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Author Topic: Color quandary  (Read 4843 times)
ScottJon
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« on: August 24, 2011, 09:59:04 AM »

Hi All,

Thanks so much for your help with my VIN question last week, well now we are starting to chose the paint and i am sincerely looking for advise of the group.

My car is a 1969 Z28, some schmo that owned the car before me painted it white with red (mustang red of all things) stripes. The car is a 61 Burnished Brown. So i am very inclined to paint it back to that color. my questions are as follows:

1   Burnished Brown is a metallic color, in its raw form, it looks pretty nice. However, are there any rules about adding more metal flake or a little something something to the clear coat without straying too far from acceptable?

2   i have no plans to sell the car but i do think original is best, thoughts?

3   what are the general guidelines for color considering Burnished Brown will be the base of the end result.

thanks in advance, your help is greatly appreciated

Scott
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OG69Z
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2011, 10:26:02 AM »

Hi Scott,
     I think Burnished Brown  looks terrific in its original form. It is very difficult today to get a quality repaint in a single stage as the factory did many years ago.  The new clear coats will look beautiful  on your car, and likely give you plenty of flash.
     When my Olympic Gold was done almost 10 years ago, the single stage was tried, but with poor results. It was removed and followed up with Glassuit two stage clear. It ended up fabulous, and really makes the Gold stand out in the crowd. The downside is, I just did a Concours in Carmel for the Monterey Week, and was dinged by the judges because of the clear coat. I don't know about judging elsewhere, this is the first time I've been penalized.  The upside is the paint should last a very long time, and they tell me it is very easy to repair.
     My personal taste is to keep them original. The original colors and look really puts them back in 69.
Bob
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ScottJon
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2011, 10:32:13 AM »

Thanks Bob

i like what your saying. Many people have said paint it the color you want since you are keeping it, but part of me says it started life brown, so it should be brown.

plus with the white stripes it will look striking.

from the samples they painted already the paint looks so dark, nearly black in low light, it gets very brown in bright sunlight. I actually like it. In my previous VIN number post someone posted a photo of their Burnished Brown car and that made a big difference to me
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2011, 11:28:23 AM »

Keep it original!   Smiley

Paul
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Kelley W King
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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2011, 11:36:52 AM »

My paint supplier does not recommend single stage for metallic colors.
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ScottJon
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2011, 11:53:45 AM »

so no one thinks a little "special sauce" in the clear coat is a good idea ? i was thinking some pearl essence so at night the color shifts under different lighting conditions
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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2011, 01:42:52 PM »

Keep it original!   Smiley

Paul
I agree!!!
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69z28302
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« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2011, 05:27:10 PM »

My choice is 61



MM
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ScottJon
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« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2011, 07:10:15 PM »

My choice is 61



MM
How metallic is your paint? it looks awesome

they bone stok 61 is nice from what ive seen, we were thinking about putting pearl essence in the clear coat.

I would love to see more pictures if you have them ?

my email is   scottleibow@gmail.com

i would be so appreciative

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ScottJon
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2011, 08:05:20 PM »

Im in agreement and you all have helped me know i am doing the right thing staying with the Brown, but are there any acceptable rules on how much metallic you can use ? or pearl in the top coat?

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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2011, 08:13:34 PM »

Just my opinion don't add anything. This paint has enough metallic to jump off the car when it's out in the sun. Pictures don't really do justice for this color.
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2011, 08:15:19 PM »

These are the color samples I am choosing from

the center is Burnished Brown stock
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Charley
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2011, 08:29:41 PM »

Go to the forum on yenko.net and send a pm to member 302MO. He has a stunning 69 Z in that color. He should have some pics to excite you.
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ScottJon
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2011, 08:36:00 PM »

Go to the forum on yenko.net and send a pm to member 302MO. He has a stunning 69 Z in that color. He should have some pics to excite you.

Thank You Charley, Ill do that right away
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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2011, 08:41:25 PM »

Just my opinion don't add anything. This paint has enough metallic to jump off the car when it's out in the sun. Pictures don't really do justice for this color.
 

I totally agree with this statement. Its a hard color to photograph. The sun makes It POP!

MM
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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2011, 09:26:31 PM »

These are the color samples I am choosing from

the center is Burnished Brown stock

Scott - The color chip from GM looks like the pic in the upper left hand corner. The center pic looks closer to paint code 77, Antique Gold Met. It seems like you are looking for something in between. Here is a color chart just in case your painter can use it. Even though the chip pics are poor quality maybe your painter can use them for referencing Lucite Stock #'s or Dulux Code #'s.

...use the slide bar for the bottom pic.
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ScottJon
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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2011, 10:22:37 PM »

These are the color samples I am choosing from

the center is Burnished Brown stock

Scott - The color chip from GM looks like the pic in the upper left hand corner. The center pic looks closer to paint code 77, Antique Gold Met. It seems like you are looking for something in between. Here is a color chart just in case your painter can use it. Even though the chip pics are poor quality maybe your painter can use them for referencing Lucite Stock #'s or Dulux Code #'s.

...use the slide bar for the bottom pic.

This is really super of you Marty, i can see the metallic in the lower picture. this is very helpful
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OG69Z
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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2011, 10:33:22 PM »

Just my opinion don't add anything. This paint has enough metallic to jump off the car when it's out in the sun. Pictures don't really do justice for this color.
  I agree also. Scott I'm sure you will be more than pleased with the results. A quality paint with a quality application will make that Burnished Brown really pop. Budget in for color sanding and maybe bury the stripes under the clear and it will be a standout.
    You can't go wrong financially with a factory "look" paint job. The car will retain its value for the purists. Really, does any Z/28 need anything out of the ordinary to make a statement?
     Bob
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ScottJon
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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2011, 10:42:34 PM »

Just my opinion don't add anything. This paint has enough metallic to jump off the car when it's out in the sun. Pictures don't really do justice for this color.
  I agree also. Scott I'm sure you will be more than pleased with the results. A quality paint with a quality application will make that Burnished Brown really pop. Budget in for color sanding and maybe bury the stripes under the clear and it will be a standout.
    You can't go wrong financially with a factory "look" paint job. The car will retain its value for the purists. Really, does any Z/28 need anything out of the ordinary to make a statement?
     Bob


I am SO glad I asked this question to the group.

my wife, daughter and I discussed it after reading all of your comments and we are going to paint it bone stock PPG Burnished Brown, Dover White stripes, color sanded, stripes under the clear with no pearl in the clear.

you guys are such an awesome group of enthusiasts

Thanks Again
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« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2011, 12:00:08 PM »

Scott,

I'm glad you're keeping it original.  Check these photos out...

http://www.69pace.com/paint1969burnishedbrown.htm

Paul
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Kelley W King
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« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2011, 12:13:32 PM »

In a world full of Huggers,Garnets, and Blacks. I think this color is appealing and different.
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« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2011, 12:23:11 PM »

You definitely made the right choice. Nothing beats a bone stock original color & Paul's pics proves it!
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OG69Z
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« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2011, 12:27:04 PM »

Scott, and family, glad to hear it was a family decision!   I've found lots of patience is needed when it comes to paint jobs, its nice you have the family's support. Please keep us posted as to your progress.
Bob
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« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2011, 02:46:39 PM »

Bone stock, factory look, originality, and retention of value to purists are contradictory statements to burying stripes under clear. I paint for a living and dissuade this unless the owner wants a custom job. After the edges of stripes sprayed over clear are tickled, there is no hard edge. From a painter's standpoint, there is nothing impressive in technique about burying stripes or graphics. It's simply more labor. If an owner insists on a dead flat finish, it's their car, their choice.
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Dusk_Blue_Z
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« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2011, 03:30:48 PM »

When my dad and I painted our car, we opted for laquer paint and a clear coat. In theory, wouldn't a purist want a laquer paint job without the clear? I doubt many people would elect to put a laquer finish without clear on their $60k resto. If someone has, I'd love to see it. I wish thats what we would have done.

Scott, you're the pro painter, will a laquer finish look different than an acrylic given they both have the same paint codes? Also, does clear coat effect the look of a base coat?

ScottJon, love the thought of someone putting another Burnished Brown car on the road. Thats a great color.
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LM69Z28
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« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2011, 05:07:13 PM »

When painting our 1969 original all numbers matched Fathom Green (57) X33 02A car there was no question that the stripes would and should NOT be buried in the clear, even thought its 2 stage not single stage like the factory paint (2 stage Dupont Chroma paint used). You need to decide which way to go .......do you want an original looking paint job the way the factory did it with stripes on top of the paint or Retso mod with stripes buried under the clear.
Keep in mind unless you have tons of $'s to spend to repaint the entire car again if your not happy the first go round you need to live with your decision.
BB is a great color for our 69 cars! Once cured, color sanded, polished, buffed and waxed it will just shine in the sun and look great on cooler low light days just the way our green does!
Remember the KISS theory!
Just our 2 cents
good luck
Michael Kellogg Wink
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« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2011, 06:58:50 PM »

Scott - If you don't mind please share your process for a bone stock/factory like paint job (if its possible to give a condensed version). Wink
 
-Single stage, two stage, clear?
-How long do you wait between coats?
-Is color sanding all that's needed to prep for stripes?
-"Tickling the edges", if the paint is laid on correctly would proper buffing and polishing take care of this?
-I have never seen a survivor up close but are all panels suppose to be free of fine waves (for a lack of better term)?
-Is there a book on the market you can recommend for a "lookalike"  40+ year old paint job as it was done back in the day to include all painted areas?
-And last, what has been your experience with top judged events with respect to judges preference...back in the day look, or same techniques but more refined?

Thanx
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Sauron327
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« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2011, 07:14:25 PM »

When my dad and I painted our car, we opted for laquer paint and a clear coat. In theory, wouldn't a purist want a laquer paint job without the clear? I doubt many people would elect to put a laquer finish without clear on their $60k resto. If someone has, I'd love to see it. I wish thats what we would have done.

Scott, you're the pro painter, will a laquer finish look different than an acrylic given they both have the same paint codes? Also, does clear coat effect the look of a base coat?

ScottJon, love the thought of someone putting another Burnished Brown car on the road. Thats a great color.
Acrylic lacquer is a thermoplastic and was reflowed at the factory to achieve it's uniform finish and gloss. This is not required with urethane. If you cut and buff uncleared lacquer and break through the layers, the metallic is disrupted causing irregularities. I'm unclear about your second inquiry in it's reference to acrylic. Basecoat in a urethane system, if this is to what you are referring in the third question, not only affects the appearance, it's required. The tints in newer paints are nothing like those in older lacquer. Many formulas provided have to be tinted to hit the target if accuracy is the objective.
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« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2011, 08:05:35 PM »

Marty, A brief synopsis about painting is not that easy. As far as top judged events, my depth of participation or interest in this hobby is unlike others. You'll have to ask the guys that live it. It's been said on this site that judges prefer a urethane that is not overly buffed and resembles lacquer. Original lacquer has an inherent finish that needs to be mimicked with gun adjustments but cannot be replicated with just out of the gun results, different animal than urethane. I don't shoot lacquer anymore, nor has anyone requested their urethane resemble it. It's not what those customers wanted. You can't buy lacquer everywhere anymore either. I still can but it's not the same as old lacquer anyway. Time between coats is recommended flash time. All urethanes can be shot in S.S. or BC/CC but for a resto S.S. for metallics is out. If you want to get close to original with urethane I would not use BC/CC with solids, many do though. Stripe prep depends on whether you are burying them or not. Your tickling assumption is correct. The edges can be cut a little prior to buffing if needed. Should not have to if effective mil thickness is kept to a minimum. Firstgenaddict (James) has hundreds of detailed photos of a survivor and all it's less than perfect paint. Very few would want to pay for a job done like the factory: missed spots, dryness, overspray, sloppiness, etc.  If you think these cars are bad, go look at a survivor Mopar.
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« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2011, 08:59:45 PM »

You are exactly right, I don't know of anyone who would pay today's prices for yesterdays paint. As I mentioned before, I have never seen a First Gen survivor but I have seen other Chevy's in their birthday suits. Amazing, one would think it could be duplicated with a home improvement sprayer. Even so, I don't think I have seen anything that has moved me more (car wise). Nothing beats the real deal.

It would be interesting to duplicate the old style just to see the reaction of judges. I would imagine the majority would wonder what the heck was this guy was thinking.

Thanx for taking time to answer a difficult topic.
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« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2011, 12:46:48 AM »

Scott,

I'm glad you're keeping it original.  Check these photos out...

http://www.69pace.com/paint1969burnishedbrown.htm

Paul

that caris spectacular, thank you for sharing
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« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2011, 01:07:41 AM »

You are exactly right, I don't know of anyone who would pay today's prices for yesterdays paint. As I mentioned before, I have never seen a First Gen survivor but I have seen other Chevy's in their birthday suits. Amazing, one would think it could be duplicated with a home improvement sprayer. Even so, I don't think I have seen anything that has moved me more (car wise). Nothing beats the real deal.

It would be interesting to duplicate the old style just to see the reaction of judges. I would imagine the majority would wonder what the heck was this guy was thinking.

Thanx for taking time to answer a difficult topic.


ok this was a bit over my understanding.

are we saying not to pait the stipes before the clear coat?  or am i a bozo for not following this conversation?

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« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2011, 05:57:05 AM »

Scott, to maintain originality, stripes go over the clear, not under. These cars were not clearcoated originally. The paint you will be using is a completely different system, it's BC/CC. Some guys like their stripes buried so the finish is dead flat at the tape line, but it's technically incorrrect. Search old posts and you will find points were deducted for doing so. If you want it correct, spray the stripes over the clear. Your car, your choice.

Marty, go hunt up James' resto progress, it's complete with drips on the LCAs, dryness, missed spots and all.
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« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2011, 07:29:09 AM »

ok this was a bit over my understanding.
are we saying not to pait the stipes before the clear coat?  or am i a bozo for not following this conversation?

SJ - The post you are referring to was just a conversation between two guys talking shop & has nothing to do with the original thread. Sometimes it is hard for me to stay on topic. Call it ADD or whatever.

I have always been intrigued by how much effort goes into today's restorations in a quest for the perfect car. This was all I knew until I wondered on to this site. Then I began reading some of John's reports and learned these cars were rolling off the assembly line at a rate of 1 per minute. This kinda sums up what the paint must have looked like. If I am ever fortunate enough to find a "Survivor" in the truest sense of the word I would keep it exactly the way it is. But, if I ever decide to tackle my own restoration on my current car, I would not settle for a lookalike paint from BITD.
 
Hope this clears  things up  Wink.

Scott - or someone, can you post the link to James' resto progress. I tried and came up empty. Thanx
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Kelley W King
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« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2011, 07:50:44 AM »

When replacing the non original cowl hood on my Ralley Green laquer SS, I could not find laquer paint. We did the camera thing and mixed Chroma and it did not match at all. We switched to another brand and it did match but you can still tell it is different paint.
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« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2011, 10:37:23 AM »


I have always been intrigued by how much effort goes into today's restorations in a quest for the perfect car. This was all I knew until I wondered on to this site. Then I began reading some of John's reports and learned these cars were rolling off the assembly line at a rate of 1 per minute. This kinda sums up what the paint must have looked like. If I am ever fortunate enough to find a "Survivor" in the truest sense of the word I would keep it exactly the way it is. But, if I ever decide to tackle my own restoration on my current car, I would not settle for a lookalike paint from BITD.



My car was built in Van Nuys, i live in the Valley (not too far from there) and in fact the restoration shop is in Van Nuys just a mile or so from the plant. The reason i mention this is that there are still people around town that worked at the plant and I have gotten to meet a few. If you read my post from last week about the VIN question  i was encountering, you can see some of the mistakes were made.

I haven't met anyone from the plant that doesn't laugh when i tell them about my car and the usual response is "hey, it was the '60's in L.A." lots of so tires of drugs and rock and roll.

I never talk to anyone with a Van Nuys car that doesn't have some issue with it that, Im not surprised they finished one per minute
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« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2011, 02:55:01 PM »

outside the lines  Grin


grind marks





runs



LIGHT spray



deck lid edge has almost no paint..





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James
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Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2011, 02:58:47 PM »

How bout multiple errors on one panel... runs and overspray plus the stripes don't line up to the recessed areas they are off by 1/4"


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James
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Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2011, 06:07:16 PM »

James - I checked out a few more pics in your Signature link. Excellent resource!

Thanx
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« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2011, 06:09:20 PM »

I literally have THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of High resolution shots of the Black Survivor!
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James
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Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2011, 08:12:43 PM »

These are the color samples I am choosing from

the center is Burnished Brown stock


Scott, where did you get an assortment of supples like that? Just curious.

MM
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« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2011, 08:35:59 PM »

These are the color samples I am choosing from

the center is Burnished Brown stock

there are several sources here in Los Angeles and one came from the east coast

please feel free to email me if you want specifics


Scott, where did you get an assortment of supples like that? Just curious.

MM
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« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2011, 08:39:57 PM »

another question,  dose anyone have pictures of the stripes UNDER the spoiler?  i have so many different opinions of where they stop i.e., at the front edge of the spoiler, feathered from the front of the area to the back, and others say at the top of the trunk deck,

I KNOW they don't come down the back portion of the trunk lip, but I'm looking for graphic evidence of where they stopped from the factory ended them

PLEASE
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« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2011, 09:30:30 PM »

Replies 1, 6, & 7...

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=8486.0
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« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2011, 09:55:56 PM »

the stripes were painted on the car with the spoiler on it already???  I never knew that

thanks so much Marty
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« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2011, 11:23:09 PM »

Here are pics of a orig paint 69 Z I redid in about 1990. Pretty sloppy stripes. Also notice the width of the thin outside stripe compared to the red dividing stripe next to it. I had to post them on the Camaro site because they are apparently too large for here.
http://www.thecamarosite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3047#post3047

***added them to the post. Kurt****
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« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2011, 11:56:42 PM »

Here are pics of a orig paint 69 Z I redid in about 1990. Pretty sloppy stripes. Also notice the width of the thin outside stripe compared to the red dividing stripe next to it. I had to post them on the Camaro site because they are apparently too large for here.
http://www.thecamarosite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3047#post3047


thanks Charley,

i cant see the photo's on that site, it says I dont have the rights to, i even registered, but no luck
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« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2011, 12:02:54 AM »

thats wierd. Are you logged in ?
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« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2011, 12:13:10 AM »

yes I am
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Happy 1969 Z28 owner guardian
ScottJon
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scottleibow@gmail.com scottleibow scott_leibow
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« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2011, 01:23:28 AM »

Here are pics of a orig paint 69 Z I redid in about 1990. Pretty sloppy stripes. Also notice the width of the thin outside stripe compared to the red dividing stripe next to it. I had to post them on the Camaro site because they are apparently too large for here.
http://www.thecamarosite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3047#post3047

can you email them to me ?

Im at scottleibow@gmail.com

i would be very grateful if you could


thanks
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Happy 1969 Z28 owner guardian
Charley
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« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2011, 08:47:37 AM »

sent
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KurtS
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« Reply #51 on: September 07, 2011, 07:27:49 PM »

Charley,
The file size added up to more than 300KB, so you just had to put the mugshot picture in a different post.
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Kurt S
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