. "1"s are rare or non existant.
11. One of the "I"s is tilted.
12. ....

If someone did this for stupid fun, and said "Hey, I changed the numbers" (which apparently is what was said in the ebay sale of this car in '08"), that would be, well, up to them. But, the current seller is insisting that this car is a genuine matching numbers car and the potential buyer that I'm helping is being told by the seller than I'm full of sh!t, and money has become involved.
So, I have no issue tearing this car and the seller to shreads for not doing some extremely basic research.
What's more, the seller says this car is possibly a COPO or Yenko, yet the price reflects a regular Camaro.. So he damn-well knows..

After all, I bought a replacement trim tag for my car after damaging the original, and had the paint and trim codes changed. What's more, I even spent $10K having the actual paint and trim changed too! But that's deliberately on the internet and all the numbers-keeping-gurus are aware of it.
Logged

Restoring my RHD 69 Jane in Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.usmuscle.com.au/Forum/showthread.php?t=2840
Mike S
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1075



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2012, 05:02:19 PM »

Hi Steve,

4. "M" font incorrect. Others too?

I'm not sure if the M is wrong though in the posted picture I agree it just doesn't look right.
I have seen 3 types of M fonts on BB pads. Some with the middle extended to the bottom and others 1/2 way down.
The 3rd is what visually looks like a an ever so slightly wider character width size for both type of M's.
My feeling is that the supplier of the font stamps may vary?

The 8 digit engine stamp is a dead give away.
Ask the seller to come to this group to try to justify the originality or the buyer to warn him/her.

My hats off to you for alerting the potential buyer of this fake!

Mike
Logged

67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored
BillOhio
Member
***
Posts: 368



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2012, 07:12:58 PM »

I saw something about as bad. I was high bidder and went to get the car, 69 z. The car was first week of june, block was first casting, september of 68. Stamped on pad so that was wrong. The block had to be stamped with the head off, the numbers were practically under the head. Guy swore it was right block. I am not sure if he did it or person that sold it to him.  engine wasnt in it when he bought it and he had it assembled. He was ok about me not taking it.. Week later guy paid 32k for it. Was an x77, but not right
Logged

1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1967 Plymouth GTX Hemi, 4 speed, dana
tmodel66
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1212


View Profile Email
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2012, 07:28:24 PM »

Can you give us a link to see the rest of it?
Logged

Daniel  
'69 SS 350/4 speed  Fathom Green--POP
BlackoutSteve
Member
***
Posts: 398


138139883
View Profile Email
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 09:55:28 PM »

Can you give us a link to see the rest of it?

More info to follow, but not just now.. Smiley
Logged

Restoring my RHD 69 Jane in Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.usmuscle.com.au/Forum/showthread.php?t=2840
KurtS
CRG Coordinator
*****
Posts: 3173


View Profile Email
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2012, 03:07:09 AM »

124379N687904

It was a yellow Yenko clone many years ago. 59-S tag.
Logged

Kurt S
CRG
BlackoutSteve
Member
***
Posts: 398


138139883
View Profile Email
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2012, 09:35:54 PM »

Still is yellow but now without the Yenko decals.

Hmm, Frost Green with a green vynil top.. Thanks.
Logged

Restoring my RHD 69 Jane in Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.usmuscle.com.au/Forum/showthread.php?t=2840
KurtS
CRG Coordinator
*****
Posts: 3173


View Profile Email
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2012, 10:13:32 PM »

Here's some info and pics from 2008

http://media.collectorcarpricetracker.com/auction_data/2008/7/11/290242686402/290242686402.pdf
Logged

Kurt S
CRG
BlackoutSteve
Member
***
Posts: 398


138139883
View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2012, 12:09:28 AM »

Yes, I found that link early on and it was emailed to the seller. He is yet to reply.. -Probably because he has no "comeback"..

What I also think silly, is that sale list the engine as a "numbers matching 427 restoration motor".. We all know that there is no such thing. Matching numbers means THE engine the car came with from the factory. Not crates or even factory warranty replacement engines were numbers matching..
In fact, in you want to get down to it, I thought restamping a VIN on a car or engine was illegal..
I'm sure that eBay seller worded that phrase just so the sale would gather more interest.
A bit like many eBay sellers adding "Z28" to the title of everyday parts -like door handles or glove box doors...  Roll Eyes
Logged

Restoring my RHD 69 Jane in Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.usmuscle.com.au/Forum/showthread.php?t=2840
Mike S
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1075



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2012, 10:29:45 AM »

Matching numbers means THE engine the car came with from the factory.
I tend to agree but I think this "numbers matching" word is a paradox in the car collecting arena.

  This reminds me of former president Clinton's famous quotes:
"I didn't inhale"
When asked about a sexual relation with Monica "It depends upon of what the meaning of the word... is..is"

  I do remember reading somewhere a case where a buyer bought a "numbers matching car" and later found it was a restamp and took the seller to court. The seller was not found guilty because numbers matching didn't mean original. So "numbers matching" is a play of words, IMO.   Undecided

  After getting back into this hobby late last year I have done a lot of reading catch ups and the topic of restamps caught my attention and the seemingly wide spread use of it because of that human addiction called greed. But I can't help ponder, what is accepted and what is not, has come down to a pick and choose acceptance in his hobby. I mean, you can now get date coded glass and tell a potential buyer it's original glass. Nobody gets uptight when someone says I got dated glass, hose clamps, wires, etc...  but a VIN or other date codes (alternators and distributors), then the conversations gets explosive. What is the real case here...the act of restamps or the potential value that can be obtained from a restamp that causes a pick and choose practice?  Huh
  In the case of this so called Yenko, it's out right fraud. But this hobby needs to get a clear legal definition of what a 'numbers matching' car is so the word game semantics can stop and potential buyers and sellers know what is legally correct in definition and what is not.

Just my 2 cents
Mike
Logged

67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored
Pages: [1] 2  All Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.084 seconds with 18 queries.