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Author Topic: Documenting 1969 Fasteners  (Read 3809 times)
IZRSSS
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« on: February 03, 2012, 09:31:47 AM »

This report is only for SCREWS ONLY. Information concerning Nuts, bolts, loose washers, etc. will collected at a later date.
 
Please submit the following information with a photo of your screw;

•   Build Date/Plant
•   Survivor/Frame-on/Rotisserie (restoration type if any)
•   Fastener part number per AIM (Assembly Instruction Manual)
•   Accurate measurements of your fastener
•   Finish (if known)
•   Photo of the fastener as illustrated below. Need good pic of headmark, shaft & tip. Including flange/captured washer. (If you have trouble posting pics I will post them for you, just send them to; vsotero78@yahoo.com)

Below is an example as it pertains to my car…

12A, LA, Frame-on, 9420415, 3/8” x 5/8” (1/2” Flange), Zinc…photo below.

I added a couple of pics for reference only. There is no need to photograph fastener w/tape measure. Additional information can be found here;
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9074.0

I will notify everyone when we have sufficient numbers of a specific screw/PN...happy hunting!

THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR PARTICIPATING GENTALMEN & LADIES!  
 
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2012, 10:35:30 AM »

I counted a total of 184 different screws/PN's. What do you think about checking off a page at a time? There are a total of 7 pages. Each one will give you the PN's and where each one is located in the AIM...I chose to go with white letters and a black back ground. Seems to be a little easier on the eyes...especially for us older folks.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 12:39:02 PM »

Gets a little easier with a couple of bud-lights under your belt  Grin
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 02:06:30 PM »

Marty,
I'd like to suggest a 'format' for compiling this information to make it most usable to ones restoring or verifying their cars.   What I'd prefer is a spreadsheet format with GM PN, Description, AIM pages which references the PN, along with the 'known' original mfg's markings (head mark).   I took information from your previous posts to lay out a simple example of what I'm speaking of below attached.   AMK catalog has a listing of most GM PN's with a description of size, etc (unless we have better data from somewhere?)..
   
Gary   69Z28-RS   
                        
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
IZRSSS
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 03:40:36 PM »

Gary - I like your idea a lot. Lets get some more hits and if everyone agrees...we'll adopt your version! Just a little larger pics of the headmarks for us old vets. Smiley
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 04:34:53 PM »

...
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 04:44:09 PM »

...
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 04:59:20 PM »

...
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2012, 07:05:07 PM »

Gary - The more I study your spread sheet the more I like it. Fill me in...how did you manage to post it on here? I have tried to copy paste onto a pic but even that doesn't work.

I think it would be a great way to store the information but I want to make sure we can post it on here so everyone has access to it.

Thanks
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2012, 08:02:46 PM »

...
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2012, 01:17:17 PM »

Guys…I think I've tried just about everything I can think of to make this topic more efficient. As far as I can tell there isn't...short of having an on-line PDF...not going to go there. So I guess we have no other choice but to keep plugging along.
 
If anyone would like a copy of the pics I’ve posted on this thread email me, and there yours (vsotero78@yahoo.com). I am hoping you’ll do the same.
 
Hats off to Chick for giving it a go w/the 68’s!

Here are the pics from up top condensed into one...
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2012, 04:03:18 PM »

1st pic upper left w/PN 3933052 is wrong...it should be 3824124.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2012, 05:04:15 PM »

Anyone care to comment on these  Huh Bottom one is 9/32"...
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2012, 12:19:36 AM »

Gary - The more I study your spread sheet the more I like it. Fill me in...how did you manage to post it on here? I have tried to copy paste onto a pic but even that doesn't work.
I think it would be a great way to store the information but I want to make sure we can post it on here so everyone has access to it.
Marty,
It was a pain (for me) to figure out how to get a simple image of a simple spreadsheet on here, becuase I haven't done it in quite a while.  I recommend a spreadsheet format becuase it's easy to update as we get more information.  I think I used Paint to past in the spreadsheet (maybe after converting to word doc?) then ataching the image file?  it's NOT very convenient to work with images.  I'd bet one of the experts on here, William or Kurt, could recommend the best format to both update and share the data.   if you maintained a spreadsheet file, then periodcally converted to a PDF and put it into the cRG reports area, that would be best for everyone..  in my opinion..
 I also think it would be better to use 'graphics' as you were doing before, for the mfg marking', as some of the head marks in image format are difficult to see, and they take up lots more space in the file..
Gary

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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
IZRSSS
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2012, 09:30:27 AM »

Gary – I am certain CRG has good reasons for not allowing programs like PDF’s on here. Maybe I should have researched PDF files on websites a little more before exploring the idea as an option. From what I’ve been able to gather online, below is one reason PDF files are not allowed and I’m certain there are others…
 
“On the DVD, each document is stored in a single (usually large) PDF file. Unfortunately, when you access a PDF file on the web, the ENTIRE file is transmitted, even if you want only one page. So on this website, documents are split into smaller individual pages as JPG or GIF files. This keeps the bandwidth down (total data transmitted) and thus hosting costs to a minimum”.

I knew going into this it wouldn’t be something for those looking for a quick fix. This is going to take some time…a lot of time! But my hope is that folks like you will continue to offer their knowledge but more importantly their own Camaros as a resource. You have an excellent example with your survivor 69Z. That is exactly what we need to make this thing stick. There are also guys like George, Mike, and Hans that have excellent resources as well and have given of their time to add to this cause. That’s exactly what we need. I am also offering my car as well…although it isn’t a survivor, the folks that did the one and only restoration knew exactly what they were doing. So my guess is that this also included attention to fasteners.

Okay…I’ll get off my soap box and move on…here are the head-marks I posted at the other site. For those new to this discussion, the green asterisks simply mean that a particular head-mark has been determined factory correct. But again, these are not set in stone and are still open for debate.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2012, 09:33:07 AM »

...Last two pgs...
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2012, 09:41:17 AM »

Let me know if you guys think these blk/white charts will work.  One of the problems I see is that not all AIM’s have numbered pages. If this is an issue for some of you, please let me know and I’ll revise it to show UPC’s instead.

I also noticed I doubled up on a PN so I made a temporary fix…
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68camaroz28
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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2012, 09:48:22 AM »

Happened across this quite by accident as a friend asked me to phosphate a few screws.
As it turned out they were for the support bars from the fender to the radiator support.
Told me his restored 69 had pointed screws and Brian Henderson told him they should not be pointed.
So he took the ones out from another non-restored 69 he had. I told him I was not aware of this but would check our 69.
Sure enough our 69 has the non-pointed screws as well so I check our 69 AIM vs. our 68 AIM.
69 AIM p146 UPC 11-13 B3 calls out two different screws for that support bar.
Support bar to fender screw #3960314, support bar to rad. support screw #3846202 (hard to read in our AIM).
68 AIM p142 UPC 11-13 B3 calls out screw #9780122 both ends.
Our 69 is a 10D (Oct. 69) but not sure of the build date of my friends donor 69.
The #3846202 in both cases are a non-pointed 5/16-18 X 9/16 lg with 3/4" captured washer.
Please note the two to the left are our 10D screws and my friends all had the same 'D' type mfg. screws.
I assume they made changes from 68 to 69 due to possible wiring in that area of the rad. support.


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Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
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« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2012, 10:04:03 AM »

Marty, I like your blk/white chart.
If you used the UPC that would make it easier for 67 & 68 compariason, as well.
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« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2012, 10:08:21 AM »

Have this posted on the 68 fastener page as well as it covers both.
Washer bottle bracket screws #9420415 UPC 1 A4 68 AIM p38 69 AIM p28
Screws are from three different Camaros and each set of 3 have the same mfg. screw.
Left screw from our 01B 68, middle screw from our late 10D 69, and right screw from 69 donor.
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Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
IZRSSS
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« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2012, 10:27:51 AM »

Marty, I like your blk/white chart.
If you used the UPC that would make it easier for 67 & 68 compariason, as well.

Phillip... consider it done. Give me a little time to revise my copies and I'll post them on Chicks thread. I also offered up my makeshift "head-mark" charts for you guys to use as well. Anything I can do to help just let me know.

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IZRSSS
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« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2012, 10:30:26 AM »

Chick - big time thanks for the fastener heads-up on UPC 11-13/B3!
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2012, 11:32:54 AM »

This might work better for some...thanks Phillip!

...(did the same dang thing i did before...#3868790... Angry)
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2012, 01:43:09 PM »

Have this posted on the 68 fastener page as well as it covers both.
Washer bottle bracket screws #9420415 UPC 1 A4 68 AIM p38 69 AIM p28

Chick - Agreed. This was the most widely used of all 69 fasteners. It can also be found on pgs; 155, 156, 161, 162, 182, 227, 431, 440 & 441.

I'm still trying to make heads or tails of 314 & 202.

314 is aso found on pgs; 140, 145, 147, 148, 149 & 154.

202 can be found in; 65, 145, 146, 149, 156, 457 & 464.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2012, 03:43:42 PM »

Chick - The pic below shows the fastener (PN 3960314) I have on my 12A LA car as shown on pg 140. All 6 are the same. It is also the same fastener called out on pg. 146…rad support to fender. Can you confirm this is the correct one (1/2")?
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2012, 05:08:37 PM »

Chick – here's the 202… it can also be found as stated before on pgs; 145, 146, 149, 156, 457 & 464. I checked all of them and their all the same. The two on the pic are from the rad-fender brace and the rear axle brake pipe bracket. Both are pinched points. None are “dog-points”/ blunt points. I wonder if this is another case of plant vs plant and venders vs venders?
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2012, 07:57:41 AM »

Does anyone have pics of these screws & their measurements (4 total)?
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2012, 07:59:10 AM »

...
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2012, 02:52:19 PM »

When I get home tonight, I can take photos of the two cowl vent panel screws above for you.   I checked and cleaned them last night, but didn't photograph them yet.  I'm certain they are original... and they are in good condition with good head marking.  Only issue will be if my camera can extract sufficient detail in the 'closeup' mode..?  Got any tips on making 'close up, in focus' photos??
Gary   /   69Z28-RS
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
IZRSSS
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« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2012, 03:31:07 PM »

I wish I had the answer for reducing the number of pics needed to get just one good shot but I don't...sorry. If it helps, the one place that seems to work best for me is in the kitchen. We have a large skylight flanked by two large fluorescent lights (yep that means climbing up on the island as well...sure hope I finish this thing before I end up breaking my neck  Wink). I also set the camera up on a tripod and try to use the same setting and same zoom each time. This works for most of them. Then you have the fasteners with the very fine detail. Just have to play with those until you get what you're looking for. Sometimes a dark closet with the right source of direct light works best. Once it works you stick with it. Hopefully by then you won't go broke buying up batteries... Wink

Thanks again Gary and looking forward to seeing your pics. BTW...what do you think about doing it this way. I don't mind posting up page by page of the AIM. Whatever works.

Marty
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2012, 01:04:33 AM »

What you've been doing is re the photos, description, etc is great Marty, but it sure looks like a lot of work for the *hundreds* of different fasteners used on the Camaro, coupled with the multiple mfgs of each fastener...?  I just can't imagine the time necessary to get all this documented the way you're going now.   Then you have the issue of how to document the entire files so it's beneficial to the guys restoring?   It almost begs for a color 'book' of many pages, which would be tremendously expensive.   That's the biggest reason I had suggested a more simple spreadsheet format to couple with the existing AIM and other documentation available (like the AMK catalog? etc)...
PS.  I took photos tonight of the two screws you wanted which retain the cowl vent panel, but my camera will not focus close enough to capture the detail you require (and is exhibited by your photos).   I'll find a way to do this and then send them to you even if I have to borrow or buy another camera with a closeup lens capability.
Gary  / 69Z28-RS
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
IZRSSS
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« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2012, 08:07:43 AM »

Everything you are saying is warranted. It is mind boggling…this is why this is going to take participation from everyone. If it were simple someone would have completed it by now. Expensive to reproduce…unless CRG is going to charge us to display the information there is no expense other than the cost of our time and a few batteries. As for the best way to display the information…that’s out of my league and my hopes is that our computer savvy members will figure out a way that best presents this information for everyone’s use. My goal is to help gather the information.
 
As for displaying every fastener Co., or head-mark on each AIM pg., this isn’t necessary. As long as the correct fastener is listed on a particular pg., any valid Co. or head-mark will do. This is the purpose of the other thread…Correct Factory headmarkings.

If the majority insists this is too big a mountain to climb I’ll respect that and move on. But if there is a consensus that shows there is enough support then I’ll continue. Trust me; I’m okay with this either way.

Gary; thanks for attempting to shoot those pics. Your right, a descent camera is necessary and I also have photo shop. This allows you to manipulate a pic for the best contrast, etc.
 
Anyway…here are a couple examples of what can be done… 
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2012, 08:08:30 AM »

...
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68camaroz28
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« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2012, 08:52:39 PM »

69 AIM p146 UPC 11-13 B3 calls out two different screws for that support bar.
Support bar to fender screw #3960314, support bar to rad. support screw #3846202 (hard to read in our AIM).
Happened across this quite by accident as a friend asked me to phosphate a few screws.
As it turned out they were for the support bars from the fender to the radiator support.
Told me his restored 69 had pointed screws and Brian Henderson told him they should not be pointed.
So he took the ones out from another non-restored 69 he had. I told him I was not aware of this but would check our 69.
Sure enough our 69 has the non-pointed screws as well so I check our 69 AIM vs. our 68 AIM.
69 AIM p146 UPC 11-13 B3 calls out two different screws for that support bar.
Support bar to fender screw #3960314, support bar to rad. support screw #3846202 (hard to read in our AIM).
68 AIM p142 UPC 11-13 B3 calls out screw #9780122 both ends.
Our 69 is a 10D (Oct. 69) but not sure of the build date of my friends donor 69.
The #3846202 in both cases are a non-pointed 5/16-18 X 9/16 lg with 3/4" captured washer.
Please note the two to the left are our 10D screws and my friends all had the same 'D' type mfg. screws.
I assume they made changes from 68 to 69 due to possible wiring in that area of the rad. support.

Sorry but I wrote the pn wrong! The screw in question is #3846201 and not #3846202.
Under UPC 11-13 B3 it is screw #8 and screw #9 is #3846202.
I was referencing what I believe to be the non-pointed #3846201.
Can others confirm the 201 is a non-pointed 5/16-18 X 9/16 lg with 3/4" captured washer?
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Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
IZRSSS
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« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2012, 12:07:28 PM »

The screw Chick is referring to can be found on pg 146 (UPC 11-13/B3) & on pg 206 (UPC C60/B3).

Hope this helps...If anyone finds it please post a pic or send one to my email address.

Thanks Chick!
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2012, 07:54:50 PM »

Its been brought to my attention the screw on 1/A5 isn't correct. I have a phillip shown and it should be a hex. If anyone has a pic of the correct one please post.

Thanks
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2012, 12:23:32 AM »

Marty,  if you are referring to PN 447143 on UPC 1 sheet A5, then yes, it's a hex screw.  per AMK it is an 8-18 x 1/4 AF  .34 OD.   Their PN is B-11070.   Their picture matches my original screw except for the head marking.   I tried to send you a photo of my original, but my camera will not adequately focus closely enough to obtain the detail.  I'm trying to attach the AMK image herein...
Gary   /   69Z28-RS
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
IZRSSS
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« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2012, 05:35:21 PM »

Thanks for the pic Gary.
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Dave69x33
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« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2012, 09:33:46 AM »

Hello All,

It has been a while since I have been on this discussion thread and have a lot to catch up on.

Here are pics of my cowl panel area screws.  My car is a Norwood build 05A or 1st week of May car as a point of reference:

#9421479 Cowl Panel Screws. AIM Page 27 Detail #2: (AMK #B-12172, but they come as Phosphate; they need to be replated silver Zink). I got these from Larry Christensen.

#4874119 Cowl Panel Top Plastic Plug.  AIM Page 27 Detail #3: (AMK - no listing).  I believe I got these from Larry Christensen).  PS - These are not screws but this topic concerns the cowl area so I included them.

#447143 Windshield Washer Nozzles.  AIM Page 29 Detail #2: (AMK #B-11070 in the correct Zink Silver plating).

#3933052 Windshield Wiper Motor Linkage.  AIM Page 26 Detail #2: (AMK #B-10884 in the correct Zink Silver plating).  They are my original screws and it is hard to ID the bolt head.  I am sure there will be several suppliers as this is a common screw used across several car models at that time.  AMK head mark is "A".

Regarding the format, I like the format shown that appears to be a MS Excel file.  If Excel is used, it can be sorted several ways to make look up research easier, and pictures can be pasted in the file.  Excel can be copied in to a PDF format should a color book ever be generated from this information.

Dave
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Dave69x33
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« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2012, 09:42:09 AM »

While we are on the subject of screws, can those with unrestored ‘69s cars or ‘69s with the original hardware intact, show a picture of the correct screw that holds the Front Windshield Lower Molding outer clip to the body.  See picture of the molding for reference.  You can see this clip and screw when you open the door and look into the inner fender area

Thanks!

Dave
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2012, 03:57:03 PM »

Dave - Thanks for the additional fastener pics and your idea for a format. It would be quite an addition to this hobby if someone would take on this difficult task. In the mean time I guess we'll just keep plugging along.

My car isn't a survivor but here are the windshield molding screws it has… "A's"
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paceme
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« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2012, 04:57:45 PM »

This is from an unrestored car built at Norwood 9B of 68.
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Steve Shauger
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Dave69x33
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« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2012, 10:18:12 PM »

Thanks IZRSSS and Paceme.

Your screws look like AMK screw B-11183, an 8-18 x 7/16 with a .38 encapsulated washer, in plain steel.  I'll may order these and give them a try.  One issue I have is that the passenger side was never drilled and attached with a screw,  and to drill the hole will require removing the fender.  Maybe I'll be lazy and not go to the trouble just as the boys one the Norwood line back in '69! LOL

Any suggestions?
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