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Author Topic: ?Fake POP?  (Read 4144 times)
babaron
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« on: December 31, 2011, 11:52:20 AM »

I'm looking at a 69 Camaro car that has on the POP a sale (delivery date) 3 days BEFORE the engine and trans date stamps. Fake or am I missing something?
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tmodel66
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« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2011, 12:10:57 PM »

"Run Forrest Run" Seriously how could that happen since the dealer made the POP.
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Daniel  
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2011, 12:22:01 PM »

Post a couple of pictures (POP and engine stamp).

If the car was "sold" three days before the engine and transmission dates, then something's wrong. Could just be a dealer mistake when he stamped the tape, but we need to see the other dates as well.

Ed
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JohnZ
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« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2011, 12:30:11 PM »

"Run Forrest Run" Seriously how could that happen since the dealer made the POP.

The assembly plant made the P-O-P; all the dealer did was to add the customer's name and address with the plastic DYMO tape.
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'69 Z/28
Fathom Green
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babaron
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« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2011, 12:51:26 PM »

So, the only explanations would be dealer error or fake pop, right? The engine and trans date stamps are right there on the pop above the dymo label with the delivery date.
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babaron
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« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2012, 07:49:04 AM »

Here it is...Don't see a pic of actual engine pad stamp posted. But it's all right there on the p-o-p.
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69pace
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« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2012, 11:07:22 AM »

Is it possible that this vehicle was ordered with custom paint or other options that were not on the lot so the dealer actually sold the vehicle on this date as the order was transmitted?
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1969 Z-11 350/300 with 4 Speed
69z28302
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« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2012, 11:47:05 AM »

I've never seen a POP with "Chevrolet Motor Division" as the selling dealer on it before. Has anyone else?

MM
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69pace
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« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2012, 12:01:58 PM »

Maybe an employee purchase?
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1969 Z-11 350/300 with 4 Speed
69z28302
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« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2012, 12:31:14 PM »

It is close to Norwood.

MM
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9T4Z
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« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2012, 06:02:13 PM »

There's no reason to believe the POP is a fake. If you're going to fake one, you'd get the date right.  If there is something wrong my bet is it's at the engine/tranny stamp.  Any pics of those?
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Gary 9T4Z

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babaron
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« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2012, 07:42:04 PM »

There is also a car shipper paper that staes it is an employee order.
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69z28302
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« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2012, 08:32:20 PM »

There is also a car shipper paper that staes it is an employee order.

Can you post that shipper? Are you from the Cincinatti area? Sounds like a cool find
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Petes L48
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« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2012, 09:10:50 PM »

That address is in Sharonville, roughly 10 miles north of Norwood and just inside the 275 beltway.  Looks like a large industrial type building or warehouse with numerous bay doors.  Hard to tell age but not a new structure.  The company there now is Nisbett Brower, looks like they're in construction or architecture, building industry etc.  Number is 513-563-1111, maybe they know the building's history.

I googled the Covington KY white pages and got a Daniel R Dilts, 1207 Sunset Road, Covington KY 41011, (859) 261-0385, age 60-64 but who knows how accurate that is.  Looks like a stone's throw from the original address, and just across the Ohio River from Cincy.  Sometimes you get lucky  Smiley  
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 09:36:42 PM by Petes L48 » Logged
68camaroz28
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« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2012, 10:12:21 PM »

Maybe the question should be if a GM employee purchased a car what was the process as maybe there is nothing wrong with the POP or engine/trans #'s. Maybe JohnZ knows if an employee purchased a car was it possible to have the date filled out prior to car being completed/built. 
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Chick
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69pace
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« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2012, 11:57:50 PM »

All sounds reasonable.
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1969 Z-11 350/300 with 4 Speed
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« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2012, 07:58:29 AM »

Am I reading the transmission date correctly Undecided Huh
How does everything else correspond with the car???

TO928HB Tonawanda, Sept. 28, L48 w/TH350
YOPO6 Toledo TH350, 70, Sept. 6
12437 8cyl coupe; 9N 69 Norwood; 688125 Seq. Body #; C Carter Carb
BL0928G 3.07 12 Bolt, Sept. 28, Chevy Gear & Axle; 9 Sept.
11331 PS, PB, Radio, Power Disc Brakes, A/C; Bowtie

BTW - Ed asked for the engine stamp. Can you also post a pic of the cowl tag?
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babaron
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« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2012, 10:19:59 PM »

Here is the POP.  No pic of engine stamp.  Could Chevy have started using 1970 trans on the later build Camaros in Sept. '69? I've seen one other one that did but had no paperwork so couldn't be sure if changed or not.  Owner of that car swore it was the orig. Just wondering.
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babaron
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« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2012, 06:46:04 AM »

Just to be clear, my question is, could the number in question for the trans. be designating the model year or is it always denoting the year of manufacture of the trans.? Certainly, if it is always the year of manufacture, then this is clearly a botched POP.  If it is for the model year, then perhaps the extended production time for the camaro could have resulted in using the trans for the 1970 model year for practicality. After all, all the other models were already 1970 models by late Sept. 1969, right?  The other one I saw had a very late build date of 10D.
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69pace
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« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 06:56:53 AM »

If this is an extended year 1969 didn't some of the rear and engine stampings become year 70, after August 1969?
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1969 Z-11 350/300 with 4 Speed
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« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2012, 07:33:56 AM »

Just to be clear, my question is, could the number in question for the trans. be designating the model year or is it always denoting the year of manufacture of the trans.?

Model year...you can find it here under POP #8. http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#POPCodes

The Cowl Tag coincides with the POP in that the build date is the 4Th week of Sept. 69. In addition, TR - Dark Blue Standard Bucket, 53 53 - Glacier Blue, X11 - SS350. The next thing I would do is get pics of the engine pad, transmission & axle stamps.

I can't help with '70 transmissions being used for '69 Camaro's but so far the planets seem to be lining up. Maybe John or Kurt can shed some light on the topic.

Aside from 1970, how does the rest of the information from the POP and now the Cowl Tag correspond with the car?
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2012, 08:23:05 AM »

...As usual, Kurt/CRG doesn't miss a beat. You can find it here; http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#trans, which states;

"Some late 69 cars that were built in the extended 69 model year could have received transmissions that were dated for the 1970 model year (i.e. the model year in the transmission code would be a 0 instead of a 9)".

As for the DYMO tape, my guess is dealership/human error.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 09:31:45 AM by IZRSSS » Logged
x77-69z28
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« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2012, 10:32:13 AM »

Everything seems to be plausible. Again mass produced cars, not handbuilt supercars. Normally sept 69 would be 70 transmissions. As previously stated, if someone was faking a P-O-P, they would get the date right. Good luck with your find
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« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 12:57:37 AM »

X11 does not indicate SS 350.  X11 indicates NOT Z and NOT 396, but with style trim. My X11 is a 307 powerglide.
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69 X11 Z21 L14 glide
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babaron
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« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 06:53:20 AM »

True
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69z28302
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« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2012, 07:29:07 AM »

We'd like to see some pic's if you bought the car.

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IZRSSS
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« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2012, 07:59:42 AM »

how does the rest of the information from the POP and now the Cowl Tag correspond with the car?

babaron,

 Huh...PS, PB, PDB, Glacier Blue, Dark Blue Standard Buckets, 350 SB, etc....
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2012, 08:49:52 AM »

X11 does not indicate SS 350.  X11 indicates NOT Z and NOT 396, but with style trim. My X11 is a 307 powerglide.

My point is that it INCLUDES SS 350, which corresponds to the L48 on the POP. http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#XnnCodes

Correction... Not TR but 716 - Dark Blue Custom Bucket
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 09:23:29 AM by IZRSSS » Logged
69Z28-RS
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« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2012, 12:47:17 PM »

As you fellas might recall from the 'gas tank' codes, it was noted taht the late 69 production had '70' dates on the tanks. as well....   I've a late 09C production Z28/RS and there are are few things, like the gas tank code and the 'dripper' valve covers on the engine, etc..  which lead me to believe that the late 69's got iitems intended for 70 my production when it was expedient...
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
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babaron
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« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2012, 06:50:51 PM »

It matches the trim tag exactly. The only things I noticed that weren't correct are the front air dam but no rear spoiler (no D80 on tag but I know that it doesn't always show up on the tag) and the restorer put a GM sticker on door jam but shouldn't have.

I still can't understand how a dealer employee could accept the car with an earlier than correct date on the warranty book. It would mean that he lost some warranty coverage. I'll let you know what happens after I contact the seller.
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« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2012, 10:35:46 PM »

Check the subframe to see if there is a pre-drilled hole for the center brace (arrow on AIM D80). You can also check to see if one of the deck lids torsion rods is thicker. Either one/both would indicate factory installed D80. Don't loose any sleep over it if neither one is present. Just do like me, or every other guy and say it was dealer installed.  Grin

Keep us posted...sounds like a nice car!
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1968 Z28
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« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2012, 02:03:36 AM »

Marty....I don't believe that the presence of the hole drilled in the middle of the subframe indicates a factory install of D80.  My 1968 07C has that hole drilled in the subframe and being a 1968 it had the short spoiler installed at the factory and that spoiler didn't use any of the braces.

I am the second owner of the car and when I bought it the short factory spoiler was on there and the original owner states that the car had never been modified in any way from its factory condition.   So it appears that the subframe came from the factory with the holed drilled and I am assuming that all the subframes during that time frame were already being drilled for the upcoming 1969 production run that would use the hole for the spoiler brace.

BTW....I stated that the car had never been modified...well the original owner did install an add on air conditioner for his wife as she was the primary driver.  What a modification!!!!!   LOL
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Jerry G.

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Ermine White, Red Std. Interior
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« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2012, 07:57:53 AM »

Jerry - Your air dam would be an interesting topic for research if someone hasn't already done so. I am simply stating what CRG's report has to say concerning the '69 D80 pkg (under... Spoilers (D80) ).

http://www.camaros.org/options.shtml#idd
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KurtS
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« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2012, 10:46:47 PM »

I saw this car when it was first listed on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270875955077  VIN is 124379N688125 for future reference.

From the ad:
"engine suffix HB, casting 3932388" - late for a 388 block. Possible, but late.
"This very early production '69 was built the 4th week of September (09D), 1968."

Both the engine and axle dates are too late for that VIN. Comparing it to other known ship dates, the car should have shipped several days *before* the 10/28. Having an original drivetrain dated after the ship date - that would be hard to have happen. And having it sold before the drivetrain was built - what dealer would do that - you just shortened the warranty period.

The broadcast sheet looks good. I'd have to conclude the POP is suspect.

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Kurt S
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« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2012, 09:19:12 PM »

Did you end up buying this car? anyone have a print out of the ebay auction, the link is invalid due to over 90 days old. Thanks
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