Author Topic: Latest known 69 Z28 assembly date that had 618 Block? And a few related Q'S  (Read 3542 times)

clm69z28

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
I have not been able to find the latest assembly date for Z's with the 618 block. I know the 010 block started in April and there was overlap, so how late were the other blocks used?  And given that info, if a block was replaced with a CE block, did they always exchange the same part numbers, or could they have used a 618 block for an 010 block, given that they both were being used at the sa :)me time? And how far apart could the CE part numbers be from the assembly dates?  Sorry for all of the questions but I searched/read as many pages as I could take before posting. Thanks as usual for all of the great info.   

Mark

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 999
    • View Profile
the casting number is not a part number, it only identifies the mold design used to cast the part.  That number is tied to an engineering document that specifies what features the item will have.  Once the casting number is changed for a design reason the previous number is no longer used.  There may be a supply of castings already done that continue to be used until the supply is exhausted, but no new castings are made with the superceded design.  If you blew up a 618 block (or a 386 or388 block) after April you would get a block that came off the line around the time you blew it up.  If you happened to blow it up in April of 69 there may have been a raw 618 casting available, and it might have been used to make your CE block.  The more time that went by the less likely it would be that one was laying around and you would get an 010 block.  Blocks were not selected for any specific use (beyond what ever was require to make that specific engine) based on their casting number, the foundary grabbed a block off the rack and had it machined for the engine that was going to be made.
Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11

clm69z28

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Mark:

That makes sense to me and it is kinda what I thought. The only thing I am still not clear on is how late were the 618 blocks installed? I found posts from Kurt S. and others that they were in May '69 cars (body vin tag date), but not in June '69.  Is that a correct assumption? 

Mark

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 999
    • View Profile
You have to remember, your comparing assembly information (when the block was machined and turned into a specific engine) and casting info.  they are not the same thing.

The 618 block would have stopped being cast in mid to late April.  The blocks are knocked out of the molds and stored at the foundry on racks, and pulled out as needed for production.  Once the switch to 010 blocks occured they were cast, and stuffed into the same racks as well.  I guess how long a specific 618 block sat at the foundry depends on where any particular block sat in the racks, and wether or not it needed a repair (those blocks were sent to another part of the foundry if they could be repaired, and then returned to the racks).  I would not expect to see a 618 block with a casting date later than the middle of April, but its possible it could have sat for a month or more before it was actually machined and stamped with an assembly date.  That would not be the normal practice.
Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11

copo

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
I use to own a original 69 DZ engine with 618 block with a casting date of A-15-69 and and a assembly build date of V0508DZ.

KurtS

  • CRG Coordinator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3626
    • View Profile
Most blocks were used within a few days of being cast. But it wasn't a First In First Out system and a block could sit for a while.
Most 618 blocks were used by the end of April with a few hanging on a little longer.
Kurt S
CRG

clm69z28

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Thanks everybody for the responses. So my last question is how late would an 618 CE-A block be available? As I understand the CE system,  the A is thought to indicate that the sequence #'s were started over indicating that this might be a late 69 or even later block, either as a warranty repair or a dealer over the counter item. And if it was a warranty reprair, would the dealer replace a damaged 010 block with an 618 CE-Ablock? Does that logic make sense?  That's all for now and thanks as usual to you guys.

Mark

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 999
    • View Profile
Not unless the CE block was assembled before the 1st week or so of May 69. If you blew up a motor in October of 69 there wouldn't have been any 618 blocks laying around to machine into a 302 (or any other engine), so you would get an 010 block. CE blocks or assemblies were not stocked for future use, they were assembled as needed, and shipped to the dealer for installation into the car with the damaged component.  The only exception would be if a dealer ordered a complete engine assembly for his own stock.  that engine would have been assembled when ordered and may have sat on the dealers shelving for years before being sold to someone.
Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11

clm69z28

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
mark;

Thanks for the info. Any opinion on the CE9 "A" in the stamping sequence?  does this make it an older assembly than May?

KurtS

  • CRG Coordinator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3626
    • View Profile
A block is a block. They didn't use anything different for CE blocks.

Any block could easily have been used to warrant an 010 block. All depends on how much demand there was for a given warranty CE block and if it sat in a warehouse for a while or not..... And I imagine some regions had slower inventory turnover than others.
Kurt S
CRG

Mark

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 999
    • View Profile
I think (me) that the A indicates an assembly, ie a fitted block with pistons but no crank, cam, etc.  A B suffix indicates just a block, no internals, C indicates a complete shortblock, crank, pistons, cam, etc.  Its the digits that indicate when the block was made, but that depends on how many actual CE engines (or parts of engines) were made in any particular year which is very hard to nail down.  This method would result in a maximum possible number of engines from any one engine plant of 30,000 per year.

Other thoughts are that since each plant built roughly 30,000 blocks each based on the sequential numbers that each plant was asigned.  The first run thru of 30000 engines (or parts thereof) did not have a letter prefix, the second 30K had an A prefix, the third a B, etc.  I've seen letters as high as C on CE stamps, so that means that Flint V8 plant (or tonowanda, or the Flint 6 cylinder plant) could have made 90,000 to 120,000 CE components each year. Thats a bunch of engines and/or blocks being replaced each year.
Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11

L78 steve

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 610
    • View Profile
Mine is a 0421DZ 618.
69 Z/28 Dover White X33,ZL2,PS,M20,Std.int.04C
67 SS/RS Mt. Green 1W,2LGSR,3SL,4K,5BY,07C
70 Nova L78 Blk. Cherry,Sandalwood,M21,02B

clm69z28

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Mark:

I would agree with your explanation of the letters denoting the type of assembly. That wold be consistent with the part number on the engine that I have been discussing in this thread. Thanks very much to everybody.

clm69z28

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Hi Mark:

The sequence number in this particular CE engine is- CE9A96740 .  Have you ever seen a CE block with a 9xxxx sequence number?  It doesn't jive with any of the information that I have reviewed  on the website with these engines?  Just when I thought I understood it all.....

Mark

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 999
    • View Profile
I have seen some, at least three I have pictures of, 2 big blocks from Tonowanda by the series numbers, one allegedly an L78, one an L72, and one small block from Flint, that is probably a restamp becasue the numbers are not very straight, they are on two different lines, like the CE9 and the first 3 digits are on one line, and the last two are half a character width below and theres a larger gap between the 2 sets of numbers.  Neither set was in a gang holder when stamped.

Out of the list above we are leaving out the group of complete motors  from oil pan to intake manifold, with all the accessories that dealers would purchase for stock (like L78s and L72s).  These may the batch of engines that have no letter code in them.  Or they may just indicate the number cycle that they were on like some people think.  Theres really not enough info on the CE stuff, unless people have one in their car and they owned it when it was put in so they know for sure how much of the engine was replaced under warantee.  GM was not in the business of giving people a whole new engine if all you did was wipe a main bearing, and they could get away with giving you just a block, so not all CE engines came out of the factory as an engine.  One would think if GM needed a million CE components made in a single year from a single location, it wouldn't be a big deal to get a 7 digit code on an engine as opposed to a 5 digit code that they used if it was just a sequential number.
Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11

clm69z28

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
So what is your opinion of this stamp??

JohnZ

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
    • View Profile
So what is your opinion of this stamp??

Looks legitimate to me - made in calendar 1969, second round of the Flint V-8 block of numbers; mine is similar, but made in 1970 in the second round of the block of Flint numbers (CE 0A965 09).
'69 Z/28
Fathom Green
CRG

clm69z28

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
  Thanks for the reply- I was totally thrown off by the in the sequence code, and the hand stamping of the last two numbers. So you agree that the 9xxxx is a legitimate sequence number and that it was a Flint plant reference?  I only saw the Chevy bulletin info that refers to the original sequence of 20000 to 49999. And that would make the "A" a fitted block assembly which this engine appears to be? Learn something new everyday!

Kelley W King

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 375
    • View Profile
I have a CE L78, stamped CE974183, cast # 3969854, cast date F119
69 Z28 RS Scuncio Hi Performance
69 SS L78
67 SS Chevelle
64 Corvette
66 GTO Tiger Gold
77 Trans Am Special Edition

JohnZ

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
    • View Profile
  Thanks for the reply- I was totally thrown off by the in the sequence code, and the hand stamping of the last two numbers. So you agree that the 9xxxx is a legitimate sequence number and that it was a Flint plant reference? 

Yes. The second round number-block allocation added the A90000-A99999 block of numbers for Flint V-8.
'69 Z/28
Fathom Green
CRG

clm69z28

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
John;

Any idea when those second sequence #'s were produced?  Would they have been assembled much later than the May timeframe when the 618 blocks were used in the production run?
 

JohnZ

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
    • View Profile
John;

Any idea when those second sequence #'s were produced?  Would they have been assembled much later than the May timeframe when the 618 blocks were used in the production run?
 


I don't know - haven't researched it.
'69 Z/28
Fathom Green
CRG

GI JOE

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • View Profile
for what it is worth ... please read my post... http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1635.30
SFC GI JOE - Airborne Paratrooper
68- L-78, M22, BV
69- L-78, M22, BV, Conv