CRG Discussion Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 23, 2014, 11:29:35 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Welcome to the CRG Discussion Forum!
Forum registration problems: Make sure you enter your email correctly and you check your spam box first. *Then* email KurtS2@gmail for help.
104714 Posts in 12247 Topics by 4719 Members
Latest Member: Baconcks
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  CRG Discussion Forum
|-+  Camaro Research Group Discussion
| |-+  Originality
| | |-+  Shifters
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [All] Print
Author Topic: Shifters  (Read 2164 times)
sixt9x33rs
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 840



View Profile
« on: January 02, 2012, 07:42:46 PM »

Has anyone heard of a 69 Hurst Comp Plus for a Muncie and a different version for a Saginaw/ I thought they were both the same?
Logged

'69 RS Z/28 Olympic Gold, 711
Flat hood no spoiler, black top, endura, 4:10
POP 39,000
69 X77 Z/28 69 711 Original Paint Unrestored
'69 X66 Convertible Cortez Silver 712 black top Endura, auto, bumper guards, am/fm rear speaker 44k miles
Ed Bertrand
CRG Member
*****
Posts: 2333


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2012, 08:03:25 PM »

Shifter body is the same. Linkage is different.

Ed
Logged
69pace
Member
***
Posts: 373



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 11:51:03 PM »

Since the Competition Plus line of shifters was only aftermarket over the counter there were generic and specific mounts, rods, and linkage per application and year. 
Logged

1969 Z-11 350/300 with 4 Speed
sixt9x33rs
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 840



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2012, 07:55:42 PM »

Since the Competition Plus line of shifters was only aftermarket over the counter there were generic and specific mounts, rods, and linkage per application and year. 
They were not just over the counter. Z/28 and all 69 four speeds had them.
Logged

'69 RS Z/28 Olympic Gold, 711
Flat hood no spoiler, black top, endura, 4:10
POP 39,000
69 X77 Z/28 69 711 Original Paint Unrestored
'69 X66 Convertible Cortez Silver 712 black top Endura, auto, bumper guards, am/fm rear speaker 44k miles
69pace
Member
***
Posts: 373



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2012, 10:27:50 PM »

Since the Competition Plus line of shifters was only aftermarket over the counter there were generic and specific mounts, rods, and linkage per application and year.  
They were not just over the counter. Z/28 and all 69 four speeds had them.
No Actually the Competition Plus is a retail line. Hurst made custom shifters to OEM specs for Factory installation only, for GM, and others in the late 60's early 70's that are not Comp Plus line shifters. These special shifters were available as service replacement from GM parts counters but not sold as retail units. The competition plus line was sold retail and marketed for the same vehicles that they manufactured special factory OEM units for. So in effect you could order a sag trans and get a muncie shifter from the factory, but buy a Comp Plus shifter down the corner at ACME and have a much better shifter.

While they may all "look" the same they are not. The Comp plus line had adjustment bolts front and back and other features such as push down to reverse lock out.  Factory OEM Hurst shifters do not. The linkage, rods, sticks and mounting plates are not interchangeable between the two lines for the most part. While you may get a rod or two or a lever or two to work, the factory stuff works best with factory OEM Hurst shifters, and aftermarket over the counter works best on them. Mixing an matching the parts causes misery - been there done that.  I spent hours researching archives.  There should be a few decent links here and at TC documenting the difference.

Logged

1969 Z-11 350/300 with 4 Speed
sixt9x33rs
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 840



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2012, 08:00:38 AM »

I am going through the misery now.
Logged

'69 RS Z/28 Olympic Gold, 711
Flat hood no spoiler, black top, endura, 4:10
POP 39,000
69 X77 Z/28 69 711 Original Paint Unrestored
'69 X66 Convertible Cortez Silver 712 black top Endura, auto, bumper guards, am/fm rear speaker 44k miles
69pace
Member
***
Posts: 373



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2012, 08:20:37 AM »

I am going through the misery now.
Yeah I noticed your other thread. I was looking to see if I kept any of the Chevelle info I had. If I find it I'll pm it over to you.

Hurst made custom shifters for many GM lines including the Chevrolet models Camaro, Chevelle, but also for Olds, and Pontiac over the years. I would say if you are trying to use a Hurst OEM shifter that was made for a Chevelle on a Saginaw in a Camaro you are going to need some custom made rods and linkage.

You can try rods and levers from a Competition Plus retail shifter for a Saginaw trans but change out the bushings for steel ones - Hurst Speed Pac or also known as the Pit Pac bushings.  You will most likely need to use the U clamp tail mounting method if the Hurst won't bolt to the standard Muncie shifter plate on the Saginaw. If your head isn't spinning yet you might also just want to scrap it all and buy a new comp plus retail with linkage for a Sag and call it done. At least that has a 99.9% chance of working the first time, and shifting every time. Dropped shifts and constant re-setting are signs that the shifter and linkage are mis-matched. Nothing like being in traffic stuck in neutral (better then fourth).  
Logged

1969 Z-11 350/300 with 4 Speed
JoeC
Member
***
Posts: 348


View Profile Email
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2012, 01:06:24 PM »

the OEM 69 Camaro Hurst is a competion plus - it is stamped on the shifter

The aftermarket Hurst also has competion plus stamped on it but they are differnt shifters with no major parts the same

Hurst does not make an install kit for 69 Camaro with sag
they told you to use the Hurst aftermarket shifter with the factory rods and mount plate

The original Sag rods and levers are hard to find.

You can use the Sag install kit for 67-68 Camaro but needs modifications to make it work


Logged
sixt9x33rs
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 840



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2012, 08:08:15 PM »

I am going through the misery now.
Yeah I noticed your other thread. I was looking to see if I kept any of the Chevelle info I had. If I find it I'll pm it over to you.

Hurst made custom shifters for many GM lines including the Chevrolet models Camaro, Chevelle, but also for Olds, and Pontiac over the years. I would say if you are trying to use a Hurst OEM shifter that was made for a Chevelle on a Saginaw in a Camaro you are going to need some custom made rods and linkage.

You can try rods and levers from a Competition Plus retail shifter for a Saginaw trans but change out the bushings for steel ones - Hurst Speed Pac or also known as the Pit Pac bushings.  You will most likely need to use the U clamp tail mounting method if the Hurst won't bolt to the standard Muncie shifter plate on the Saginaw. If your head isn't spinning yet you might also just want to scrap it all and buy a new comp plus retail with linkage for a Sag and call it done. At least that has a 99.9% chance of working the first time, and shifting every time. Dropped shifts and constant re-setting are signs that the shifter and linkage are mis-matched. Nothing like being in traffic stuck in neutral (better then fourth). 

Actually I have an OEM Camaro shifter with Chevelle rods and a retail style comp plus plate. I have found a set of Camaro Saginaw rods which I have ordered and plan on using. I also have a OEM style plate so at the end of the day I SHOULD have all three OEM pieces.

I may have missed something?
Logged

'69 RS Z/28 Olympic Gold, 711
Flat hood no spoiler, black top, endura, 4:10
POP 39,000
69 X77 Z/28 69 711 Original Paint Unrestored
'69 X66 Convertible Cortez Silver 712 black top Endura, auto, bumper guards, am/fm rear speaker 44k miles
sixt9x33rs
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 840



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2012, 08:47:09 PM »

This is the shifter I am using.

Logged

'69 RS Z/28 Olympic Gold, 711
Flat hood no spoiler, black top, endura, 4:10
POP 39,000
69 X77 Z/28 69 711 Original Paint Unrestored
'69 X66 Convertible Cortez Silver 712 black top Endura, auto, bumper guards, am/fm rear speaker 44k miles
Stingr69
Member
***
Posts: 404


View Profile Email
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2012, 06:25:48 AM »

That is the OEM GM version of the '69 Camaro Hurst shifter. If you were able to find original (repro) GM shift rods, bracket and levers to go with it you would be doing pretty good BUT you still are not completely out of the woods. The bolt pattern on the tail housing of the tranny will need to match the mounting bracket AND the pattern needs to be IN THE SAME PLACE as it was for 69. I do not know much about Saginaw tailhousings so I can't comment there but a Muncie tail housing from '69 has a different bolt pattern LOCATION as compared to a Muncie tailhousing from the early 70's. It looks like it would be in the same PLACE (with only 3 bolts vs 5), but it isn't. 

Keep your fingers crossed.

-Mark.
Logged
sixt9x33rs
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 840



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2012, 07:16:19 AM »

I found a set of Saginaw shifter rods but don't have them yet. Right now in the car is the set of Chevelle rods and and aftermarket shifter plate with the loop that goes around the tai shaft. It shifts ok in the car but the stick touches the console in 3rd. This is while the car is not running who knows what will happen when the car is under load running, but it really doesn't matter because I will get all the right pieces. In addition to the shifter plate that is in the car I have two other plates. I hope out of the three one is right! Huh

Thanks for all the help with this.
Logged

'69 RS Z/28 Olympic Gold, 711
Flat hood no spoiler, black top, endura, 4:10
POP 39,000
69 X77 Z/28 69 711 Original Paint Unrestored
'69 X66 Convertible Cortez Silver 712 black top Endura, auto, bumper guards, am/fm rear speaker 44k miles
JoeC
Member
***
Posts: 348


View Profile Email
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2012, 11:35:56 AM »

that is a OEM Hurst comp plus so you are OK there

The big mount plate that used the 2 trans mount bolts and the u bolt on the tail was used for 67-68 Camaro Muncie and Sag and does not use the tapped holes on the side of the trans.

I have seen the 67-68 Sag install kit used on the 69 but needs some mods and can't use the 69 steering wheel lock out rod
also have to use the 67-68 rev lights switch set up.

The best way to go is to use the 69 OEM Sag install kit but they are hard to find.
I have a picture of the 69 Sag reverse lever if you need one.
It is a large odd looking lever
Logged
sixt9x33rs
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 840



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2012, 07:18:53 PM »

Hi Joe

Please send a picture of the reverse lever.

I hope to have the right rods next week. Can you shoot me a picture of the right shifter plate?

Thanks

Lawrence

Logged

'69 RS Z/28 Olympic Gold, 711
Flat hood no spoiler, black top, endura, 4:10
POP 39,000
69 X77 Z/28 69 711 Original Paint Unrestored
'69 X66 Convertible Cortez Silver 712 black top Endura, auto, bumper guards, am/fm rear speaker 44k miles
sixt9x33rs
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 840



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2012, 07:59:03 AM »

I am driving the car now and what a huge improvement. The car shifts silky smooth with no binding or sticking of the shifter rods, but you can tell the shifter is not sitting in the console correctly. I should have the Saginaw rods next week and I just need to figure out what plate to use. Then on to the reverse lock out rod.

Logged

'69 RS Z/28 Olympic Gold, 711
Flat hood no spoiler, black top, endura, 4:10
POP 39,000
69 X77 Z/28 69 711 Original Paint Unrestored
'69 X66 Convertible Cortez Silver 712 black top Endura, auto, bumper guards, am/fm rear speaker 44k miles
JoeC
Member
***
Posts: 348


View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2012, 10:38:47 AM »

here are pictures of the 69 SB mount plate and the Sag Rev trans lever

The 69 SB mount plate is not too hard to find on ebay
Logged
sixt9x33rs
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 840



View Profile
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2012, 10:24:01 PM »

I have that shifter plate. I had that installed on the car with the current "Chevelle" rods and the shifter would not shift correctly. So I put the current plate on. The one with the c clamp that goes around the tailshaft. Would the wrong rods cause the shifter to hit the tunnel? When I get the correct Saginaw rods and use the above plate the shifter should fit correctly and shift correctly?
Logged

'69 RS Z/28 Olympic Gold, 711
Flat hood no spoiler, black top, endura, 4:10
POP 39,000
69 X77 Z/28 69 711 Original Paint Unrestored
'69 X66 Convertible Cortez Silver 712 black top Endura, auto, bumper guards, am/fm rear speaker 44k miles
sixt9x33rs
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 840



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2012, 05:56:01 PM »

I am still not 100% with my shifter set up. Recently I have been running the Chevelle shifter rods and after market shifter plate with a OEM shifter. It has actually been shifting fine. I have purchased correct Camaro Saginaw shifter rods and I had a OEM shifter plate. When I bolt the shifter to the shifter plate the shifter will not shift into 2 or 4 because the shifter hits the tranny tunnel. When I use the aftermarket shifter plate I don't get the shifter hitting the tranny tunnel. I feel like I have a shifter plate that may not be right. However, it bolts to the holes on the Saginaw and seems like I have it right? Are there more than one bolt pattern shifter plates for a small block 69 Camaro?

Thanks for any comments
Logged

'69 RS Z/28 Olympic Gold, 711
Flat hood no spoiler, black top, endura, 4:10
POP 39,000
69 X77 Z/28 69 711 Original Paint Unrestored
'69 X66 Convertible Cortez Silver 712 black top Endura, auto, bumper guards, am/fm rear speaker 44k miles
69Z28freak
Member
***
Posts: 362



View Profile
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2012, 07:17:31 PM »

Not to hijack this thread but I am planning to get this shifter and mount it to a M20 trans. Do I have to have NOS or used shifter rods or can I use after market Hurst shifter rods.









Logged

Mike 1969 Grandma Camaro
Stingr69
Member
***
Posts: 404


View Profile Email
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2012, 08:00:28 AM »

That is an interesting hybrid mix of parts between a production version and the aftermarket version of the Hurst Competition Plus shifter for a '69 Camaro. You will need some special parts from both to finish the install.  Roll Eyes

Have we talked about tail housing casting numbers yet?

We will also need to know the style of lever on the side of the tranny. The older transmissions use nuts to hold the levers on. The '69 and newer muncie uses bolts to retain the levers. The levers are different depending on the year of the transmission. They are not interchangeable.

-Mark.
Logged
JoeC
Member
***
Posts: 348


View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2012, 09:53:01 AM »

if you want to restore that shifter to OEM spec. you will need to find some parts

your forward shifter levers have the big hole used with aftermaket style bushings. I have seen where some people would drill out the OEM levers.
Your rev lever is OEM but missing the rubber bushing

The Muncie rods and trans levers are  available in reproduction but the shifter levers are not so you will need to find them or use the aftermarket bushing.
The 69 OEM shifter used a molded on rubber bushing. The 1970 and up style rubber bushing can be used as a replacement bushing

Your shifter body would need to be replaced as it should not have the stop adjustment bolt
Logged
JoeC
Member
***
Posts: 348


View Profile Email
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2012, 09:56:34 AM »

I am still not 100% with my shifter set up. Recently I have been running the Chevelle shifter rods and after market shifter plate with a OEM shifter. It has actually been shifting fine. I have purchased correct Camaro Saginaw shifter rods and I had a OEM shifter plate. When I bolt the shifter to the shifter plate the shifter will not shift into 2 or 4 because the shifter hits the tranny tunnel. When I use the aftermarket shifter plate I don't get the shifter hitting the tranny tunnel. I feel like I have a shifter plate that may not be right. However, it bolts to the holes on the Saginaw and seems like I have it right? Are there more than one bolt pattern shifter plates for a small block 69 Camaro?


only one SB shifter mount plate

was your car an original 4 speed car? If not, maybe your floor hole is not correct.

Logged
sixt9x33rs
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 840



View Profile
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2012, 12:29:10 PM »

Joe my car is an original 4 speed car, but one thing I failed to mention the tranny is out of an early 70's car. It appears the tail shaft and main casing are from different transmissions because I have found two different date codes. So is there a different shifter plate for a early 70's Camaro or Chevelle?

 I may be forced to use the shifter plate that has the clamp that goes around the tail shaft if I can't find the right plate.

Thanks
Logged

'69 RS Z/28 Olympic Gold, 711
Flat hood no spoiler, black top, endura, 4:10
POP 39,000
69 X77 Z/28 69 711 Original Paint Unrestored
'69 X66 Convertible Cortez Silver 712 black top Endura, auto, bumper guards, am/fm rear speaker 44k miles
JoeC
Member
***
Posts: 348


View Profile Email
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2012, 02:26:53 PM »

1970 Camaro used a lot different mount plate and different shifter so dont think that will help you.

I know some of the later Saginaw trans will fit in the 69 with no problems but I don't know if they made some with different mount hole locations.

The 69 OEM trans mount has a slot for the lower shifter bolt. The slot provides some adjustment to tilt the shifter forward or back.
Did your shifter tilt forward and back in the slot with no rods connected? There should be enough adjustment to fit in the floor hole.

There is a special shaped nut that fits in that slot

There is also a special button head screw needed in the lower hole of the mount plate
Logged
sixt9x33rs
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 840



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2012, 06:56:30 PM »

Joe I have the bolt with the special nut and yes I have tilted the shifter as far forward as possible to try and get more throw for second and fourth but no luck. I don't have the correct button head fastener for the shifter I have two out of three that are correct and just using a fastener that is the correct length and thread size for the missing button head fastener.

I was searching around online today reading about Saginaws and found a drawing out of service manual from a 68 firebird. The drawing showed the 4 speed Saginaw and how the shifter bolted to the tranny. The shift plate in the drawing was different from what I have. So this brings me back to the fact not knowing what this transmission came out of I will probably be forced to use this plate with the "C" clamp and deal with the shifter not being perfect in the console. It's not that bad I am just very picky and want things correct. I also have thought about putting a M 20 Muncie in it and then all is good, but I am having a hard time justifying spending $1000 because my shifter is not perfect in the console. This car is not a HP car it is a cruiser and I am trying to keep that in perspective too.

Thanks for all of your help

Lawrence
Logged

'69 RS Z/28 Olympic Gold, 711
Flat hood no spoiler, black top, endura, 4:10
POP 39,000
69 X77 Z/28 69 711 Original Paint Unrestored
'69 X66 Convertible Cortez Silver 712 black top Endura, auto, bumper guards, am/fm rear speaker 44k miles
Pages: 1 2 [All] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.088 seconds with 17 queries.