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Author Topic: VIN Number Question  (Read 7600 times)
ScottJon
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« on: August 13, 2011, 09:46:57 PM »

So here goes

I have a 1969 Z28, made in Van Nuys, interestingly it is at a restoration shop in Van Nuys being restored.

The Engine is stamped 0656 as the last four digits

The VIN pleat under the windshield ends in 0657

so we take off the front clip, start working on the fire wall and cowl and low and behold, there is a number stamped in the metal, but get this....

it ends in 0656 (like the motor), except the 6 is "X"ed out and above the 6 is a 7

the engine ends in 6,the VIN ends in 7 (thus the registration does too) and the cowl has both.

I have spoken to people that worked at the factory back in the 60's and they don't seemed phased at all. They say it was the 60's in Los Angeles.

im not sure what to do next,  any suggestions or comments?

 Roll Eyes
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68Zproject
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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2011, 10:52:02 PM »

I think you need to sell the car to one of us after the restoration for $500.  Thank you.  I know I'm not much help but I'll let the experts chime in.  I do know stuff like this has happened before.
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ScottJon
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2011, 10:56:11 PM »

$500 ?   who knew i could get that much ?


 Grin Grin
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« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2011, 07:42:34 AM »

Do you have any paperwork?
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2011, 08:56:19 AM »

And, for the tie-breaker, what does the other hidden VIN show?

c
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ScottJon
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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2011, 09:44:55 AM »

And, for the tie-breaker, what does the other hidden VIN show?

c



Where is the fourth ? The transmission ?  That's the only non original major part.  The one in the car is from 1969 but it is a warranty repair  model so it is the correct part number and date. But no VIN number

There was paperwork with the car about the replaced trans in 1970
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Gramps69Z
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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2011, 09:50:08 AM »

Hidden VIN locations.   I can read mine under the cowl with a flashlight.      What is that number?

http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#PartialVIN
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Captain John Wykoff
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2011, 01:04:45 PM »

That is something...wish we had pics with the original paint before the cowl was painted over. Behind the heater motor is another, I'm sure it is the same deal. The rolled number is X'd.
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James
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Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2011, 04:09:03 PM »

This photo with teh 6 Xed out is the one from behind the heater motor.

the Vin plate on the dash ends in 7, the motor ends in 6


i only know of four places for the VIN and since i dont have the Muncie, i have three places.

one ends in 6, one ends in 7 and one ends in a 6 that was turned into a 7

i do have pictures of it from before the paint
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2011, 04:48:33 PM »

The one you posted is from the Top of the cowl where the pass side washer nozzle embeds into the channel with black putty.

here is another TOP COWL one.  


The other being referenced is stamped under the Round hole for the Heater motor on the passenger side front face of the firewall.
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James
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Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2011, 05:57:19 PM »

Here's the other one.  The stamping on mine and the one James posted is concise while your's looks different.
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Captain John Wykoff
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ScottJon
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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2011, 07:09:57 PM »

Thanks!   I will check this out tomorrow
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ScottJon
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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2011, 10:27:40 PM »

it still seems inconceivable to me that they let a car out of the factory with a VIN number on the motor one number off the one on the VIN plate on the dash.

for 9 years, i couldn't understand how that was possible

now that we have the car dismantled i have the cowl VIN with both numbers and that makes it even odder, clearly the cowl proves that someone at the factory knew a mistake was made and instead of fix it officially, they crossed out the other examples.
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tmodel66
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2011, 06:22:45 AM »

I wonder why the  7 on the cowl panel is different size stamp than the original.  Can you get a good pic of the VIN tag?
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Daniel  
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ScottJon
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2011, 10:06:37 AM »

Here is the VIN tag
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ScottJon
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« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2011, 02:41:01 PM »

So i have spoken to someone at Barrett Jackson, his comments led me to believe that this stuff happened all the time

He said, blocks cracked and they grabbed the next one in line and so forth, BUT ....... my block is one LOWER than the car

He didnt seemed to concerned but, he did say it was not a numbers matching car, and it could or couldnt hurt the resale value because they are one number off but that it makes for a great story


 Undecided

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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2011, 03:09:00 PM »

Do you have a pic of the engine pad stamp?
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Daniel  
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ScottJon
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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2011, 03:50:36 PM »

here it is
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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2011, 04:44:05 PM »

I'm going out on a limb and say based on what I see in the pic, I'm inclined to agree with Scott; Number one, there is no clear evidence (at least from this angle) the pad has been decked. Number two, All forged pads I have seen have clear separation between the partial Vin & the engine stamp, and three, who else but the factory would make a change as obvious as this? Not only on the pad, but also on the sheet metal? I don't know of any forger that would go to this extreme. Who knows, as many units as were produced each day, maybe the line worker just picked up the wrong number (6 instead of the 7).

FWIW...the engine number was stamped before the partial Vin. You're correct Scott, it does make for a good story.
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ScottJon
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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2011, 04:53:58 PM »

Wow, thanks, Im starting to feel a little better about this. I knew you guys would know way more than I do.

Thank you all so much

this car, will be my 9 year old daughters 2nd car, it will be over 50 years old when she is ready for it
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« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2011, 05:04:33 PM »

Scott - please keep in mind this is only one persons opinion and I am certainly no expert. I am certain others will chime in who are MUCH more qualified then me. Your venture with this car would be much more manageable if you had factory documentation referencing these changes. Without it, you will always have difficulties supporting these same issues. In addition, Zs bring a premium & those willing to pay these prices leave little to chance.

Great news with regards to your daughter!
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ScottJon
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« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2011, 05:15:20 PM »

i totally understand your point

your comments are truly appreciated
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jacmac
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« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2011, 06:07:36 PM »

On the partial vin on the block why is the 5 & 6 bigger?Huh
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ScottJon
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« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2011, 06:09:42 PM »

I have no idea, but the guys that worked at the factory said that happened all the time

i can only go by what they told me. I happen to be lucky that i live a few miles from where the car was built
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« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2011, 07:19:09 PM »

It's good unless a master forger did this.

On the partial vin on the block why is the 5 & 6 bigger?Huh

They put numbers in a gang stamp.  They are not always uniform in size.  But, the transmission stamp should look the same as the engine.
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68Z28
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« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2011, 08:11:55 PM »

It's a restamp!!  But to help you out Scott, I'm going to offer you $1000.00 for the car...   Wink

Seriously, it looks OK to me.  Kurt and Jerry are the stamp experts.  I'd get their opinion.

Paul
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ScottJon
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« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2011, 08:33:11 PM »

I bet if I hod out, you will come up to $1500.00 !!!

i wish i met you guys 9 years ago, i spent all that time worrying about the stamping, every guy or woman i met that worked at the factory said it was perfectly fine, but they were also the ones that told me they were stoned or drunk at work since it was Ls Angeles in the 60's so i could only believe them so much :-)  i hope to re-pay the favors in the future.


So far, we have completely rebuilt the motor, Trans, Master Cylinder, Carb etc, the interior is out, the front clip is off, getting ready to start taking the paint off. I am so hoping to be done by November so i can drive the car. Otherwise, summer in L.A. with no AC is not as much fun as it may sound

We are going back to Burnished Brown with White Stripes..

keep those offers coming Paul
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« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2011, 08:57:00 PM »

There are many VN cars with different sized numerals in the VIN stamping... I wouldn't be worried about that in the least.
The Assembly stamp and pad look good compared to other mid april blocks. The block is a 618 casting number correct?


If the rolled number advanced manually from vehicle to vehicle then there is the possibility that (Heaven Forbid) a line worked did not advance the number which was subsequently caught. With the Engine installed and the Alt in place it would have been impossible to re-strike the block...  
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James
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Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2011, 09:11:57 PM »

yes you are correct James and thank you for your input

Im humbled by the level of knowledge you guys possess
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« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2011, 09:14:35 PM »

I bet if I hod out, you will come up to $1500.00 !!!

keep those offers coming Paul

Well, my offer was for "as is" right now, but if you want to complete the restoration first, I'd be happy to give you $1500.00...   Grin

Paul
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ScottJon
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« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2011, 09:39:13 PM »

I spoke to my daughter since it will be her car and she said thank you for your offer but she is not interested, but if you would like to buy her ice cream she would let you


she is 9
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« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2011, 11:24:07 PM »

I bet if I hod out, you will come up to $1500.00 !!!

keep those offers coming Paul



Well, my offer was for "as is" right now, but if you want to complete the restoration first, I'd be happy to give you $1500.00...   Grin

Paul

I want to go back to our original discussion of $500 after the resto.
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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2011, 12:10:49 AM »

The VIN was assigned as it entered the Chevy side. http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml#chev
It was then stamped in the sheetmetal and the VIN in the stamper was automatically indexed to the next VIN for the next car.
The VIN didn't advance correctly and they caught it. What's interesting is the broadcast sheets apparently were generated for this incorrect VIN, hence the engine VIN stamp.

Was the broadcast sheet on top of the gas tank?
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2011, 08:02:58 AM »

They put numbers in a gang stamp.  They are not always uniform in size.  But, the transmission stamp should look the same as the engine.

Scott - can you post a pic of your transmissions partial VIN? The link below shows where its located...

http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#PartialVINs
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ScottJon
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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2011, 10:02:58 AM »

Hi, unfortunately, the transmission is the only major part that was replaced. there is a M22 in it now, but when i bought the car, the seller told me that the transmission was replaced as a warranty replacement back in 1970, according to the people they bought it from.

The broadcast was not under the gas tank, i suspect the gas tank was replaced at one point as well, Daniel the person helping me with the restoration specifically went looking for the broadcast sheet when he removed the tank. He is pretty sure it is a replacement gas tank.

But all else looks right, the block has the double humps and correct casting, the intake manifold, carb is a DZ, exhaust manifolds, rear end, frame, dash board, etc

I bought this car from an attorney in San Francisco that repossessed it from a husband that didnt pay the bill for the divorce. After i purchased it and had it checked it out, the attorney let me talk to the wife and that is how i got the information i do have. The Attorney had the car checked out in San Francisco and had it confirmed that it was really a Z28. Honestly, i dont think it was all that reliable, you all are so knowledgeable and helpful.

I wish i knew more
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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2011, 12:32:43 PM »

I spoke to my daughter since it will be her car and she said thank you for your offer but she is not interested, but if you would like to buy her ice cream she would let you

she is 9

Instead of ice cream, I'll introduce her to my 10 year old son.  He'll probably wind up with my 1968 Rally Sport Z/28, after all, he tells all his friends that it's his car now.

Paul
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ScottJon
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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2011, 12:35:21 PM »

:-)
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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2011, 06:34:54 PM »

Thanx for the info Scott. Amazing what this poor Z has had to endour. Both at the factory and by the previous owners. Sounds like it finally found a good home. How about sharing some pics of what the car looked like before you began restoration?
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ScottJon
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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2011, 08:30:32 PM »

ok, but dont be mad at me for the STUPID colors, when you say this car has had a rough life.......  the stripes are Ford Mustang Red.

I know, I know, but i didnt do it.

it is going back to Burnished Brown with White stripes as it started life. i wouldnt have chosen Brown, but i cant erase what the car is deep down

has anyone seen Burnished Brown in real life? is it awful ?
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ScottJon
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2011, 08:31:24 PM »

Sorry, forgot to add the photo
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« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2011, 09:09:44 PM »

has anyone seen Burnished Brown in real life? is it awful ?

I never paid much attention to it until now. Sorry guys who have this color but God it looks  Tongue! On the plus side, how many folks actually ordered that color. And, there isn't a color on this planet that can make a Z look bad (although this one comes close). Now you have the complete package; a unique engine, transmission & paint  Wink.

 
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ScottJon
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« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2011, 09:14:53 PM »

the guy doing the restoration said he can lay down some gold primer under the brown and then play with the clear coat a little.


but Ive seen other brown GM cars from the era, and Im not sure if they were Burnished Brown, but I will stick to calling it Monkey Poop Brown

 Grin
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« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2011, 09:50:02 PM »

You have a fine looking Camaro & your sense of humor is refreshing. Good luck with your project!
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ScottJon
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« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2011, 09:56:55 PM »

Thank you very much, you made my day

Im on Facebook Scott Leibow if you can go there, i put up a photo album of pictures from the restoration.

We are in week 7, every Friday i post another couple of pictures for my family and friends to follow the progress.

We are getting close to taking the paint off. I am so excited and i can't thank every one enough for all the great comments, and insight

i wish i could than you all individually.

if anyone else would like to comment on the VIN or color, Im all ears !
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« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2011, 10:00:58 PM »

Burnished Brown done right really looks better than you would believe.
There are a few BB copos
HERE is a BB RS Double COPO with liquid tire chain option...

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James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2011, 10:05:43 PM »

I stand corrected...that car looks great. Although it looks nothing like the color chip. The chip appears to have 80% black & 20% brown.
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ScottJon
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« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2011, 10:17:51 PM »

Burnished Brown done right really looks better than you would believe.
There are a few BB copos
HERE is a BB RS Double COPO with liquid tire chain option...



I LIKE that, hard to call that Monkey Poop Brown.  Thanks

what is Liquid Tire Chain ?
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« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2011, 10:24:53 PM »

...
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ScottJon
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« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2011, 10:29:44 PM »

Im missing something on that one ?  is that Liquid Tire Chain ?
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« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2011, 11:54:15 PM »

scott, my car is burnished brown and it is one of the coolest colors out there. it looks completely different depending on the sun. unless they pulled the car apart when they changed the color, the side cowl should still be burnished brown. let me know
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« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2011, 11:58:49 PM »

sadly the car is white everywhere, it wasn't a great job at that.

we are fixing everything especially the paint.  I would LOVE to see more pictures of your car. from the little picture under your male it looks very awesome.

can you tell me about your paint job ? i.e., did you use ant special techniques under the paint or over? is it metallic at all  ?

I'm extremely interested
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« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2011, 12:35:18 PM »

ok i researched the Liquid Tire Chain option

i cant believe in 50 years, Ive never heard of such a thing.

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« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2011, 03:23:15 PM »

Here are all of the RPO's (Option List). The RPO numbers are found on the left hand column. You can also find many of the RPO's in the AIM (Assembly Instruction Manual). The above pic is a pg from the '69 AIM. If you do not have this I strongly suggest you buy one. Especially since you are restoring your car.

http://www.camaros.org/pdf/options.pdf
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« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2011, 03:43:41 PM »

Sir, THAT is excellent !
i will print it and pick up the Instruction Manual, i looked on Amazon and can get it there.

thanks for the tip
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« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2011, 09:08:38 PM »

scott, my car is burnished brown and it is one of the coolest colors out there. it looks completely different depending on the sun. unless they pulled the car apart when they changed the color, the side cowl should still be burnished brown. let me know

I would really love to se more pictures of your Burnished Brown car, the painter made me some samples today but i want to get a better feel for what you can do with the color
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« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2011, 09:54:05 PM »

Hi All,

i just wanted to update you on the progress of my restoration.

after 16 weeks, the engine is back from being rebuilt, the DZ carb is working flawlessly, the M22 is completely rebuilt and so clean you could eat off of it, the rear end has been rebuilt, painted and the drive shaft balanced cleaned up.

the rear end, brakes (including the lines), trans, motor, fuel tank and lines have all be put back into the car and we are about a week away from starting the motor. We are putting the radiator core support and radiator in this week and connecting all the hoses and fuel lines to the carb.

Im very excited about getting to this point, I really wanted to thank you all for your amazing help with my little Z28 !
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« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2011, 02:16:56 PM »

sorry scott. i forgot to send pics. send me a PM with your email address as that is the only way i know to send pics. my car is a 29 year old restoration, painted in laquer in 1982. the color has a gold metallic in it and it looks completely different in sun and shade.
buddy
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69 x77 burnished brown, 711 int 05A bought in 78
67 rs/ss 350 butternut yellow 4 speed 2nd owner
70 Z28 forrest green, green int, M40, bk vinyl roof PROJECT
99 SS hugger orange 6spd NO TTOPS bought new 1 of 54
11 cts-v blk diamond  edition wagon 556hp sick!
x77-69z28
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« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2011, 02:24:59 PM »

one other thing scott, what is the build date on the trim tag. that has not come up in this conversation yet. also the casting number from the back of the block. is it a 618 block or 010?
thanks
buddy
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69 x77 burnished brown, 711 int 05A bought in 78
67 rs/ss 350 butternut yellow 4 speed 2nd owner
70 Z28 forrest green, green int, M40, bk vinyl roof PROJECT
99 SS hugger orange 6spd NO TTOPS bought new 1 of 54
11 cts-v blk diamond  edition wagon 556hp sick!
ScottJon
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« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2011, 08:11:43 PM »

the block is a 618


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ScottJon
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« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2011, 08:23:02 PM »

one other thing scott, what is the build date on the trim tag. that has not come up in this conversation yet. also the casting number from the back of the block. is it a 618 block or 010?
thanks
buddy

I think the date on the trim tag is first week of May 1969

it is a Van Nuys tag (not Los Angeles) and it says  05A
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L78 steve
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« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2011, 09:16:24 AM »

Is Burnished Brown the same color as Cappuccino on the 69 Pontiacs? I had a 69 GTO with the Cappuccino Brown and It was very nice.
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69 Z/28 Dover White X33,ZL2,PS,M20,Std.int.04C
67 SS/RS Mt. Green 1W,2LGSR,3SL,4K,5BY,07C
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« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2011, 10:00:59 AM »

Is Burnished Brown the same color as Cappuccino on the 69 Pontiacs? I had a 69 GTO with the Cappuccino Brown and It was very nice.

Appears to be the same as 69 Pontiac Expresso Brown.  Didn't see a standard Cappuccino color for 69 Pontiac, Buick used the Burnished Brown name and Olds used Sable.  Cadillac did not use that color in 69.
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« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2011, 10:22:03 AM »

Is Burnished Brown the same color as Cappuccino on the 69 Pontiacs? I had a 69 GTO with the Cappuccino Brown and It was very nice.

Appears to be the same as 69 Pontiac Expresso Brown.  Didn't see a standard Cappuccino color for 69 Pontiac, Buick used the Burnished Brown name and Olds used Sable.  Cadillac did not use that color in 69.


Was it called Dark Brown Metallic or Brown Metallic for the other makes of GM cars ?
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Petes L48
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« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2011, 10:41:43 AM »

You can check out colors here, enter make and year next to the red arrow and the PPG paint chip sheet with codes will be displayed.  Just look for the same code under the various makes. 

http://www.autocolorlibrary.com/default.aspx


 
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L78 steve
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« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2011, 09:09:08 AM »

Expresso is what I was thinking. It is a very nice color.
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69 Z/28 Dover White X33,ZL2,PS,M20,Std.int.04C
67 SS/RS Mt. Green 1W,2LGSR,3SL,4K,5BY,07C
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« Reply #65 on: November 04, 2011, 02:52:11 PM »

Scott, I do not know how I could have missed this post.  I have a 69 van nuys SS a couple hundred car before yours, also 05A.  most of the 1000 or so VN 05A are the strike cars.  At the end of April the VN plant workers struck.  It was not settled until mid june (Kurt, keep me honest Smiley), then they finished up the remaining cars in the plant using the parts they had on hand. I think they finished up the remaining cars in july sometime.  And then closed the camaros out of VN.  The last Camaro VIN I heard about was 9L531163, first 05a VIN was around 9L530156.  Does not surprise me a bit that your stamps are funky.  I am missing my heater core stamp, but the cowl and dash match. no engine or trans Sad

Burnished Brown looks flat in the shade, but really has something in the sunlight.  Good luck on your Z!
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« Reply #66 on: November 04, 2011, 04:01:34 PM »

Scott, I do not know how I could have missed this post.  I have a 69 van nuys SS a couple hundred car before yours, also 05A.  most of the 1000 or so VN 05A are the strike cars.  At the end of April the VN plant workers struck.  It was not settled until mid june (Kurt, keep me honest Smiley), then they finished up the remaining cars in the plant using the parts they had on hand. I think they finished up the remaining cars in july sometime.  And then closed the camaros out of VN.  The last Camaro VIN I heard about was 9L531163, first 05a VIN was around 9L530156.  Does not surprise me a bit that your stamps are funky.  I am missing my heater core stamp, but the cowl and dash match. no engine or trans Sad

Burnished Brown looks flat in the shade, but really has something in the sunlight.  Good luck on your Z!

OK, THIS IS FASCINATING, i never heard this before, even from the people I have met that worked at the factory. but it makes total sense.

the stamps on my car have baffled me for almost 9 years until i found this group.

THANK YOU SO MUCH
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KevinW
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« Reply #67 on: November 04, 2011, 08:21:58 PM »

Found some info

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=5036.0
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« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2011, 09:50:56 PM »

We are days away from putting the car back together, I decided to drive the car for 500 miles after all of this, before we paint it.

I went back and looked at the numbers again. It really is a interesting car, i dont think any of this makes it worth more, i only wanted to make sure it was in fact a real Z28

But this does make a great story
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« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2012, 12:13:44 AM »

Hi All,

Im happy to announce to all of you that have helped me with all of my dopey questions on my Z28 restoration that we are done with everything except for paint and body work which i will do in the summer when it is too hot to drive it with no A/C.

We have restored, repaired, and rebuilt every part that could be, and replaced those parts that couldn't be used with exact period parts (thanks ebay).   we  test drove it today and to quote the mechanic, it is fast as snot :-)

I so appreciate everyone's help
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« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2012, 07:23:51 PM »

congrats! cant wait to see another burnished brown beauty on the road.
buddy
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69 x77 burnished brown, 711 int 05A bought in 78
67 rs/ss 350 butternut yellow 4 speed 2nd owner
70 Z28 forrest green, green int, M40, bk vinyl roof PROJECT
99 SS hugger orange 6spd NO TTOPS bought new 1 of 54
11 cts-v blk diamond  edition wagon 556hp sick!
ScottJon
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« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2012, 08:59:44 PM »

Id like see yours too

we are a small group that even like the color as Ive learned.

it is super cool to me, and obviously you too

thanks Buddy
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