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Author Topic: Correct Fasteners and headmarkings  (Read 24397 times)
IZRSSS
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« on: January 18, 2012, 01:08:50 PM »

These are the fasteners I have on both the Catch & Plate. Problem is, I also have them in several other areas of the car, including the radiator support to fender & fender skirt. This makes me believe its more of a generic/univeral screw someone used when the car was restored. Does anyone know, or better yet, can you post a pic of the correct factory screw?

Note: If you all haven't guessed it by now, yup I am hung up on these darn things & forgive me! For you guys who aren't I promise to fact find only one fastener per week. If all goes well I should be done by the year 2022  Grin. If this is not okay, please PM me and I'll blow it off... Wink

{69 L48}

<edit - renamed thread - KS>
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 10:13:06 PM by KurtS » Logged
68Zproject
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2012, 04:24:51 PM »

You and I are on the same page on these things, I don't know why people would be upset, that's what this site is for.  Unfortunately, different years.  Here's my upper (first two) and lower (last).  My bolts look like yours but have the RBW or whatever letters on them.  I'd have to get a mag glass to see them though.



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68Z28
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2012, 05:33:50 PM »

Spring in upper photo should be black. I've seen variations in bolts used on untouched cars torn apart over the years. If you really want to be investigative, buy up the less expensive unmolested project cars, part them out if you want and resell the carcasses. They are out there.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 06:24:45 PM by Sauron327 » Logged
68camaroz28
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2012, 05:51:49 PM »

I have gone through a lot of bolts/screws comparing head markings (originals) to the repros which do not match many times but we all know there were many suppliers. As you assumed Marty and I'm with ya, I have not noticed or remember that head marking on the bolt you posted so I will assume also they are not original.  Grin I have mine bagged but will have to dig through the finished and non-finished bolt bags to find. Memory tells me RBW was a predominant one.
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Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
IZRSSS
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2012, 06:10:26 PM »

You and I are on the same page on these things, I don't know why people would be upset, that's what this site is for.  Unfortunately, different years.  Here's my upper (first two) and lower (last).  My bolts look like yours but have the RBW or whatever letters on them.  I'd have to get a mag glass to see them though.

No question about being on the same page. I’ve seen you attempt the same thing on other threads & it’s been tough to say the least. Maybe if we stick together on this thing, enough interest will be generated to keep it going. We can’t be the only two interested in this topic. Perhaps part of the problem is no one really wants to take a stand. Or maybe there just isn’t enough information out there that everyone can agree on. On the other hand, there must be a consensus for fasteners or this portion of the Nationals concours judging would be none existant.
 
For me the most important part of my restoration project will be educating myself on every aspect of the ’69 L48. This means reading, sorting data and building databases for everything; including fasteners. The other goal I have is to someday restore the car to a level conducive to concours level specifications. It is my understanding factory fasteners for shows like this are a must have, particularly for the Legend Class shows at the Nationals. If this is true than I would have to assume the same holds true for the upper level Bow Tie Classes. I say this because you cannot enter one without the other, right?
  
Trust me, I would much rather pay someone 50 – 125K to get my car ready for shows like that but guess what…I don’t have that kind of money lying around. And, not to take anything away from the guys that charge that kind of money, but just thinking about what’s involved, there’s no question it’s worth every penny!!! However, I think I would get a heck of a lot more more enjoyment tackling it myself.

Anyway, there you have it; my reasons for pestering about fasteners. For those of you whom are willing to help us out...kudos. And for those who are not, I understand completely.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2012, 06:17:46 PM »

Spring in upper photo should be black. I've seen variations in bolts used on untouched cars torn apart over the years. If you are really want to be investigative, buy up the less expensive unmolested project cars, part them out if you want and resell the carcasses. They are out there.

I agree 100%. Pretty ironic but out of the blue a heck of a great guy offered me the same sort of opportunity today...I certainly hope he comes through!
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2012, 06:19:14 PM »

I have gone through a lot of bolts/screws comparing head markings (originals) to the repros which do not match many times but we all know there were many suppliers. As you assumed Marty and I'm with ya, I have not noticed or remember that head marking on the bolt you posted so I will assume also they are not original.  Grin I have mine bagged but will have to dig through the finished and non-finished bolt bags to find. Memory tells me RBW was a predominant one.


Thanks Chick...appreciate the info.
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Mike S
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2012, 06:35:01 PM »

I attached 2 images of the hood catch bolts. One is from a 67 (5B) NOR restored in the mid 80's and one is from an unrestored original 67 (4B) LOS car. The NOR hardware hasn't been 'oiled' in 14 years now.
The restored NOR car had all the hardware go back to each component it was used to mount during the restore process. I checked and found most of the bolts the same size within the engine bay had the same head markings as the hood catch bolts in each car.

Mike
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2012, 08:19:22 PM »

Mike – Thanks for the pics. I sure would like to see more original/untouched fasteners like the one in your bottom pic. Can you make out what is printed on the head? My guess is something similar to 68Zproject's fasteners.
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68camaroz28
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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2012, 09:58:56 PM »

Survivor car has or sure looks like a RBW bolt. There is no clear path for bolts/screws and it takes time. I know and appreciate as I'm restoring as you may know a 68 Z/28 and its taken just huge amounts of hours researching as so many of the small details are not in a book or bits and pieces of info are scattered among many resources. I will be glad to assist any way I can as this and any theads concerning bolts/screws are helpful in our restoration endeavor.
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Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2012, 10:18:49 PM »

Hi Marty,

  I have the original car on a lift so I have to climb up to look at it. I don't mind though.
I cleaned the head on the LOS car and the markings are RBW in a semi cross hair. Interesting enough is that these exact RBW markings are on the other same size bolts used in the engine bay including the battery tray, the passenger side of the radiator mounting bracket, fender braces, horn mounting / hood strike assembly and the two front fender to inner tub bolts (5 on each side). BUT.....these bolts (not including the 4 hood catch in question) have a flat side on the inner and outer compared to the flat outer roud inner shape of the 4 catch bolts (see image of the LOS shroud bolt for the flat inner/outer).
 I'm on a roll....looking at the NOR car, same thing...same 'C' in a semi cross hair head markings used for the hood catch BUT the other bolts mentioned above in the engine bay and fender are exactly as the shroud bolt (see NOR shroud image), flat sides outer and roundish inner. The one exception are 2 fender to inner tub bolts which are flat inside and out and have only the letter 'E' as a marking.
  I suspect the fastener suppliers *may* be near the same geographic region as the assembly plants hence the difference markings. Just a guess.
I may have supplied more info than asked but I found this toipc interesting. Maybe head markings would be a good secondary topic.

Mike
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2012, 10:48:30 PM »

Great pics Mike! There is no way you can supply more info than is asked. To say this is a complicated topic would be the understatement of the year; the more information the better!

I'd have to say we have a match for the ’67 & ’68. Your and 68Zprojects fasteners look identical (RBW). I'm pretty sure all that's lacking is to see if the part numbers from your AIM’s line up. Please keep the rest of the information from your post handy. We'll pay that a visit real soon.  Wink

Any 69’s out there?  Undecided
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2012, 10:50:49 PM »

Survivor car has or sure looks like a RBW bolt. There is no clear path for bolts/screws and it takes time. I know and appreciate as I'm restoring as you may know a 68 Z/28 and its taken just huge amounts of hours researching as so many of the small details are not in a book or bits and pieces of info are scattered among many resources. I will be glad to assist any way I can as this and any theads concerning bolts/screws are helpful in our restoration endeavor.

You've certainly been around the block a time or two...we can certainly use your help Chick! By any chance do you have a pic handy of the fastener you used?
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Marty
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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2012, 12:45:05 AM »

I bought my 68 LOS Camaro in 1990 and had to go throught this same thing. The front end was changed and hardware store fasteners were used. I made lots of trips to salvage yards and finally found all the correct fasteners for the sheetmetal. I also verified them from looking at original cars at Pomona and Long Beach swap meets. RBW and an anchor were seen in 67 and 68. More anchors in 67 and few in 68. In 69 I saw more of the C fasteners. This is mostly the bolts for the fenders to inner fenders, upper round braces, hood latches and radiator support. The bolts into the firewall are different. You need to spend time looking at the AIM and a car to see what part number goes where and how many you need. I have that for the 68 standard front end but it's probably not in a publish ready format.

Martin
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Martin Foltz
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2012, 08:41:46 AM »

Thanks Martin - You are absolutely correct about the bone yards. But my first plan is to get as familiar as I can with the different fasteners and their markings. I would like to know which ones are correct and which ones aren't in the car. Doing it this way will save time and gas.  Wink

My other dilemma is something Ed mentioned a while back; there were several suppliers for every fastener: which can only mean one thing; each First Gen could have had at least 3 different head-markings for each part number. I would like to know how many options (head-marks) I have for each part number. This would undoubtedly make my bone yard search much more productive.

Here is another question; since there were several suppliers and more than one head-mark per part number, could the screws on this hood latch catch and plate, have 3 or more head-markings? So far I haven't seen any for 69, but it would appear my options so far would be "C", "RBW", and the "Anchor".

Sure wish someone would recognize the screw in my first pic. I have these everywhere...from the Z21 front wheel moldings to the fender to fender skirts. including the hood latch assembly.

Man I wish Jerry M. would make an appearance and shed some light on how these issues are dealt with at the Nationals. Something tells me there's a little more leeway than one would think...
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 09:25:04 AM by IZRSSS » Logged
JohnZ
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« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2012, 01:21:46 PM »

I don't know how the Camaro Nationals folks handle fasteners, but I'll tell you how NCRS handles it in Corvette Flight Judging. Since everyone finally understands that there were at least three suppliers for every part number of high-volume fasteners and fasteners were stocked to the line bins by part number, and nobody in any plant paid any attention whatsoever to headmarks, the new generation of NCRS Judging Guides now handle headmarks with flexibility.

In most cases, wording is now used such as "Commonly observed headmarks include XX, XX, and XX, and there may be others".

Every operator had bins of fasteners at his work station, and any single part number's bin could contain bolts with multiple headmarks, or he might grab a handful off the top that were all the same if the bin had just been replenished by the stockman from a fresh box. Any judging organization that doesn't recognize how manufacturing and assembly processes really worked is just subjecting owners/restorers to unnecessary stress when it comes to headmarks.

I'm a member of several NCRS Judging Guide revision teams, and have been instrumental in spreading how headmark judging should be handled across all of the Corvette judging year groups as Judging Guides are revised and updated.
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« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2012, 02:12:23 PM »

John – I hope you don’t mind but it didn’t take me long to copy-paste this statement of yours to my Camaros folder for safe keeping. I don’t know of anyone that would be in a position to argue your point, Nationals or otherwise. And, it certainly makes things manageable and as you’ve stated, relieves much of the stress.

Two last questions John; Does NCRS Top Flight Judging require fasteners to be factory / NOS, or will “correct” repo fasteners suffice?  And, can you tell me if AMK’s fasteners are recognized or acceptable for the NCRS Top Flight Award category?

And last; can you recommend a source that shows which three headmarks are the most recognized for early built 69's?

Much appriciated!

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« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2012, 08:03:16 PM »

Hi Marty,

 I looked over both my 67's tonight and could not find the head marking you show in the original picture. Maybe it was a replacement kit as you suspect?
I did fine another type of marking but more for the bolts used to secure the hood to hinges (4), hinges to fender (4)  and fender to firewall (4)

The 67NOR-hood marking (I'll call 'F')  is seen on all hood to hinge (4), hinge to fender (4) and 2 out of 4 fender to firewall. The remaining 2 have the 3 lines with a B&H imprint.
The cocktail shakers use the same 'F' markings as well. I also found the 'anchor' used on the battery hold down bracket though a different bolt shape

The 67LOS-hood is the 'anchor' type for all 4 hood to hinge bolts. The 'anchor' is also used for the hinge to fender (4) and 'F' bolt for the 4 fender to firewall. This is a hardtop so no cocktail shakers. Interesting enough is the 'F' and 'anchor' bolts appears to be used at both plants. The battery hold down bolt is not readable due to battery acid damage.
 If I can be of any help please let me know.

Mike
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68camaroz28
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« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2012, 11:07:15 PM »

Mike, I'm not saying the 'f' as you call them are incorrect but just a comment that the bolts on the restored car look very nice and the AMK bolt kits have a lot of those 'f' type bolts. I will be going through more of our orig. bolts as I decide to restore or replace and to date I do not remember seeing any 'f' headed bolts but they may be there. To date everywhere the kits had the 'f' bolts I had something different. Do not have enough info to say they are correct or incorrect, only that I'm not seeing them or at least not yet.  Grin
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Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2012, 12:18:13 AM »

Hi Chick,

  I can take a picture of the 'F' bolt from the original 67 LOS car to show the weathered age and that should help prove that period usage. The restored NOR car was completed in 1986 (took 4 years) and I don't think there were any reproducer of bolts at that time  Wink and the 'F' bolts pictured here were restored using black oxide chemicals back then. They stayed well preserved because I use to apply oil twice a year to each bolt head for many years after I stopped showing the car. These aren't today's repos and I'm sure the kits today copied these original patterns.
 The survivor 67 LOS car is completely original , including bolts, with the exception of REAL dated 1974 plug wires (and plugs likely) on the car when I bought it in 1980.

 This whole topic sounds like a good research project. I'm sure a data base can be compiled and bolt marking patters quickly established and even narrow down period correct markings if the sample size is large enough. Tonight I thought of documenting each bolt marking to the manuals part number as an ad-hoc winter project.

Mike
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67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored
IZRSSS
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2012, 10:48:09 AM »

Mike – Appreciate all the pics of your survivor 67’s fasteners. Please keep them coming. Do you have pics of the car you can share?
 
Here are a couple of pics from fasteners that appear to be factory on my 69. I won’t bother mentioning where they're from because I don't have a clue if they are in the right spot. Exception…Rad Support bolt, for obvious reasons. Anyway, the most important issue pending, are the head-marks…once that's figured out I think the rest will be a cake walk.

 Huh Compare your anchor to mine...notice anything Huh

Any 69's out there  Huh

« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 11:46:33 AM by IZRSSS » Logged
IZRSSS
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2012, 10:49:23 AM »

...If either one of these is correct, my guess would be the first one... Roll Eyes
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2012, 11:20:10 AM »

I will be going through more of our orig. bolts as I decide to restore or replace

Chick...or anyone. I see this company pop up quite a bit when talking chemical restoration of fasteners and other metals. One, have you guys ever tried this company (or similar companies/products) and two do you have any before and after pics?

http://www.palmettoenterprises.net/Palmetto_Enterprises/-Welcome-.html
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« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2012, 11:49:27 AM »

John – I hope you don’t mind but it didn’t take me long to copy-paste this statement of yours to my Camaros folder for safe keeping. I don’t know of anyone that would be in a position to argue your point, Nationals or otherwise. And, it certainly makes things manageable and as you’ve stated, relieves much of the stress.

Two last questions John; Does NCRS Top Flight Judging require fasteners to be factory / NOS, or will “correct” repo fasteners suffice?  And, can you tell me if AMK’s fasteners are recognized or acceptable for the NCRS Top Flight Award category?

And last; can you recommend a source that shows which three headmarks are the most recognized for early built 69's?

Much appriciated!



NCRS judging is based on the APPEARANCE of "typical of factory production"; for fasteners, that generally means headmarks that are typical of that period in time, and specifically, correct configuration of the fastener (the part number dictated the fastener's configuration - plain or recessed head, flanged or plain head, separate or captured washer, washer type, etc.).

There were LOTS of headmarks during that era that are "typical", including TR, UR, RBW, RSC, E, EL, F, AD. D, WB. L, LS, LE, C, M, Anchor, and others, in Grade 2 (plain), Grade 5 (3 lines), and Grade 8 (6 lines); that's why it's insanity to claim that only "one" bolt is correct for any usage.

If a fastener is noted that's the correct configuration, but has a headmark not typical of that period (like some AMK fasteners have), it's a very minor deduction or just a notation on the judging sheet with no deduction. There are lots of things more important than fastener headmarks, and experienced judges know which headmarks are typical of the era and which ones aren't.

NCRS doesn't recommend or endorse anyone's parts, but AMK is an excellent source for correctly-configured fasteners; sometimes the headmarks are typical of the era, and sometimes they aren't; the fastener's configuration is far more important than the headmarks.
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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2012, 11:55:08 AM »

Palmetto results with photos are here and T.C.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2012, 12:24:01 PM »

John - That certainly clears the air and together with your previous post, gives me the information I need to tackle this phase of the restoration...Thanks again!

Scott – I have learned during the past year or so you are as much a perfectionist as the next guy. Please give me your thoughts with regards to these products. One of my concerns is the seemingly delicate head marks. Is this stuff like layers of paint that can obscure these marks, or is the chemical reactions, for a lack of better terms; Head-Mark Friendly?
 
I'll do a search to check those others out as well…Thanks!

« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 01:50:07 PM by IZRSSS » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2012, 03:40:52 PM »

Consult the following for a good resource for fasteners & markings and manufactures.

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE
HANDBOOK
LISTING OF
FASTENER MANUFACTURER’S
IDENTIFICATION SYMBOLS

See MIL-HDBK-57E

Jim W
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Jim
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« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2012, 06:15:05 PM »

So the "f" looking mark is Ferndale Fasteners, Madison Hgts, MI and the RBW is RB&W Corp (now RB&W Manufacturing, after several changes of ownership) with plants in Ohio.  A few others I can recall is the CL (overlayed) which is Centerline Tool & Engineering Corp, the circle with a "lazy" S in it which is Semco Fastener, and a "lazy" S without a circle which is Semblex Corp.  These things remind me of cattle brands from the old western movies.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2012, 07:11:13 PM »

Hey...almost as fun as collecting coins.  Wink

Are SEMCO & SEMS the same thing?
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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2012, 08:21:26 PM »

Hey...almost as fun as collecting coins.  Wink

 I'll second that!

Mike
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« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2012, 09:32:17 PM »

Firstgenaddict has countless bolt photos on his survivor 69. Check out his site. Palmetto does not build up like paint, nor does it destroy the metal.
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68camaroz28
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« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2012, 10:06:40 PM »

I will be going through more of our orig. bolts as I decide to restore or replace

Chick...or anyone. I see this company pop up quite a bit when talking chemical restoration of fasteners and other metals. One, have you guys ever tried this company (or similar companies/products) and two do you have any before and after pics?

http://www.palmettoenterprises.net/Palmetto_Enterprises/-Welcome-.html

Yep, I have used it and it works great! Need (for best results) to glass bead the parts and your ready to cook. If the bolt/screw heads are pitted they are not going to look great as you can imagine. Clean bolt head and they will look new. Now, not sure of your two radiator support bolts but the ones from AMK are exactly what our 68 had and several other non-restored Camaros including two 69's. Here are some examples of restoring the shift rods, etc. on our Muncie shifter, and original body mount bolts using Palmetto products.

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Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
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« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2012, 10:49:42 PM »

Hey...almost as fun as collecting coins.  Wink

Are SEMCO & SEMS the same thing?

Sems was a division of Textron. I've documented over 30 manufacturers of bolts used on first gens and I'm sure there were more. Like John Z. stated there are so many variables such as sourcing issue, shortages, build periods , plants and ECO's during the year that you can only go by what was typically used, which is why untouched benchmark cars are so important.
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« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2012, 11:16:07 PM »

Mike – Appreciate all the pics of your survivor 67’s fasteners. Please keep them coming. Do you have pics of the car you can share?
 
Here are a couple of pics from fasteners that appear to be factory on my 69. I won’t bother mentioning where they're from because I don't have a clue if they are in the right spot. Exception…Rad Support bolt, for obvious reasons. Anyway, the most important issue pending, are the head-marks…once that's figured out I think the rest will be a cake walk.

 Huh Compare your anchor to mine...notice anything Huh

Any 69's out there  Huh


That anchor does look a little crooked. The ones I have look like yours! Your two middle bolts in the picture is what is in our 69 NOR Oct 69 (10D) L48 hood latch. Your top RBW bolt are in numerous places like the fender/rad support bar. Your bottom RBW bolt looks like a bolt from the 12 bolt rear end cover but only you would know for sure. Here is a picture of a new bolt for the rad. support to sub-frame that is the same as what was in which comes in the bolt kits I purchased from Heartbeat. Also a bolt from the rear bumper guard from a NOR 69.
Same mfg. just a little different.

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Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
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« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2012, 08:56:58 AM »

Sems was a division of Textron. I've documented over 30 manufacturers of bolts used on first gens and I'm sure there were more. Like John Z. stated there are so many variables such as sourcing issue, shortages, build periods , plants and ECO's during the year that you can only go by what was typically used, which is why untouched benchmark cars are so important.

Thank you Steve...PM Sent...

Scott - Thanks for reminding me. James has some excellent pics on his site as you've mentioned.
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« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2012, 09:19:54 AM »

Chick - I really like how your hardware turned out using Palmetto's product. And thanks for the tip on glass beading, the head-marks look great!

Just an observation between the two anchor fasteners pictured (mine vs Mike's); the anchors are positioned upside down to one another as they relate to the grade bars.

Very happy to hear about the middle bolts {pics in reply 20} matching your 69’s L48’s hood latch. Does the same hold true for all the bolts/screws (with captured/serrated washer) on the latch and plate or just for the horns?
 
Good news on the top RBW bolts/screws. The bottom RBW bolt/screw is the top fasteners for the condenser to upper rad support (AIM C60/B1).
 
Appreciate the pics of the rad to sub frame bolts and the rear bumper guard bolts/screws.

This pic shows the screws on my rear BG’s...
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« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2012, 10:12:47 AM »

I promise to fact find only one fastener per week.

Oh well... Undecided

Dug up a few old pics...

Please take another look at #2 below and the fastener in my first post. Isn't this a LF GR-5.1? If so, is it a factory correct head-mark? I have too many of these for them not to be correct. The car had a frame on restoration. I don't think #2 bolt would have been touched/swapped. I know I need to be concerned with configurations also, but...one bridge at a time. Wink
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« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2012, 10:13:50 AM »

...
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« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2012, 11:31:22 AM »

FWIW I talked with Dave at HeartBeat City about bolts for my rear spoiler and he said they get all their bolts from AMK and repackage into smaller or single service packages. All this was because of the $30.00 minimum AMK has and a lot of people only need 4 bolts like me for my spoiler.
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« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2012, 12:09:10 PM »

Back in the mid-60's, the RBW headmark was for Russell, Birdsall & Ward (which later went through several ownership changes). The stylized/angled "F" with a horizontal line through it was Falcon Forge.
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« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2012, 07:30:50 PM »

Daniel - Thanks for the heads-up. A person can save a few bucks...

John - Thanks, I found a few fasteners w/that same stylized "F".

Can someone tell me if you have this fastener holding down your passenger seat? I'm asking because I have two completely different styles for each seat. I think its a Fisher application and I also think they show fixed studs w/nuts on the top side.
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« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2012, 09:01:03 PM »

Hi Marty,

  I almost knocked myself out! Moving the seat forward to look at the rear bolts and unhooking and pushing the seat back forward against the steering wheel, I let go when I got down to look at the bolts and 'bang'! The metal seat back came down hard  Shocked

   I check my NOR car and have a mixture of the SEMS ( 6 out of 8 ) bolt you show and also another marking shown in the attached picture. The picture shows two 'L's opposite and flipped to each other and the outer 'C' seems to have a hook on the top end.
  The LOS car has all 8 the same and that is the same style you show but the head markings look like the letters 'FH' surrounded by a circle made up of 2 fine lines. The letters are faint though.

Mike
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« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2012, 09:14:55 PM »

Been there done that...just when you think you have these cars figured out they beat you up side the head...  Grin

Really appreciate the info. Not really sure what the heck I was looking at in the Fisher manual. I'll do a little more digging...good to know they're the same type. I can make out the peri-teeth/captured washer in your pic. 

Thanks!
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« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2012, 10:00:44 PM »

I'll do a little more digging...

Should have looked a little closer (underlined in red)...
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« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2012, 10:10:28 PM »

Several things:
I have an older fastener mfg ID booklet laying around (somewhere). There's two suppliers that used the stylized FF. I recalll Flying Forge was one, but nice to have it confirmed as a GM supplier. I've seen these more on 67's.
Most of the E's I have seen have smaller E's.
Yes, the seat bolts have the serrations on the washers. Never figured out why.
Lots of RBW, C, Anchor, and some E's on 69 NOR's.
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« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2012, 11:10:29 PM »

Wow! If you locate your fastener mfg ID booklet please let me know the title and the author (God I hope it isn't called; Fastener Mfg ID Booklet  Undecided).

Also, the info on the head-marks helps a lot!

Thanks Kurt!
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« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2012, 02:34:42 PM »

I have been glass beading some of my 1969 front end bolts before phosphate, here are some pictures & quantity found. Built Nov. 68.
I have many more to clean and will photo those also.
George
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« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2012, 03:33:41 PM »

George - big time welcome! I think your the guy we've been waiting for!

Finally someone who also has the "LF" fastener. You mention only one found but even at that its great news. Like I've mentioned before, I have more of those than I care to count...

I was hoping you or someone could help me out with this; the pic below shows a fastener with the end pinched off. I have others that have threads all the way to the tip. I think I read somewhere that the pinched off version is an earlier production fastener. First is this correct, and second when did the transition take place for the all thread?

In addition, I've been trying to find out what the term is for this cool hex flange pattern. For a lack of better terms, I'm calling it "shamrock/clover" hex flange. I have quite a few of these as well. If you know the term please let me know.

Our cars were built around the same time (mine 12A LOS). Is yours a NOR or a LOS?

And finally...your glass beading results are great. Are there any home style/weekender blasting machines you would be willing to recommend?

Bottom pic shows the fasteners for the RS Actuator Support. Again, not sure what the correct term is for the washer on the nut-end...I'll be throwing these in as I get them completed. If their wrong holler...anyone.

Again...Thanks!!!
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« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2012, 05:26:18 PM »

And finally...your glass beading results are great. Are there any home style/weekender blasting machines you would be willing to recommend?
  Hi Marty,

  I use this low cost blaster I bought from Eastwood in the 80's. It works great for small work and I have used it for cleaning bolts prior to black oxide and also pulleys before parkerizing as well as other small jobs. You have to make sure the media stays dry or else it can clog at times (like many blasting setups).
http://www.eastwood.com/blast-out-of-a-bucket-abrasive-gun.html

Mike
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« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2012, 08:19:01 PM »

Thanks Mike - I'll take all the advise I can get. Here's another one recommended by a friend;

http://www.eastwood.com/speed-blast-gravity-feed-blaster.html
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« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2012, 10:41:08 PM »

Marty, don't want to stray too far from what this thread is about but as far as an inexpensive glass bead cabinet check out harbor freight. I bought one on sale and with a coupon it was only $169.95 and believe it or not it works great. Trust me, even in a cabinet you still have dust so I spent time sealing it up better. I also made a wood platform (few inches high) with dolllies so I wheel it outside. For safety I still wear a resporator as that stuff is heck on your lungs. I can tell you this, you will use it a lot more than you first think so give the purchase careful consideration. Funny story- This Fall Carlisle I go and purchase a glass bead cabinet vac and it's advertised as having 30% more sucking power. So I hook it up and turn it on and within 2 or 3 seconds it sucks one of the gloves off. Guess I had the cabinet too sealed off Smiley
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69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
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R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
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« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2012, 08:32:17 AM »

Yep I have a habit of doing that...straying off topic. In fact now that I think of it, my teachers said the same thing; ADD... Undecided  Wink

Glad you mentioned Harbor Freight...love that store! And, thanks for the heads-up on the Caution Lungs part. I have asthma and this could really fire it up.

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« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2012, 07:38:09 PM »

I have the same fender stylized "F" screws George shows up top. Plus this "Anchor" version...(1/2" x 1" w/~1" Captured Washer)...
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« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2012, 10:04:37 PM »

Marty, Glad to help out. I have learned sooo much here and just want to give back a little. I would hope some day to see a published judging rules to use as a guide line.
The blaster we use is a Eastwood bench top. Kind of small but you can roll it into the corner when not needed. I like "Aloxglass" from Grainger, aluminum oxide glass bead mix.Also uses our shop vac for dust control. Back to the bolts.
I wanted to take pictures of the fasteners before I blasted them for my records. These were all soaked in Evaporust overnight. The picture of the nuts with captured washers show allmost 2 different finishes but that might be from the Evaporust. I found 3 serrated washer bolts 2 I believe were on the horn brackets. The blaster bolt is from below the cross member and held the 396 AC only Air shield on. I remember thinking it got ground on the pavement or something. That picture is for BlackOut Steve. More to come.
George
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« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2012, 10:06:53 PM »

More pictures
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« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2012, 10:09:03 PM »

And still more
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« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2012, 09:46:14 AM »

Great pics guys. If you find any head-markings not shown below please post so I can add to this list. Please include a pic of the shaft (pinched/threaded/cropped tip), the year of your car. And, this probably doesn't matter, but also include the factory (LA/NOR).

Thanks again!
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« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2012, 01:35:21 PM »

Body Mounting Fasteners: AIM 1/D1 {GR-8} E & RBW...
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« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2012, 03:30:56 PM »

Couple more...
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« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2012, 05:42:19 PM »

That L5 head marking is a RB&W product, not sure what the D one is.
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« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2012, 06:33:19 PM »

Outstanding chart, Marty! Thanks for taking the time to plot this and share.
I might add that there is also a bolt used to secure the front fender to inner wheel tub that has only the letter 'E' and no grade markings plus a squared inner wall shape (compared to round outer and squared inner).
I can send it shot of it if you want.

Mike
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« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2012, 06:38:47 PM »

Mike - if it isn't too much trouble please do, that way we can use yours as a reference...

Thanks!
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« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2012, 07:00:06 PM »

 Here ya go. This is from my 67 5B NOR. The majority are "-C-" but this was the different marking.

Mike
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« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2012, 10:28:32 PM »

There's that cool hex flange again. Thanks Mike I'll add it to the list.

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« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2012, 10:42:34 PM »

That L5 head marking is a RB&W product, not sure what the D one is.

Thanks for the info on the L5. Do you know what brought about the change? Just curious...
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« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2012, 10:15:44 AM »

No idea, they also used an L8 and I believe L9, plus some other non "RB&W" head markings.  Some of the other fastener manufacturers also used several logos, maybe different divisions or plants. 
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« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2012, 10:53:07 AM »

15 more...
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« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2012, 10:56:08 AM »

Each time a sheet of 15 is filled I will stack each one so we don't have to back track...
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« Reply #68 on: January 25, 2012, 05:13:48 PM »

If you have a C60 car check the plenum valve's fasteners. For some reason I have 8mm's??? Can anyone verify???

Also, the fastener w/a 2 and 2 flying SS under it looks strange. Anyone have this or know what company made/makes it?
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« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2012, 06:51:50 AM »

Not a great picture but the speed nuts on the cowl blower motor box are all stamped with a 'C'
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69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
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« Reply #70 on: January 26, 2012, 12:48:03 PM »

Let me know if any of these fasteners are not original to these cars...

Thanks again Chick!

15 more...
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« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2012, 12:52:26 PM »

...the two previous sheets...
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« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2012, 01:02:55 PM »

Some guesswork/SWAG-ing on head marking pics above:

D - possibly G.B. Dupont of Troy MI (with three radiating grade 5 hardness markings), entered into a L.P. with Kamax of Germany around 1974 and not sure if the D mark was dropped or retained afterwards

O - with six radiating grade 8 hardness marks?, possibly Alcoa Global Fasteners of La Puenta CA or more likely Ring Screw of Troy, MI

TR - Towne Robinson of Dearborn, MI.  Went out of business early 1990s.  I think AMK still supplies TR, maybe being reproduced today?

C w/ H inside - Cold Heading Co., Warren, MI

S inside circle - possibly Specials, Inc. of Westfield, MA, which would not fit the OH/MI/CA pattern of fastener suppliers

P - possibly Prestige Stamping, Warren MI

ER in circle - no idea

2 w/ SS below - no idea

C - no idea

= = - no idea, I don't think there would not be any metric fasteners on a 60s GM vehicle, US built

M underlined - Ingersoll/INFASCO of Ontario uses this, but I think always with a triangle. Unlikely.

rectangle - no idea

A - no idea

L inside G - no idea, maybe Great Lakes as I see they are an AMK supplier?

L and F - no idea



  
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« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2012, 05:17:22 PM »

Thanks Russ! Knowing who these companies are is a big part of the battle won. The other half is determining which of these companies actually supplied fasteners to GM during the First Gen run... and which ones are correct for each individual year. From what I've gathered so far, many of the same fasteners have been observed on both 67's & 68's. As for the 69, it too has many fasteners used during the first two years but a few appear to be unique to only the 69.

Here are the head marks John mentioned. Those highlighted in red are the ones we've managed to find so far (he also mentioned there are others, many, many more...); TR, UR, RBW, RSC, E, EL, F, AD, D, WB, L, LS, LE, C, M, ANCHOR.

If anyone is positive any of these are or are not factory First Gen fasteners (pictorials) please let us know so we can either keep them or cross them off.
Here are all the pages with numbers for each head-mark...numbering each one should help for future reference (sorry Russ I should have done this from the get-go).
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« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2012, 05:18:46 PM »

...
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« Reply #75 on: January 26, 2012, 06:25:52 PM »

37 looks like Camcar Div of Textron, TapTite Products, Belvidere IL
45 maybe INFASCO, Quebec
38 looks like logo for Korea Bolt Ind. Co, LTD Seoul 

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« Reply #76 on: January 26, 2012, 09:23:40 PM »

Great subject and one that I have worked to document over the years. As JohnZ pointed out, several suppliers provided hardware for common used fasteners.  Anytime I find a survivor with its original hardware, I document the car's VIN number and assembly build date.  I believe this is important so that we can attempt to identify common used hardware head markings based on the car’s assembly plant, build date, and possibly the VIN sequence.  Attempted to document this might be a long-shot, but it's all we have to go on.  The Corvette restores have done this and now NCRS has a guide on hardware to refer to.  We, the 1st Gen "Camaro Clan" can do the same. 

Below are a series of pictures from a survivor '69 Pace Car, Norwood 03D build car.  It is locally owned and has been in the family since new.  Unfortunately, I did not get a picture of the VIN, but the plant and build date are the primary car data points to document a car's hardware. If it gets down to a VIN sequence, we can cross that bridge if one we get there.  I’ll searched thru my picture library for more survivor detail of hardware and post them later. 

If any one else has survivor pictures, I would love to see them.  Hopefully this activity eventually may led to a special technical section on CRG that focuses on hardware, and a  judging guide similar to what NCRS uses.

PS: Notice in the picture of the cowl panel screw, that the shim is black oxide in color and not silver/Zinc plated. 
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« Reply #77 on: January 26, 2012, 09:24:57 PM »

Here is picture set #2.
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« Reply #78 on: January 26, 2012, 09:35:25 PM »

And picture set #3, with a couple of rubber grommets pictures also.
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« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2012, 10:53:23 PM »

Dave - glad to have you aboard. Nothing like having access to a survivor. I'll add the "A" to the list below. I can't tell what the mark is in your first pic, or the bumper guard. And we do have a pic of that same anchor. Please keep the pics coming.

TR, UR, RBW, RSC, E, EL, F, AD, D, WB, L, LS, LE, C, M, ANCHOR...A

George - can you confirm the "L F" in your pic (reply 46) is factory?
Thanks



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« Reply #80 on: January 26, 2012, 11:02:28 PM »

Each time a fastener is confirmed as factory I will place a green asterisk in the lower left corner of the box. If anyone disagrees please let us know...judges  Huh
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« Reply #81 on: January 26, 2012, 11:03:07 PM »

...
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« Reply #82 on: January 27, 2012, 08:43:31 AM »

There are three of these fasteners on the crankshaft pulley. Unfortunately this is the best pic I can get. Does anyone recognize the head-mark & if so, please post a pic of the same mark or sketch and post. Not looking for Da Vinci quality. Any sketch will do.  Smiley

Thanks

...Dave - could be the same company that made the fastener in your first pic...
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« Reply #83 on: January 28, 2012, 07:53:14 AM »

These are the last of them for this car (at least until I start tearing it apart piece by piece Undecided)...
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« Reply #84 on: January 28, 2012, 10:13:06 AM »

The fender battery lead ground screw is a "D" head marking.  See the close-up picture attached.  The AIM manual Section 12, page 161 for L6 and page 162 for V8, call out screw #9420415 as detail #8 and the toothed lock washer #174916 as detail #7 for L6 or detail #2 & #3 for V8.  Both are available from AMK.  The AMK part numbers are: Screw #B11097 (6-pc pack) or #B11099 (25-pc pack); washer #B-11314.  Both are Zink (dark silver) plated.

As you inventory or catalog the assembly manual, you will find that screw 9420415 was commonly used and called out in the following pages and detail numbers I list below.  I inventoried nearly the entire '69 AIM and cross referenced the hardware part numbers with the AMK catalog.  I did this about 3 - 4 years ago as a winter time project to update the hardware on my car to look new and on par with the rest of the restoration.  Some of my car's original hardware cleaned up nicely and was reused but a large portion of it was rusty and pitted and had to be replaced.

Screw 9420415 & Toothed Lock Washer 174916 (if applicable) locations:

P28 Screw detail #3 – windshield washer jar bracket to core support (qty. 3)
P460 Screw detail “Prod Screws” call for same screw detail #3 noted on P28 for washer jar mounting for the RS application
P161 Screw detail #8 & L Washer detail #7 - auxiliary battery ground wire to fender 
P182 Screw detail #13 - license plate bracket retainer, upper center location
P155 Screw detail #3 & L Washer detail #4 - frd. lamp harness wiring ground to core support
P155 Screw detail #12 - horn relay & buzzer asm. retainer to firewall
P155 L Washer detail #9 & Nut detail #10, #121743 (AMK #B-10502, Zink-dark silver) - wire lead to alternator
P156 Screw detail #7 & L Washer detail #8 – head lamp wiring ground wire to core support, LH side
P439 Screw detail #5 (#9428476 same as #9420415) - U63/U69 AM/FM radio capacitor & lower ground strap to firewall
P440 Screw detail #4 – U63/U69 upper ground straps (qty. 2) to firewall
P441 Screw detail #2 & #5 – U63/U69 lower ground strap to frame & forward ground strap between inner fender and frame (total qty 4)

Note: There may be more callouts in the AIM for Screw 9420415/9428476 and/or L Washer 174916.  I stopped once I combed thru the AIM for the standard assembly build uses and options that I have on my car. I did not inventory the C60 AC option as this option did not apply to my Z28.

If you find errors in this list, or discover additional areas in the AIM where this hardware is used, please edit this list for the CRG member’s benefit.  If you have, or access to, a survivor with this hardware still in place, please share a picture of the screw if the head marking is different.  Also, please state the car’s assembly build plant and build date.

Thanks!
 
 
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« Reply #85 on: January 28, 2012, 12:41:41 PM »

If you have a C60 car check the plenum valve's fasteners. For some reason I have 8mm's??? Can anyone verify???

There were no metric fasteners in the plants until the very late 70's.
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« Reply #86 on: January 28, 2012, 02:09:56 PM »

Incorrect fasteners will be marked w/a red asterisks.

Thanks John & thank you Dave!
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« Reply #87 on: January 28, 2012, 02:41:37 PM »

Marty, I can not figure out where the "LF" bolt came from in reply #46. It looks like a battery hold down bolt but it is 3/8" not typical 5/16". One of my front fenders was replaced at some point, so maybe this 3/8" bolt got replaced at that time. I blasted some more fasteners today and will post those pictures for your collection.
I like the charts you made up, great information.
George.
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« Reply #88 on: January 28, 2012, 02:42:56 PM »

More pictures
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« Reply #89 on: January 28, 2012, 03:43:02 PM »

Thanks George. They were a pain at first but now they go together pretty quick.

Both you and Mike have #11. I think we're pretty dad-gum close to a match but there are subtle differences. I tried to point them out below. I think I'd like to see a couple more before calling it a keeper. KIM...the hook might just be a flaw in the stamping process...I just want to make sure.

#13 is definately a keeper. I can't see any variations. In addition, mine also has the pinched point. I think I read somewhere that this is an early production shaft. The all thread (down to the point) was introduced latter in the First Gen run. Although both were used. I think I'll call the S's keepers.

Your thoughts?

NOTE: IIRC, our own John was responsible for the all thread fastener... Shocked

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« Reply #90 on: January 28, 2012, 07:44:11 PM »

I blasted some sheet metal screws and took pictures today. The screw ( 9420415 ) Dave69x33 posted I found 3 variations of it. D, RBW,& Blank. The smaller sheet metal screws I may not be 100% correct on the diameter.
George
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« Reply #91 on: January 28, 2012, 07:46:22 PM »

More pictures

<edit - removed pics #6 and #7 - see updated versions below.>
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« Reply #92 on: January 28, 2012, 07:47:20 PM »

More pictures
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« Reply #93 on: January 28, 2012, 09:08:47 PM »

Thanks George and keep em comin!

Question mark simply means we're looking for a match...
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« Reply #94 on: January 28, 2012, 09:10:10 PM »

Update...not set in stone so if there are any objections let us know...
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« Reply #95 on: January 28, 2012, 09:12:53 PM »

...Update...
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« Reply #96 on: January 29, 2012, 01:15:10 AM »

I also initally bought a few reproduction bolts to kick-start the restoration.  Though the quality was very good, the head markings differed from what was on my car originally.  Thereafter, I glass-beaded about 600+ of the original bolts, fasteners, nuts, etc and had each replated.

Here's a link for pics of each of the various bolts and the area/component the belong to:  http://s1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/

If you need further details on any, let me know and I can easily take a better picture and post accordingly.
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« Reply #97 on: January 29, 2012, 09:55:43 AM »

Hans - I feel like I've died and gone to nut heaven!  Grin
 
I plan to go through your collection and compile all of your "Head-Markings" into one or two sheets. Once this is completed you will be able to tell which ones haven't been included and or are missing.  If it isn't too much trouble I will then request that you take additional pics of those I have missed so they too can be included in the collection.
 
Please keep in mind; all I am looking for at this point are head-markings. Part numbers/locations are a whole other journey. If its okay, I will lean pretty heavy on you guys; including George, Dave and others for both those topics once this head-marking bridge has been crossed.

Again...big time thanks!!!

Marty

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« Reply #98 on: January 29, 2012, 10:22:20 AM »

Marty as you know I have all my bolts in bags. If you have a question about a particular bolt I will look at mine to give the info off it. When things get better for me I planned on going thru my inventory and document it for you.
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« Reply #99 on: January 29, 2012, 11:01:11 AM »

"Shh", your my "ACE in the whole"...  Wink

Seriously...if it isn't too much trouble can you please take photos of each of the different head-marks from your collection (weather permitting). I would like to record them seperately into their own sheet/sheets. Just send them to my email address and I'll post them on this thread when complete. That would be a huge help!!

Thanks Dan!

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« Reply #100 on: January 29, 2012, 11:45:39 AM »

I checked the small sheet metal screws this morning & I gave two photos #6 & #7 the wrong descriptions. I can't replace those photos but Marty maybe you can?
Sorry for the misinformation. Revised photos attached. George.
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« Reply #101 on: January 29, 2012, 11:57:05 AM »

Minor variations in the same headmark are very common - those screws/bolts were cold-headed at very high speed (think machine-gun rate of fire), and the heading dies were changed regularly.
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« Reply #102 on: January 29, 2012, 12:47:24 PM »

Han's - Here are the head-marks from your collection. As mentioned earlier...please post pics of the head-marks that are missing from my pics. I know there are several. I just couldn't quite make them out.

Thanks!

George...thanks for the revised pics.

John - thanks for clarifying the variations in head-marks.
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« Reply #103 on: January 29, 2012, 03:29:49 PM »

Update using Han's fasteners; Again... green asterisks used to confirm factory head-marks but are not set in stone. If anyone disagrees please let us know.

Also added new head-marks to the list that were found in Han's collection & have not been seen in other posts.
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« Reply #104 on: January 29, 2012, 03:30:36 PM »

...
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« Reply #105 on: January 29, 2012, 03:31:54 PM »

Very cool!  Thanks for taking the time to document them.
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« Reply #106 on: January 29, 2012, 03:46:36 PM »

Han's - You are more than welcome!!! Please take additional pics of the head-marks from your collection. Those that I didn't include because I could not tell what they were.

George - Am I seeing things or is there a mark in the middle of all the rings (pic below)?

Thanks guys!
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« Reply #107 on: January 29, 2012, 04:05:56 PM »

Here are a few more. I'll try to take the same shots from both Camaros (67 LOS 4B unrestored and NOR 5B restored in mid 80's)

Enjoy!
Mike


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67 LOS SS/RS L35 Hardtop - Original w/UOIT
67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored
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« Reply #108 on: January 29, 2012, 04:07:37 PM »

and few more....

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« Reply #109 on: January 29, 2012, 04:09:03 PM »

a few more....traction bar bolts
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« Reply #110 on: January 29, 2012, 04:40:50 PM »

Mike - Can you help me out?

Reply #108;
2ND pic - What is printed on the head? Something alloy...
3rd pic - RBW?
4Th pic - If that's the head of a Viper you win the prize for the coolest head-mark!!!  Shocked

Reply #109;
2ND pic - what is that head-mark?

Thanks again Mike!
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« Reply #111 on: January 29, 2012, 05:48:49 PM »

Here are zooms of the three.
The LOS 12 bolt rear cover are unique and I have never seen them before. That marking is on all 12 bolts. The shoulders are still covered in grease.
The marking sort of looks like a hand in one part?

The traction bar is the letter 'P' but with the center filled in.

The brake regulator bolt is the same for LOS and NOR.

The 'alloy' bolt is 'Supertarium Alloy'
I can't find that on the web. Maybe that's an in-house invented word?

Mike
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« Reply #112 on: January 29, 2012, 06:51:58 PM »

Very cool...I'll add them to the list.

I thought I might have the viper/hand on mine. No dice but I came up with two I haven't seen yet; what looks like a ">" w/dash or a "Z" and a "B&H"...
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« Reply #113 on: January 29, 2012, 07:28:48 PM »

 Is your 'Z' bolt from the rear end cover? It sure looks close to my semi-Z bolt markings from my rear end cover, doesn't it?  Huh

Mike
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« Reply #114 on: January 29, 2012, 07:45:52 PM »

Now that you mention it...ya! Let me try to get a better pic...
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« Reply #115 on: January 29, 2012, 08:26:08 PM »

Mike - yup yours and mine are the same. Plus it makes sense...their both 12 bolts from LA. The subtle differences could be a prime example of what John spoke of earlier.

By any chance do you have a shot of the underside? I'll bet yours are serrated also.

Heck, for a minute I thought you had a viper head mark.

...Is the "P" in your first pic a mirror image, or is it a backwards P? I'm asking because I have several P's also...
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« Reply #116 on: January 29, 2012, 09:03:43 PM »

 Here is another random one removed from the rear (the first time off the car since 67!)
They look close though mine is disconnected. If it was the machining stamping cast that was 'worn' then possibly 100's to 1000's of these could have been produced.
Yours and mine have the same head shape otherwise and look approximately the same size.

Mike
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« Reply #117 on: January 29, 2012, 09:12:38 PM »

Great pics!!! Anything on the P (mirror or backwards)?
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« Reply #118 on: January 29, 2012, 09:24:20 PM »

Great pics!!! Anything on the P (mirror or backwards)?
Damn! it 's reversed. I took it upside down because it was the only way I could get a focus shot of it and flipped it vertically but forgot horizontal.
Good catch. It's a 'P' though.

Mike
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« Reply #119 on: January 29, 2012, 09:33:33 PM »

Excellent! That's what I was hoping to hear. I have several P's and you are the first to confirm! I'll have an update here in a sec...After that...stick a fork in me...I'm done for the day  Wink

Thanks for all the help Mike!!!
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« Reply #120 on: January 29, 2012, 09:45:56 PM »

Update...Green asterisks confirm factory head-marks. In addition...new head-marks added to the list...
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« Reply #121 on: January 29, 2012, 09:46:55 PM »

Update cont'd...
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« Reply #122 on: January 29, 2012, 09:47:28 PM »

Update cont'd...
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« Reply #123 on: January 29, 2012, 11:02:50 PM »

Marty there is some great work going on here but it is becoming quite apparent there are a lot of suppliers, right? Smiley
What I'm starting to think is it would be great to start to put part #'s with key componets and determine what the normal mix of suppliers were with a specific bolt. I will try to give the part # on any bolts I give in the future if I can find it.
Just finished rebuilding our M21 and all the side cover bolts are 'sbc' along with the tail-stock to main housing except for one 7/16 'L5'.
The 2 rear trans cushion mount bolts part#9419073 were 'bIs'
While cleaning the Fisher body window guides all the bolts were 'TTL'


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« Reply #124 on: January 30, 2012, 08:12:49 AM »

Chick – Absolutely Part #S and Fastener locations are critical. However, here are problems I see if we start combining more than one topic/phase under the same heading; Look at how much information has been gathered in such a short period of time for just one phase (Head-Marks). Compound this by including each fastener & part # as they relate to the AIM & I think it will be information overload. But here is my other fear; if we don't act now to collect the data you've mentioned we might not get this opportunity again. Folks like you, Mike, Dave, George, Hans and others will simply install all of the fasteners back onto their vehicles and the data will be lost.
 
Here is my suggestion; I am no good at multitasking, just ask my wife…I focus on one topic, try to do it well and move onto the next. I need someone to take the bull by the horns and head-up the next two phases of this study; Fastener Part #'S & dimensions & Fastener Part #'S as they correspond to the AIM. And we also need to get a handle on which fasteners went with which years (67,68,69). IMHO both of which are much more complicated than what we're doing here. I'm not quite sure how these two topics should proceed but I do know they should be started in conjunction with each other, and there has to be a plan of attack so order is maintained.
 
Tough call and I sure could use some advice…your thoughts or anyone else?

BTW, thanks for the pics. I'll add them to the list...
 
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« Reply #125 on: January 30, 2012, 08:46:48 AM »

Mike - can I get a couple more pics of your "GL" fastener? I would like to include it in our list of confirmed fasteners but the "hook/barb" raises a question. It could be one of the variations John mentioned and maybe a clearer pic will confirm my suspicions.

Thanks
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« Reply #126 on: January 30, 2012, 12:50:28 PM »

Marty (IZRRSS) above wrote (in part):  "Here is my suggestion; I am no good at multitasking, just ask my wife…I focus on one topic, try to do it well and move onto the next. I need someone to take the bull by the horns and head-up the next two phases of this study; Fastener Part #'S & dimensions & Fastener Part #'S as they correspond to the AIM. And we also need to get a handle on which fasteners went with which years (67,68,69). IMHO both of which are much more complicated than what we're doing here. "

Unless GM/auto industry has their own policies, I would suggest that if the AIM-based PN is the same, then the location doesn't matter..  The PN itself should reflect 'form, fit, and function', and seldom does anything else matter.   IF the same PN is referenced in multiple locations of the AIM (and I don't think yr matters), then the part is the same!

Bottom line:  If we can associate the AIM PN correctly with the various head markings, then I think the job is done.   Am I right ?  or  ?
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« Reply #127 on: January 30, 2012, 12:56:56 PM »

Those TTL appear to be more Camcar Div. of Textron, Tap-Tite Products, related to the #37 above.  What's odd is the one on the left has that flag-in-the-wind looking logo below, which is Elco Industries.
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« Reply #128 on: January 30, 2012, 02:25:28 PM »

Russ - Thanks again! Your knowledge with regards to these companies is impressive. Do you mind sharing where your knowledge comes from? Is there reference material you can recommend? Hope you don't mind me picking your brain.  Wink

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« Reply #129 on: January 30, 2012, 02:48:18 PM »

Marty, I looked at the screw with the circles again with an eye loop. I can see no mark in the center but there are 7-8 circles and more faint towards the center.
I have the 2 bolts from the steering arms to the spindle and the large top spindle bolt to post.
George.
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« Reply #130 on: January 30, 2012, 02:54:37 PM »

Great work so far but has been stated, there are a myriad of variable such as:

*Plant car was built. I would only use known examples (specific car) rather than hardware found in a box from old projects)
*Year & month of vehicle build
*Bolt dimensions: length , thread and type of end
*Finish used: such as zinc, phosphate
*Type of washer,  (if any) Are they serrated, and dimension
*Hex size and if ridged
*Grade
*Where have they been found/used: such as fender, valance etc.

Above are just a few variable that may help define typical usage and bolt specifications.
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« Reply #131 on: January 30, 2012, 04:03:32 PM »

Marty, I looked at the screw with the circles again with an eye loop. I can see no mark in the center but there are 7-8 circles and more faint towards the center.
I have the 2 bolts from the steering arms to the spindle and the large top spindle bolt to post.
George.

George - I posted a side-by-side of two of your fasteners. The rings are evident on both and look more like the result of tooling. What do you think? If you agree then I'm going to have to figure out some sort of design...any suggestions? I thought about just a blank but there is another one that we've identified as a "bubble". What do you think about just a copy-paste?

I'll add the new ones to the list...thanks again!
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« Reply #132 on: January 30, 2012, 04:06:20 PM »

Great work so far but has been stated, there are a myriad of variable such as:

*Plant car was built. I would only use known examples (specific car) rather than hardware found in a box from old projects)
*Year & month of vehicle build
*Bolt dimensions: length , thread and type of end
*Finish used: such as zinc, phosphate
*Type of washer,  (if any) Are they serrated, and dimension
*Hex size and if ridged
*Grade
*Where have they been found/used: such as fender, valance etc.

Above are just a few variable that may help define typical usage and bolt specifications.

Steve - This is obviously a tall order but there isn’t a better resource than right here to get it done! The guys that have contributed so far have been a wealth of information and we both know they are only the tip of the ice berg. With their continued support and the support of others I know we can make this happen.

I am going to see what I can do to coax another member into this discussion/fact finding mission…Nick (aka Dusk Blue Z). He is a whiz at numbers, statistics, etc. and was a huge help in another thread; Economic Expert. I think he can refine the Q&A’s so that the stats make sense in the end. If there is anything else he needs in addition to what you’ve listed I am sure he will let us know.
 
Thanks for joining the discussion!
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« Reply #133 on: January 30, 2012, 05:22:03 PM »

Russ - Thanks again! Your knowledge with regards to these companies is impressive. Do you mind sharing where your knowledge comes from? Is there reference material you can recommend? Hope you don't mind me picking your brain.  Wink

I've been looking at DOD Handbook "Listing of Fastener Manufacturer's Identification Symbols" MIL-HNBK-57F (IS), Revision F, 21 June 2011.  The Defense Logistics Agency (DLA) is responsible for the publication.

I think someone eluded to it here on an earlier post.  A decent start but by no means complete.  That's why I haven't commented on all the markings.  Also some of the logos are hand drawn, plus the ones with just a letter marking are difficult to determine from just a drawing.  A, D, C and E seem to be popular.  The first version came out in Sept 1989, and the manufacturers have to submit their info for inclusion.  So it does not have all manufacturers, and apparently any company that went out of business before this date is not in the book, unless there was an earlier data source rolled into that first version.  It also isn't clear if company's are dropped once they go out of business or are permanently retained.  I'd think there has to be a better source out there, but I've not found one.  I've also tried to verify markings from the handbook by going to the manufacturers' websites, but very few show markings on their sites. 

 
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« Reply #134 on: January 30, 2012, 11:51:24 PM »

Dave got me thinking that he is on to something! He mentioned and showed a #9420415 with the 'D' logo and how it was used in many locations. Maybe what might be of help is to take this in smaller junks so it does not become so large we end up abandoning what can and will be an excellent exercise. I just spent time documenting all the front end screws called out in the 68 AIM. One screw jumps out at you if for anything the amount of locations and pure numbers. Screw # 9780422! 68 AIM pages include 137, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 149, & 153.
What is it used for? -Header panel to fender  -Inner fender to fender  -Support brace from fender to rad. support
Valance to fender extension  -Hood catch support  -Fan shroud brkt to rad. support  -Battery Tray  -Headlight housing
If members check cars and report back we can document the different head markings (suppliers) Marty has graciously put together. Example: Marty had each head marking numbered so with information from members we could at least have a feel for what were the predominant suppliers used for a specific part #. Just a thought!
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« Reply #135 on: January 31, 2012, 12:00:51 AM »

These are now back in the car but the door hinges to door and pillar had three different bolt suppliers. All three I have seen in other cars but it seemed so odd to have three different suppliers in one car but...... Grin
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« Reply #136 on: January 31, 2012, 01:52:23 AM »

    Marty, great research here.  I have 4 bolts that are the bolts that attach the Fan to the Water Pump on a '67 standard LF7.  The head is similar to #25 except it has 6 hash marks, they are also same as NoYenko's post (bottom pic) except these are smaller size.  In the 67 AIM they are bolt #9425390, they are 5/16"-24 X 2 3/4" long
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« Reply #137 on: January 31, 2012, 10:42:14 AM »

FWIW...Not sure what we've gotten ourselves into but let's see if you guys agree with this format?  I honestly believe this is the only way accuracy for something as complicated as this can be maintained. I don't want to leave anything to chance. Think of it as trying to convince people like JohnZ, Kurt, Ed, Steve, JerryM, or any of the big kahunas that a particular fastener in a given location is correct... you are right, they are wrong Wink Smiley Wink and you have the ammo necessary to back it up. I think this is the level of attention that will be required. If you agree...then I think this is what we'll need;

1.   A minimum of three (3) vehicles will be used to confirm each fastener (part#), as specified by the AIM for each model year (Note: In most cases each screw is used in more than one location. Only one fastener photo for each PN is required). Head-mark variations for each PN can referenced here;
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9074.0
2.   Plant where the car was built
3.   Year & Month of vehicle build
4.   Photograph of each fastener (PN) showing dimensions/size, washer type (serrated, captured, shoulder/fixed), thread & end type (pinched/treaded), & finish (zinc, phosphate, etc.
5.   No fasteners w/o the above documentation will be allowed to confirm a given PN/fastener
6.   Fasteners will not be accepted for evaluation unless they are submitted exactly like the photograph below
7.   All fastener PN's will be listed at the beginning of the thread for reference & each year will have its own fastener PN thread
8.   If you cannot post photographs send them to; vsotero78@yahoo.com & I will post them for you
9.   I will assist w/the pics but someone else will have to keep track of all the fastener PN's per AIM's. My suggestion is one person for each year...

Please KIM...this will have to be a separate thread & cannot be included here. And, this is strictly preliminary and will not begin until everyone agrees...at least those who choose to participate. Again, please give your recommendations. And if there is an easier way I would certainly like to hear it...Thanks!

Chick & Steve - very similar to what you already suggested...
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« Reply #138 on: January 31, 2012, 11:39:04 AM »

   Marty, great research here.  I have 4 bolts that are the bolts that attach the Fan to the Water Pump on a '67 standard LF7.  The head is similar to #25 except it has 6 hash marks, they are also same as NoYenko's post (bottom pic) except these are smaller size.  In the 67 AIM they are bolt #9425390, they are 5/16"-24 X 2 3/4" long

Thanks Mike!

Chick - Thanks for the door hinge screw pics!
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« Reply #139 on: January 31, 2012, 02:16:32 PM »

In a perfect world there would be old GM documents still around indicating fastener suppliers each year at each assembly plant.  I think the first step is to ID the manufacturer head marking along with details of car it was on (model year, plant, Fisher build week, survivor or partial restore or fully restored, p/n, size and finish and notes like captured washers, how many required versus how many found on the car, etc).  Not to say this is always the case, but I think there may be some newer fasteners/manufacturers that have been used on so many restorations that they are now assumed to be born-with correct.  And even on a survivor a bolt could have been replaced along the years.  Another obstacle is where do we find a definitive listing of fastener suppliers and all their head markings, especially from the late 1960s?  Once that's done you could look at the identified manufacturer and see if they pass the logic test (existed in 1967-69, used that logo in that period, were they a GM supplier at that period, where their plants were located, etc).  Would require contacting the manufacturers, and there will be gray areas such as suppliers no longer in business, suppliers that were acquired by another company since then, non responsive suppliers, or lack of old info, etc).  This will weed out some manufacturers.  Then add in the knowledge of 1960s GM suppliers from our experts who were there.  You'll still have variances due to the "bin of mixed vendor bolts" they had on the assembly lines, but I think patterns will emerge as far as specific manufacturers used and their proximity to the assembly plants.  For example, it seems like the ones we can already confirm were located in Ohio, Michigan, probably Illinois and maybe California.  Unless it's a special fastener I doubt you will confirm use of a fastener made in Maine or Texas, probably not even Canada from that period, and I suspect we may be down to fewer manufacturer's than the number of logos we currently have.     
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« Reply #140 on: January 31, 2012, 04:08:35 PM »

John - I hope you don't mind me asking; Does GM have any docs that you are aware of that indicates which vendors contracted/supplied fasteners during the First Gen run? If the answer is yes, can you please give us some assistance in acquiring this information? Smiley 

Russ - It is clear you have studdied this in great detail. Thanks for the insight with regards to the many obstacles we'll be faced with. It is far better to familiarize ourselves with each one now than after the fact. I am certain there will be others (obstacles) and now is the time to explore each one.

I certainly hope John can lend a hand. A Vendor list from GM would certainly be a step in the right direction.

Thanks again...
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« Reply #141 on: January 31, 2012, 04:17:33 PM »

Fastener HeadMark update...(green asterisks indicates confirmed factory HeadMarks. Red asterisks indicate nonfactory fasteners). If there are any discrepancies please let us know...

If you have a match for fasteners not yet confirmed or new headmarks please post pics or send them to my email address; vsotero78@yahoo.com.

Thanks again...
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« Reply #142 on: January 31, 2012, 04:18:21 PM »

Update cont'd...
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« Reply #143 on: January 31, 2012, 04:18:53 PM »

Update cont'd...
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« Reply #144 on: January 31, 2012, 04:27:51 PM »

John - I hope you don't mind me asking; Does GM have any docs that you are aware of that indicates which vendors contracted/supplied fasteners during the First Gen run? If the answer is yes, can you please give us some assistance in acquiring this information? Smiley 

I'm not aware of anyone (or any group) at GM that would still have that information; that was primarily Purchasing info, and anyone who was there 45 years ago has long-since retired. Between that and the 20-some GM reorganizations since 1985, that kind of information has been lost to history.
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« Reply #145 on: January 31, 2012, 08:16:13 PM »

Marty,
  Do you want me to re-post when you get a new format started?  My car is a 11 A (66) LOS build coupe, I think that was the only info. I didn't inlude.
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« Reply #146 on: January 31, 2012, 10:29:56 PM »

Mike - absolutely! I'm hoping that everyone who has contributed to this thread will do the same for the next phase of this study. Give us some time to ponder our options/format for the next thread. I think Russ has expressed some great ideas and I look forward to hearing more. If you have some ideas of your own, please don't hesitate to fill us in.

Please remember...the information collected for this new format will not be included in this thread. We will begin a whole new topic/thread for this purpose. I hope that makes sense...

Thanks again!
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« Reply #147 on: February 01, 2012, 02:10:01 PM »

Discussion for the new thread (IF IT HAPPENS) moved here...http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9130.0
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« Reply #148 on: February 01, 2012, 02:26:12 PM »

John - I hope you don't mind me asking; Does GM have any docs that you are aware of that indicates which vendors contracted/supplied fasteners during the First Gen run? If the answer is yes, can you please give us some assistance in acquiring this information? Smiley 

I'm not aware of anyone (or any group) at GM that would still have that information; that was primarily Purchasing info, and anyone who was there 45 years ago has long-since retired. Between that and the 20-some GM reorganizations since 1985, that kind of information has been lost to history.

I was afraid of that...Thanks anyway!
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« Reply #149 on: February 01, 2012, 04:29:06 PM »

John & Kurt - here is a list of headmarks that were mentioned earlier in this tread. With the help of several members we have managed to confirm a few which are highlighted in green; TR, UR, RBW, RSC, E, EL, F, AD, D, WB, L, LS, LE, C, M, Anchor & stylized F. Are there any others in the charts you can add to the green list? And, are there any you recognize that should not be green or listed as confirmed?

Thanks!
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« Reply #150 on: February 01, 2012, 09:13:14 PM »

Marty, you have added some great suggestions along with some others so that is good! We might want to keep this as simple as possible or members may choose not to paticipate. Example: Instead of the picture with a tape measure etc., you could use one of your examples with the red measurement lines to show/communicate how a screw/bolt should be reported. Pete brings up some excellent points. I will assist anyway I can.
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« Reply #151 on: February 01, 2012, 09:58:11 PM »

These are our original sub-frame bolt examples from our 68 01B NOR Camaro.
Left hand bolt #3912533 used in #2 & #3 sub-frame mounts. Page50 1968 AIM.
Right hand bolt #3914816 used in #1 sub-frame to rad. support mount. Page50 1968 AIM.

Top bolt- # 3912533 Bottom bolt- #3914816
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« Reply #152 on: February 01, 2012, 10:01:52 PM »

Chick - Excellent pics thanks! I was needing to see those!

I posted a response to reply 150 here; http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9130.new#new
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« Reply #153 on: February 02, 2012, 03:19:38 PM »

FWIW, a number of years ago (probably 10 or so) Camaro Corral published an issue that covered bolts and suppliers. I thought I still had the issue but it must have been unintentionally discarded. I believe it had illustrations along with supplier names. Jim
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« Reply #154 on: February 02, 2012, 03:23:07 PM »

Wow...if anyone knows about this book please fill us in or post a link of where it can be found.

Thanks Jim!!!
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« Reply #155 on: February 02, 2012, 04:21:31 PM »

Marty, Today's your lucky day. I have that issue of the Camaro Enthusiast (April 98). Give me a couple of days and I will get the pages scanned and send them to you.

Rick
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« Reply #156 on: February 02, 2012, 04:29:04 PM »

Rick - You DA Man! That should make life much easier!!  Smiley

Marty
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« Reply #157 on: February 02, 2012, 04:29:30 PM »

Wow...if anyone knows about this book please fill us in or post a link of where it can be found.

Thanks Jim!!!
Marty....It was not a book but was the official monthly publication of the now defunct United States Camaro Club.  The magazine was Entitled "Camaro Enthusiast" and the article appeared in the April 1998 issue.  It was a start at documenting the bolts used in the manufacture of the Camaro.  It listed several of the bolts used, a list of the manufactures and their brands, and other bolt information.  It also included a blank form for the members to fill in with their bolt information.  As to what happened to the information after they closed shop, who knows.  I do know that Ecklers Industries now owns the club and it is now known as "The Worldwide Camaro Club".  Might contact them about what happened to the documents associated with the article. The information may be copyrighted, so contacting them about the info might be advisable.

Well...never mind.....see that someone beat me to it.
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« Reply #158 on: February 02, 2012, 05:21:37 PM »

Jerry - I really appreciate this information. We'll just have to wait and see how this thing plays out. In the mean time (if its alright with Kurt) I think we'll move forward with our own research. If you guys can lend a hand over at that other thread...please do. http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9130.0

Many Thanks!!!
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« Reply #159 on: February 02, 2012, 06:02:56 PM »

Hello Everyone,

Great discussion and input.  As I mentioned earlier, several years ago, I replaced most of my original, and/or the generic hardware my car accumulated over the years from its previous owners, from bumper to bumper that was rusty or pitted beyond "show quality" condition.  I probably spent between $1000 - $1500 at AMK, Paragon, and Larry Christensen to assembly the hardware I needed.  When I get time, I'll pull my AIM and my AMK catalog that contain my notes which list all the places in the AIM where a common used hardware is found as I has done earlier in this discuss thread.

Again, it's most important when we post pictures of hardware that is from original and/or survivor cars, that we also share where the hardware is used, the car's build date and build plant.  The bolt/nut thread spec's are also is good info, but it is very helpfull if you have an AIM, to state the page number, detail number, and the GM part number assigned to the hardware. Once we know this info, we can can cross reference the hardware part number with that in the AMK's catalog number and determine the spec on the hardware: i.e. thread size, length, etc.

If we keep this up, eventually we can provide an extremely helpful hardware restoration guide for virtually all the primary components on our cars.  As I was restoring my hardware, I thought about making a hardware guide with a 3-ring binder with the page from the GM AIM on one page, and a pictorial references on the opposite page of original hardware, with cross references to the hardware in the AMK catalog.  If this guide where to be made for sale, licensing from GM to use the AIM would be required, but this guide would save countless hours restoring a 1st Gen, particularly if you buy one missing the drive train, had an original component replaced and generic hardware was used, etc.

Your thoughts?   
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« Reply #160 on: February 02, 2012, 07:12:01 PM »

I agree Dave with what you submitted before and now 100% but hopefully more members will assist and get involved. And maybe we need to have a thread on Team Camaro also as they do have a lot of very active members and not everyone works both forums.
No doubt this is a very worthwhile project that could benefit the hobby immensely.
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« Reply #161 on: February 02, 2012, 08:22:06 PM »

Marty I am really impressed with the progress & the information gathered here in just 15 days. I like the going forward format you put together and the reference to AMK fasteners catalog. Good input from everybody. I want to thank Chick & others on the Palmetto tip. I cooked up some nuts & bolts in a $14 crock pot and the finish came out better than I thought. Quite easy also. I will continue to help with any other fasteners I come across.
George
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« Reply #162 on: February 02, 2012, 11:04:31 PM »

George – I can’t say enough good things about the way this topic has progressed. It’s because guys like you and others have taken the initiative to tackle a very difficult topic and not get discourage by the enormity of the challenge. That’s all it takes to keep people motivated and as long as that support is there, I too am willing to do whatever it takes to see this thing to the end.

PKIM…this thread is all about researching factory correct fasteners that these cars were born with. I think we still have a ways to go but we’ve certainly put a sizable dent in this first phase. We have also taken the next step which is to log all of the information associated with fasteners in each of the AIM’s. I will be offering ideas on how I would like to see it progress. And by no means is it set in stone. What works for me might not work for the next guy but I think in the end, the results will be the same.

So far I will be heading the ’69 data collection, Chick will be taking the 68’s, and Mike will be overseeing the 67’s. The preliminary study can be monitored over at; Factory Fastener Discussion. If anyone has comments or suggestions now is the time to discuss it here;  http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9130.0

Thanks!
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« Reply #163 on: February 03, 2012, 08:58:41 PM »

Update...Green asterisks = confirmed headmarks.
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« Reply #164 on: February 03, 2012, 08:59:46 PM »

Update cont'd...
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« Reply #165 on: February 08, 2012, 10:07:58 PM »

Reply 163-reference head marking Marty has labeled #15.
Question or remark on screw #3846202 screw/bolt with supplier #15.
I checked numerous original #3846202 and could not find that #15 configuration.
Then I found a bag of new #3846202 screws that have that head marking.
Note the 15 on the picture (bag) below is what they cost, $15...
Just a concern #15 supplier type might not be be correct.
Can anyone confirm they have an original #3846202 wtih #15 head markings?
 

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« Reply #166 on: February 09, 2012, 12:21:04 PM »

Chick - Thanks for this post. I've been searching for someone else who has the "LF" fastener. I am trying to find out when this particular fastener was used/introduced which also brings up another important question; I think most of us know the "Pinch-Point" & "Dog-Point" fasteners were introduced for use early into the First Gen. run. The question I had was; "When was the "Roll-Point" Machine -Thread bolt developed for use. I found this thread over at TC that I hope John doesn't mind me posting. John actually developed the "Roll-Point" fastener in conjunction with Anchor for use beginning with the '68 run. Maybe this can shed some light on wether or not the "LF" screw is a legit factory fastener.

6Th post...3rd paragraph; http://www.camaros.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-97516.html
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« Reply #167 on: February 09, 2012, 06:31:55 PM »

Chick - Thanks for this post. I've been searching for someone else who has the "LF" fastener. I am trying to find out when this particular fastener was used/introduced which also brings up another important question; I think most of us know the "Pinch-Point" & "Dog-Point" fasteners were introduced for use early into the First Gen. run. The question I had was; "When was the "Roll-Point" Machine -Thread bolt developed for use. I found this thread over at TC that I hope John doesn't mind me posting. John actually developed the "Roll-Point" fastener in conjunction with Anchor for use beginning with the '68 run. Maybe this can shed some light on wether or not the "LF" screw is a legit factory fastener.

6Th post...3rd paragraph; http://www.camaros.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-97516.html
Saw that "roll point" but until now did not know what it was called or have seen one in first gen camaro. Thanks Marty for the thread and later in that thread JohnZ mentioned "Production applications started with late '69 "B"-bodies built at Flint Assembly and spread from there in '70-'71 to other plants and other car lines."
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« Reply #168 on: February 11, 2012, 08:26:38 PM »

I took out 2 bolts that were gold cad. and I can't remember where they go. Flange head 5/16" X 1". I do know they came from the bottom of the car.
They are unusual in that they have a square point to them and that they are the only gold bolts I remember taking off. Maybe someone else remembers seeing these.
Thanks 
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« Reply #169 on: February 12, 2012, 08:10:07 PM »

I too am interested to know if anyone has come across a similar fastener...distinct and unusual finish .

Can someone fill us in on the numbered head-marking? I have seen several. What does the number mean? Is it just one company who made these or were there several?
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« Reply #170 on: February 13, 2012, 12:43:38 PM »

I too am interested to know if anyone has come across a similar fastener...distinct and unusual finish .

Can someone fill us in on the numbered head-marking? I have seen several. What does the number mean? Is it just one company who made these or were there several?

There were at least three suppliers for every fastener part number; I've never seen that headmark before, and have never seen a gold cad finish on an original fastener.
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« Reply #171 on: February 13, 2012, 07:41:38 PM »

John thanks for the input, this head mark "23" is the similar to my door hinge bolts and shown on other cars also. I took an inventory of the bolts I took off the bottom of the car and I am missing 2 bolts that hold the rear upper shock mount. I guess these 2 gold bolts were replacements at some point.
However I do have another dilemma. The bolts I took off for the fuel & brake line clips are not all the same bolt. 1969 AIM shows #3958062 used in both locations but I have some normal hex and flange head bolts, see picture. Since my car is a Nov. 68 car I wonder if someone with an early car could check their bolts or if you have a 1968 AIM see if they list the same bolt number for fuel & brake lines. Bolts with hex head were used on the fuel clips & can be seen by scar marks on the clips.
Thanks for the help. George
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« Reply #172 on: February 13, 2012, 09:25:29 PM »

George...the bolts you show for the brake and fuel line clips are the same size and shape  as the ones on my  07C 1968 Z28 (although the ones I have have several different bolt head markings) .  The number you cited above is not the same number as the one in the 1968 AIM.  I have both year model AIM's and I checked them for the numbers at each corresponding location and the part numbers are different.  The part number for the 1968 is 9420825.
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« Reply #173 on: February 14, 2012, 08:12:35 AM »

Jerry, Thanks for your reply. This forum & members are great. The hex bolts #9420825 I have are marked "L", "E", and blank. They were also used on my brake bias valve.
There was propably a part number change on an early 69 AIM revision sheet that doesn't show on my copy.
George
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« Reply #174 on: February 14, 2012, 10:25:58 AM »

George - here is that same bolt on mine (12A LA) "ER" headmark; 1/2" x 9/16" & 5/8" flange.
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« Reply #175 on: February 14, 2012, 10:52:04 AM »

There were at least three suppliers for every fastener part number; I've never seen that headmark before, and have never seen a gold cad finish on an original fastener.

John - Here are a few more examples of numbered headmarks members have posted in this discussion..."36", "A-96", "O-98", "23" & "L8-86". Do you recall seeing any of these?

Thanks!
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« Reply #176 on: February 14, 2012, 11:23:55 AM »

There were at least three suppliers for every fastener part number; I've never seen that headmark before, and have never seen a gold cad finish on an original fastener.

John - Here are a few more examples of numbered headmarks members have posted in this discussion..."36", "A-96", "O-98", "23" & "L8-86". Do you recall seeing any of these?

Thanks!

Not offhand, but that doesn't mean they aren't original; I haven't inspected many LA cars, and they're likely to have some unique fastener headmarks (sourced on the west coast).
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« Reply #177 on: February 14, 2012, 03:00:41 PM »

John - your candor & tact never ceases to amaze. Thank you sir!!!

Guys, we need more examples from Van Nuys and Norwood. Please...there are no right or wrong answers. Just looking for examples & numbers... Wink

Here is the latest update. PLEASE...if you notice any headmarks not consistant with what would have been used from the FACTORY please let us know. Again...green asterisks means factory and red means BS... Wink
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« Reply #178 on: February 14, 2012, 03:01:42 PM »

...
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« Reply #179 on: February 14, 2012, 03:03:51 PM »

...
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« Reply #180 on: February 14, 2012, 09:29:14 PM »

Head marking #71 is a good one! As noted George and I both have it in our door hinges and I have noted that head marking on several other Camaro's but interesting enough I have only noticed it used for door hinges.
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« Reply #181 on: February 15, 2012, 09:37:28 AM »

I'll change #71 to green "*" on my copy.

Just as a note; my 12A LA has all SEMS & RBW on the door hinges.

Thanks Chick!
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« Reply #182 on: February 16, 2012, 09:26:17 AM »

If anyone has phillip head screws that you think or know are original to your car please post pics. And, since these small fasteners are difficult to photograph, please list any headmarks or grade-marks they have. Example; "E", "S", etc. The location of where these fasteners came from would also be helpful.

If you have trouble posting pics simply list what you have. This alone would be a big help! Trust me...I know what a PITA it is to post pics! Wink

Example below; I pulled these from the windshield squirters...how's that for a technical term  Huh

Thanks!
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« Reply #183 on: February 17, 2012, 01:09:32 AM »

Marty,

I bought a new camera which is slightly better than the old one, and I'm enclosing a photo of the original fastener from my car (WW tube hold down)..  PN 447143..  note that this is not a phillips screw, but instead is a hex fastener...
Gary
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« Reply #184 on: February 17, 2012, 01:11:49 AM »

I also retook a photo of the fastener PN 9421479, UPC1 sheet A3...  attached...
Gary
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« Reply #185 on: February 17, 2012, 08:37:16 AM »

Nice improvement on pics Gary! Looks like the first pic is a plain hex GR-2 (no grade lines or headmark). What about the second one... maybe a GR-5? I can't quite make out the headmark.

And what kind of fastener do you have for the glove box striker? Is it a phillip's head like mine or is it also a hex screw?
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« Reply #186 on: February 17, 2012, 02:15:06 PM »

The head marking appeared to be 2 concentric circles with some kind of 'delta' symbol inside it..?  but my vision these days is about as bad as my cameras.. Smiley

I will check on the glove compartment screws tonight and let you know...  I am thinking that is a phillips, but am unsure til I check...
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« Reply #187 on: February 17, 2012, 06:04:38 PM »

Gary - Looks like you found a new headmark. Unfortunately there are only two call-outs for that one fastener and their both on UPC 1/A3 like you've mentioned. Please take a look at the other one in the opposite side of the vent grille and see if you can make out the headmark on it. Sure would like to add that one to the mix.

BTW...ditto on the old man vision syndrome.
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« Reply #188 on: February 18, 2012, 09:19:02 AM »

Gary - I believe both you and Dave have the same exact fastener (PN 9421479); "A". Take a look at reply #76. His is from the same exact location and from another Norwood built survivor. The only other possibility would be #11 which is a bit of a stretch but I threw it in for comparison. Your thoughts?
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« Reply #189 on: February 18, 2012, 01:31:51 PM »

Marty,

I examined some of the screws and fasteners this morning that you requested.
1)  The cowl vent screws (4 of them) are all identical (1/4" head, with 5/8" captive washer, w/ head marking the same as the prev photo showed - 2 concentric circles with 'delta' symbol inside.  Screw threads are 1/2" long.   Yes, it appears Dave's fasteners are the same as mine.
2)  The screws - also in the cowl vent panel - which retain the squirter hard lines, are also identical.  1/4 hex with a small shoulder, 1/4" long threads..   both are identical on my car and do not have any head marking).
3)  I removed one of the retainer screws from the glove compartment box.   It is 1/2" long, rounded head phillips , with an apparent dark phosphate coloring.  (photos attached).

Gary / 69Z28-RS
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« Reply #190 on: February 18, 2012, 01:38:23 PM »

You asked about 'other' Phillips screws, so I took a quick look while checking out the glovebox screws, and found these:
1)  End of dash pad - rounded head, dark phosphate phillips - no apparent washer, but I didn't remove the screw...  (see photo)

2) End of dash - rounded headed dark phosphate phillips with washer - I didn't remove it so don't know if it is captive washer or not ..(see photo)

3)  A-pillar trim - light colored flat head phillips (again, I didn't remove the screw).. see photo.

Gary / 69Z28-RS
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
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« Reply #191 on: February 18, 2012, 03:07:17 PM »

That A pillar don't look right. Are you sure that's A pillar and not the kick panel screw that's in the door jamb?
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Daniel  
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« Reply #192 on: February 19, 2012, 11:30:58 AM »

Gary - thanks for posting the phillip head screws. You have some real gems. Its interesting to see how they've changed over the years.

BTW- I managed to find two fasteners with the same 'delta' symbol. But, if you take a magnifying glass you can make out the "legs" of the "A"...your thoughts? The ones in the pic were taken from UPC 9/A5, PN 9429629.
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NoYenko
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« Reply #193 on: February 19, 2012, 12:25:12 PM »

Marty, I am not sure if I've seen this bolt shown so I thought I'd post it. Rear brake backing plate to diff. 3/8" x 24 - 1" dark phosphate. Note the nut is taller than normal, zinc plated, and used a lock washer.
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« Reply #194 on: February 19, 2012, 07:07:46 PM »

Daniel,

Yes, that was a 'kick panel' fastener, NOT the A pillar ....  OOOPS!   Smiley

Marty:  Yes, it could be an A...   appears the same as yours, and yours is clearly an 'A'  ..  I couldn't see it that well on my fasteners.. but obviously the same head marking..

Gary
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
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« Reply #195 on: February 19, 2012, 11:17:36 PM »

Picture of differential T bolt marking. Nor 11A
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« Reply #196 on: February 20, 2012, 10:46:35 AM »

George - great pics of diff bolts but you lost me. Not too up on Rear-Ends...at least not this kind. Shocked

You show two different style bolts. One you show as a Backing Plate to Diff Bolt and the other as a Diff T-Bolt. Am I correct in saying the Tee Bolts are for
securing the Backing-plates to the housing or spindle flange? And what about the nut and bolt? Sorry too lazy to pull the tire and hub to find out for myself. Wink

Pictures help dummies like me so please include something as reference. Keep it clean... Grin
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tmodel66
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« Reply #197 on: February 20, 2012, 11:29:25 AM »

Marty the nut and bolt that he posted are for the backing plate to axle flange. These T-bolts hold the rear shock plates on. There are 2 used in conjunction with 2 U-bolts for multi leaf application. The T-bolt goes inboard and the U-bolts go outboard next to the backing plate. There are 4 of these used for the mono leaf springs.
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Daniel  
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« Reply #198 on: February 20, 2012, 02:33:31 PM »

Marty, Here is a picture to show where they go. George
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« Reply #199 on: February 20, 2012, 04:09:48 PM »

Exactly what I needed...Thanks guys!

And George - I'll include both of these in the next update. Thanks again!
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« Reply #200 on: February 25, 2012, 04:04:12 PM »

Marty, restoring my axles & wheel studs & thought I would post this picture. One axle had five studs with triangle stamping the other had "F" stamping on the studs.
Studs are all same length, "F" studs have slight taper at the start of the thread for maybe 1/16". All were black phosphate finish before glass beading.
Both axles seem original but I don't know for sure. Maybe others can post what they have seen. George.
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« Reply #201 on: February 25, 2012, 07:15:23 PM »

George - I think its safe to assume this thread began about the same time you started restoring your car. I also think its safe to assume I'm not the only one that feels fortunate you are sharing this information. Kudos my friend and please keep the pics and fastener info coming! I'll add all of them to an updated version soon.
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« Reply #202 on: February 27, 2012, 12:10:58 PM »

Fastener headmark update...
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« Reply #203 on: February 27, 2012, 12:11:30 PM »

...
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« Reply #204 on: February 27, 2012, 12:12:01 PM »

...
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68camaroz28
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« Reply #205 on: February 27, 2012, 09:49:44 PM »

Marty, just a thought, that's all. We all know there are a lot of head markings but it might make life easier if we note headmarkings on specialized screws/bolts. Good examples are what George just reported on, i.e. "wheel studs" etc.. I remember the triangle on the end of some of our studs but will have to check them out. Some head markings will be spread among several types/sizes of screws/bolts but some of these special ones are just that, special.
Thoughts?   Grin
 
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Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
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R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
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« Reply #206 on: February 27, 2012, 09:52:06 PM »

Marty, just a thought, that's all. We all know there are a lot of head markings but it might make life easier if we note headmarkings on specialized screws/bolts. Good examples are what George just reported on, i.e. "wheel studs" etc.. I remember the triangle on the end of some of our studs but will have to check them out. Some head markings will be spread among several types/sizes of screws/bolts but some of these special ones are just that, special.
Thoughts?   Grin
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Chick
68 Z/28 NOR 01B Orig motor/trans/rear
69 Z/28 NOR 07A Orig Block & GM Cross-ram/carbs
69 L34 Rest. Nova Father/Son Car
69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
68 Corv 427/400 Orig motor
07 Corv Z06
R 68Z build- http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584
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« Reply #207 on: February 27, 2012, 10:14:05 PM »

Works for me! Sure will make life easier.  Wink
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DavidS
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« Reply #208 on: December 20, 2012, 01:21:02 PM »



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