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Author Topic: Correct Fasteners and headmarkings  (Read 20199 times)
JohnZ
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« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2012, 01:21:46 PM »

I don't know how the Camaro Nationals folks handle fasteners, but I'll tell you how NCRS handles it in Corvette Flight Judging. Since everyone finally understands that there were at least three suppliers for every part number of high-volume fasteners and fasteners were stocked to the line bins by part number, and nobody in any plant paid any attention whatsoever to headmarks, the new generation of NCRS Judging Guides now handle headmarks with flexibility.

In most cases, wording is now used such as "Commonly observed headmarks include XX, XX, and XX, and there may be others".

Every operator had bins of fasteners at his work station, and any single part number's bin could contain bolts with multiple headmarks, or he might grab a handful off the top that were all the same if the bin had just been replenished by the stockman from a fresh box. Any judging organization that doesn't recognize how manufacturing and assembly processes really worked is just subjecting owners/restorers to unnecessary stress when it comes to headmarks.

I'm a member of several NCRS Judging Guide revision teams, and have been instrumental in spreading how headmark judging should be handled across all of the Corvette judging year groups as Judging Guides are revised and updated.
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'69 Z/28
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2012, 02:12:23 PM »

John – I hope you don’t mind but it didn’t take me long to copy-paste this statement of yours to my Camaros folder for safe keeping. I don’t know of anyone that would be in a position to argue your point, Nationals or otherwise. And, it certainly makes things manageable and as you’ve stated, relieves much of the stress.

Two last questions John; Does NCRS Top Flight Judging require fasteners to be factory / NOS, or will “correct” repo fasteners suffice?  And, can you tell me if AMK’s fasteners are recognized or acceptable for the NCRS Top Flight Award category?

And last; can you recommend a source that shows which three headmarks are the most recognized for early built 69's?

Much appriciated!

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Mike S
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« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2012, 08:03:16 PM »

Hi Marty,

 I looked over both my 67's tonight and could not find the head marking you show in the original picture. Maybe it was a replacement kit as you suspect?
I did fine another type of marking but more for the bolts used to secure the hood to hinges (4), hinges to fender (4)  and fender to firewall (4)

The 67NOR-hood marking (I'll call 'F')  is seen on all hood to hinge (4), hinge to fender (4) and 2 out of 4 fender to firewall. The remaining 2 have the 3 lines with a B&H imprint.
The cocktail shakers use the same 'F' markings as well. I also found the 'anchor' used on the battery hold down bracket though a different bolt shape

The 67LOS-hood is the 'anchor' type for all 4 hood to hinge bolts. The 'anchor' is also used for the hinge to fender (4) and 'F' bolt for the 4 fender to firewall. This is a hardtop so no cocktail shakers. Interesting enough is the 'F' and 'anchor' bolts appears to be used at both plants. The battery hold down bolt is not readable due to battery acid damage.
 If I can be of any help please let me know.

Mike
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67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored
68camaroz28
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« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2012, 11:07:15 PM »

Mike, I'm not saying the 'f' as you call them are incorrect but just a comment that the bolts on the restored car look very nice and the AMK bolt kits have a lot of those 'f' type bolts. I will be going through more of our orig. bolts as I decide to restore or replace and to date I do not remember seeing any 'f' headed bolts but they may be there. To date everywhere the kits had the 'f' bolts I had something different. Do not have enough info to say they are correct or incorrect, only that I'm not seeing them or at least not yet.  Grin
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Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
Mike S
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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2012, 12:18:13 AM »

Hi Chick,

  I can take a picture of the 'F' bolt from the original 67 LOS car to show the weathered age and that should help prove that period usage. The restored NOR car was completed in 1986 (took 4 years) and I don't think there were any reproducer of bolts at that time  Wink and the 'F' bolts pictured here were restored using black oxide chemicals back then. They stayed well preserved because I use to apply oil twice a year to each bolt head for many years after I stopped showing the car. These aren't today's repos and I'm sure the kits today copied these original patterns.
 The survivor 67 LOS car is completely original , including bolts, with the exception of REAL dated 1974 plug wires (and plugs likely) on the car when I bought it in 1980.

 This whole topic sounds like a good research project. I'm sure a data base can be compiled and bolt marking patters quickly established and even narrow down period correct markings if the sample size is large enough. Tonight I thought of documenting each bolt marking to the manuals part number as an ad-hoc winter project.

Mike
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67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2012, 10:48:09 AM »

Mike – Appreciate all the pics of your survivor 67’s fasteners. Please keep them coming. Do you have pics of the car you can share?
 
Here are a couple of pics from fasteners that appear to be factory on my 69. I won’t bother mentioning where they're from because I don't have a clue if they are in the right spot. Exception…Rad Support bolt, for obvious reasons. Anyway, the most important issue pending, are the head-marks…once that's figured out I think the rest will be a cake walk.

 Huh Compare your anchor to mine...notice anything Huh

Any 69's out there  Huh

« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 11:46:33 AM by IZRSSS » Logged
IZRSSS
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2012, 10:49:23 AM »

...If either one of these is correct, my guess would be the first one... Roll Eyes
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2012, 11:20:10 AM »

I will be going through more of our orig. bolts as I decide to restore or replace

Chick...or anyone. I see this company pop up quite a bit when talking chemical restoration of fasteners and other metals. One, have you guys ever tried this company (or similar companies/products) and two do you have any before and after pics?

http://www.palmettoenterprises.net/Palmetto_Enterprises/-Welcome-.html
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JohnZ
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« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2012, 11:49:27 AM »

John – I hope you don’t mind but it didn’t take me long to copy-paste this statement of yours to my Camaros folder for safe keeping. I don’t know of anyone that would be in a position to argue your point, Nationals or otherwise. And, it certainly makes things manageable and as you’ve stated, relieves much of the stress.

Two last questions John; Does NCRS Top Flight Judging require fasteners to be factory / NOS, or will “correct” repo fasteners suffice?  And, can you tell me if AMK’s fasteners are recognized or acceptable for the NCRS Top Flight Award category?

And last; can you recommend a source that shows which three headmarks are the most recognized for early built 69's?

Much appriciated!



NCRS judging is based on the APPEARANCE of "typical of factory production"; for fasteners, that generally means headmarks that are typical of that period in time, and specifically, correct configuration of the fastener (the part number dictated the fastener's configuration - plain or recessed head, flanged or plain head, separate or captured washer, washer type, etc.).

There were LOTS of headmarks during that era that are "typical", including TR, UR, RBW, RSC, E, EL, F, AD. D, WB. L, LS, LE, C, M, Anchor, and others, in Grade 2 (plain), Grade 5 (3 lines), and Grade 8 (6 lines); that's why it's insanity to claim that only "one" bolt is correct for any usage.

If a fastener is noted that's the correct configuration, but has a headmark not typical of that period (like some AMK fasteners have), it's a very minor deduction or just a notation on the judging sheet with no deduction. There are lots of things more important than fastener headmarks, and experienced judges know which headmarks are typical of the era and which ones aren't.

NCRS doesn't recommend or endorse anyone's parts, but AMK is an excellent source for correctly-configured fasteners; sometimes the headmarks are typical of the era, and sometimes they aren't; the fastener's configuration is far more important than the headmarks.
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'69 Z/28
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Sauron327
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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2012, 11:55:08 AM »

Palmetto results with photos are here and T.C.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2012, 12:24:01 PM »

John - That certainly clears the air and together with your previous post, gives me the information I need to tackle this phase of the restoration...Thanks again!

Scott – I have learned during the past year or so you are as much a perfectionist as the next guy. Please give me your thoughts with regards to these products. One of my concerns is the seemingly delicate head marks. Is this stuff like layers of paint that can obscure these marks, or is the chemical reactions, for a lack of better terms; Head-Mark Friendly?
 
I'll do a search to check those others out as well…Thanks!

« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 01:50:07 PM by IZRSSS » Logged
169INDY
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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2012, 03:40:52 PM »

Consult the following for a good resource for fasteners & markings and manufactures.

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
HANDBOOK
LISTING OF
FASTENER MANUFACTURER’S
IDENTIFICATION SYMBOLS

See MIL-HDBK-57E

Jim W
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Jim
68 SS/RS L35 Th-400 LOS
69 Pace Car L48 Th-350 LOS
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« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2012, 06:15:05 PM »

So the "f" looking mark is Ferndale Fasteners, Madison Hgts, MI and the RBW is RB&W Corp (now RB&W Manufacturing, after several changes of ownership) with plants in Ohio.  A few others I can recall is the CL (overlayed) which is Centerline Tool & Engineering Corp, the circle with a "lazy" S in it which is Semco Fastener, and a "lazy" S without a circle which is Semblex Corp.  These things remind me of cattle brands from the old western movies.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2012, 07:11:13 PM »

Hey...almost as fun as collecting coins.  Wink

Are SEMCO & SEMS the same thing?
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Mike S
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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2012, 08:21:26 PM »

Hey...almost as fun as collecting coins.  Wink

 I'll second that!

Mike
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67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored
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