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Author Topic: Tranny Swap Issues  (Read 7259 times)
mikecio1
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« on: June 27, 2011, 04:21:06 PM »

Hello all, this seems to be the place to ask all those questions that other look at you dumb for asking  Embarrassed

Here is my issue.

I have a 67 rs. The car originally had a SB and manual transmission. Before I got the car about 10 or so years ago the person pulled that drive train out and installed a BB and a 350 tranny.
I decided that I am going to leave the BB in put replace the th350 with a muncie 4speed. I got the pedals in today and went to install the z-bar.
It seems the (BB)Z-Bar is about 1/4 to 1/2 too long.
I checked to make sure I had the correct bar and I do.
I have heard things about motor mount brackets being different sizes and z-bar sizes ? Huh
Any suggestions, ideas or theorys?

Anything would be appriciated
Thanks
Mike
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1968RSZ28
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« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2011, 04:30:49 PM »

Mike,

Do you know what transmission crossmember is in the car?  Small block and big block crossmembers are different.  Sounds like you might have the original small block crossmember.

Read this...   http://www.camaros.org/trans.shtml#Crossmembers

Paul
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vtfb68
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2011, 04:40:10 PM »

Mike,
 The motor mounts are also different. Big blocks are offset to the pass side. check both motor & trans mounts. The small block mounts will fit but the driverside will be too cramped for P.S. or headers.
  VT
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mikecio1
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2011, 06:25:16 PM »

VT, the drivers side headers have been modified (beat the heck out of ) to fit the drivers side header next to the steering box. The motor mounts look the same on both sides.
Would they have been able to mount a BB motor up to SB engine mounts?  Huh

Paul, it it the original SB one. from what I understand the SB manual mount would fit the th350 they installed.
If I get the BB engine mounts I need the BB crossmember because the engine will be off set?

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Stingr69
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2011, 10:39:39 AM »

BB engines are offset to the passenger side a little bit. The BB motor stands are different and would push the engine to the passenger side. Crossmembers are different, shifter mounting bracket and linkage are also different so the stick still ends up in the same place in the console.

You can continue to use the small block parts and fight the differences as is now OR go find the big block parts: crossmember, motor stands, mounts, bellcrank, shifter bracket, linkage etc. and swap them all out.

The starter, clutch, flywheel and bellhousing all need to have the same application in order to fit and work right but they can all be from any one application SB or BB. You can not mix and match these items.

-Mark
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mikecio1
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2011, 11:48:11 AM »

I have ordered all the BB parts to do it right.
The car does not have a console so the shifter just comes out of the boot on the floor, Moving it over a 1/2 inch does not look like it will be an issure.
Thanks
Mike
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1968RSZ28
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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2011, 12:52:39 PM »

Mike, please let us know how it turns out.

Paul
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mikecio1
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2011, 01:49:26 PM »

I will Paul.
I cant wait to have it up and running!
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mikecio1
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2011, 08:30:42 AM »

Pedals are in after having to find a new mount for them.
The engine is lifted to install the new frame mounts.
Updates to follow.

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mikecio1
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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2011, 07:03:16 AM »

The 4 speed swap is done.The recap is....
The car was originally a sb manual car, turned into a bb auto car. The mission was to install a 4 speed muncie. When installing the z bar for the clutch I discovered there was not enough room. After investigation and some help (CRG site and forum) I discovered that BB man trans cars had a different set of engine frame mounts. They moved the motor over about an inch this made room for the z-bar and the headers.
I called my contact at Ricks Camaro/Ecklers and we made a parts list. Engine Mounts, BB tranny crossmember (cause the holes are an inch to the pass side) and all the other goodies that went with it.
As you can see from the pics it was very time consuming but we finally got it all installed and it worked just fine. However instead of a stock shifter I used a Hurst Competition which moved the shifter over about an inch, so to my dis like I had to trim about an inch and a half to the tunnel in order to use reverse.
If you have any questions now is the time to ask me while it fresh in my head. I need to order the correct shifter boot, the one I have is way to tall. It makes the stick look short.
http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm295/mikecio1/4%20speed%20install/
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Sauron327
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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2011, 08:06:50 AM »

I don't remember the Hurst numbers required off the top of my head. But you did not have to cut the tunnel. 7's and 8's use the same stock shifter hole for auto and manual trannys.
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mikecio1
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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2011, 08:18:23 AM »

I don't remember the Hurst numbers required off the top of my head. But you did not have to cut the tunnel. 7's and 8's use the same stock shifter hole for auto and manual trannys.

I double checked with Ricks and I had purchased the correct Hurst kit for 67-68.
If I would have ordered the Muncie Shifter kit no cutting would be required. I can still center the boot so it looks like its in the stock location.
Either way its done now.
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mikecio1
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2011, 07:46:01 PM »

I don't remember the Hurst numbers required off the top of my head. But you did not have to cut the tunnel. 7's and 8's use the same stock shifter hole for auto and manual trannys.

I double checked with Ricks and I had purchased the correct Hurst kit for 67-68.
If I would have ordered the Muncie Shifter kit no cutting would be required. I can still center the boot so it looks like its in the stock location.
Either way its done now.

You had me thinking and I checked some more. You were right I could have found a Hurst off set. I was misinformed by sales. I should have researched more. I will be ordering the correct one, but before i do I am going to just try and find the bracket that makes it offset.
Thanks
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Stingr69
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« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2011, 03:03:55 PM »

I saw your other thread. The bracket part that you linked in the other thread (that Heartbeat City is selling) works ONLY for the OEM '69 Hurst shifter - not for the aftermarket Hurst shifter. The shifter you have now is probably for a "universal" application and it is causing you fitment issues.

I just did some checking and the shifter parts availabillity situation has gotten bad. Hurst has combined kits and eliminated many of the parts you used to be able to buy individually.

It just isn't 1968 anymore.  Wink

-Mark.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 03:21:09 PM by Stingr69 » Logged
Stingr69
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« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2011, 03:31:00 PM »

Mike,
Do you have "studs and nuts" holding the 3 shifter levers on the side of the transmission or are they all held on with bolts? The bolt-on levers style was a '69 and up Muncie setup and the studs and nuts was the 68 and earlier style.

If you have the studs and nuts, the '68 Camaro Hurst shifter may be right for you. If you have the bolt-on levers the '69 Hurst setup is what you want. The kits have changed a little recently and the stuff they are selling today is much more "universal fit".  The Big Block shifter mounting bracket used to be different from the small block mounting bracket and the linkage was all different.  I have no idea how well they fit now.

Hurst has made it "easy" for people in a bad way. It's a shame.

-Mark.
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mikecio1
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« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2011, 06:27:44 PM »

I saw your other thread. The bracket part that you linked in the other thread (that Heartbeat City is selling) works ONLY for the OEM '69 Hurst shifter - not for the aftermarket Hurst shifter. The shifter you have now is probably for a "universal" application and it is causing you fitment issues.

I just did some checking and the shifter parts availabillity situation has gotten bad. Hurst has combined kits and eliminated many of the parts you used to be able to buy individually.

It just isn't 1968 anymore.  Wink

-Mark.


Not 68??? That sucks!
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mikecio1
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« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2011, 06:29:07 PM »

Mike,
Do you have "studs and nuts" holding the 3 shifter levers on the side of the transmission or are they all held on with bolts? The bolt-on levers style was a '69 and up Muncie setup and the studs and nuts was the 68 and earlier style.

If you have the studs and nuts, the '68 Camaro Hurst shifter may be right for you. If you have the bolt-on levers the '69 Hurst setup is what you want. The kits have changed a little recently and the stuff they are selling today is much more "universal fit".  The Big Block shifter mounting bracket used to be different from the small block mounting bracket and the linkage was all different.  I have no idea how well they fit now.

Hurst has made it "easy" for people in a bad way. It's a shame.

-Mark.

I have a 69 Muncie ( I date coded it) it has the bolts not studs.
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Stingr69
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2011, 07:02:04 AM »

Mike,
One last thing to verify - Check the tailhousing casting number. It should be the 3857584 that fits the 27 spline output shaft and 5 threadded holes where the shifter attaches. 1970 and up used a different tail housing with only 3 shifter mounting holes (totaly different hole pattern) and a bigger output shaft. If it is the right '69 and earlier casting number on the tailhousing you want the '69 Camaro Hurst Competition Plus kit and it should all go together fine. That is the only kit that will work.

Hurst used to have separate install kits for BB and SB but that has changed recently. The original '69 Camaro kit required customers to re-use the original application specific GM shifter mounting bracket. Most other applications used a Hurst supplied universal bracket. At some point in time Hurst began including a 2-piece shifter mounting bracket assembly in the '69 Camaro kits. I think I have one of those 2-piece brackets out in my spare parts bin. It should be interesting to see what they supply these days because it looks like they cover BB and SB in the same kit.

-Mark.
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mikecio1
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2011, 07:59:54 AM »

Mike,
One last thing to verify - Check the tailhousing casting number. It should be the 3857584 that fits the 27 spline output shaft and 5 threadded holes where the shifter attaches. 1970 and up used a different tail housing with only 3 shifter mounting holes (totaly different hole pattern) and a bigger output shaft. If it is the right '69 and earlier casting number on the tailhousing you want the '69 Camaro Hurst Competition Plus kit and it should all go together fine. That is the only kit that will work.

Hurst used to have separate install kits for BB and SB but that has changed recently. The original '69 Camaro kit required customers to re-use the original application specific GM shifter mounting bracket. Most other applications used a Hurst supplied universal bracket. At some point in time Hurst began including a 2-piece shifter mounting bracket assembly in the '69 Camaro kits. I think I have one of those 2-piece brackets out in my spare parts bin. It should be interesting to see what they supply these days because it looks like they cover BB and SB in the same kit.

-Mark.

It is totally a 69 Muncie.

Thanks again for your help!
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mikecio1
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2011, 03:01:14 PM »

OK I did it right, (I hope) Fund the correct shifter and I believe its pretty close to were it suppose to be.
Thanks for all your help on this theard and the other I had posted to ask about a bracket
Bruce at Manchester Muncies was very helpful. Also Pete Serio was a world of infor too. Thanks you both and to everyone here on the forum who had input


Now on to the next project
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=8379.0
Thanks again
Mike
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 04:27:18 PM by mikecio1 » Logged
plumL78
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« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2011, 03:06:22 PM »

Not only do the correct mounts move it over to the right they also move it foward as a big block it about one inch foward. you may still need a longer driveshaft
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mikecio1
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« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2011, 04:44:31 PM »

Not only do the correct mounts move it over to the right they also move it foward as a big block it about one inch foward. you may still need a longer driveshaft

No problem there. It only brought it out about a 1/2 inch. And there was plenty of drive shaft still shoved in there.
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dutch
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« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2011, 07:58:29 PM »

Nice looking car Mike...

Off topic to some degree I grant you, but could you relate what the dimensions of your TT II's are - dia/offset/backspacing etc. and what your tire sizes as pictured are for my info, as I would like to get a similar second set of wheels and tires soon and whether or not you have any rubbing or issues with them rubbing or hitting anything on tight turns or bumps when driving with your set up?

Also the steering wheel you have looks like a Grant or ?? other make. Is it a smaller diameter than the original OEM type or does it fit with the same dimensions as an original wheel?

Any info you care to share is much appreciated  - Randy
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mikecio1
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« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2011, 05:39:11 AM »

Nice looking car Mike...

Off topic to some degree I grant you, but could you relate what the dimensions of your TT II's are - dia/offset/backspacing etc. and what your tire sizes as pictured are for my info, as I would like to get a similar second set of wheels and tires soon and whether or not you have any rubbing or issues with them rubbing or hitting anything on tight turns or bumps when driving with your set up?

Also the steering wheel you have looks like a Grant or ?? other make. Is it a smaller diameter than the original OEM type or does it fit with the same dimensions as an original wheel?

Any info you care to share is much appreciated  - Randy

Hi Randy, I got the wheels at wheelsforless.com
Product ID: VN5155761
Product Name: Torq Thrust 2.1 15x7 5/4.75 -6mm offset 3'76 backspace.
http://www.wheelsforless.com/detail.aspx?ID=5711
The tires are BFG 225/60/15 from Discount Tire Direct.Com
I have no rubbing issues at all. My friend went with 235 and had some inner fender issues up front on his 69.

Yes the steering wheel is a grant. It seems to have the same dimensions as the stock one. I never had the stock one so I couldn't tell you for sure. But when I look at others cars it seems the same. Since the pic I changed the center cap. Grant makes one that looks more like a stock cap. Its red white and blue around a bow tie.
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mikecio1
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« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2011, 06:47:18 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS3l-ZfBSWg

Quick Video after we were done
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dutch
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« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2011, 04:36:05 PM »

Mike thanks for the info, it is certain to be helpful - Randy
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matt540
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« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2011, 07:26:13 PM »

I kinda jumped into your project a little late, but I am doing basically the same thing you were, mine is happening because I put in power steering and I realised there was no way the steering box would fit with the BB sitting on Sb mounts.  My question is.....  did your exhaust come close to bolting back up? 
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mikecio1
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« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2011, 08:23:03 PM »

On the sb mounts the previous owner had dented the headers to make then fit with the power steering unit.
Once I put the BB mounts in there was all kinds of room.
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matt540
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« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2011, 08:48:34 PM »

I meant where the header bolts to tailpipe.  The BB mounts move the motor over AND forward, what happens to the rest of the exhaust system?  Mine seems to be in quite a bind when bolting everything back up.  I know the motor didn't move much but a little bit makes a real difference.
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mikecio1
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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2011, 05:13:00 AM »

My exhaust is on rubber hanger mounts. It is dual of course with a crossover (H) pipe.
I did not have any issues, I just pulled it up and bolted it together. I installed new header gaskets and used sealer.
No problems no leaks.
Good luck
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tmodel66
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« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2011, 07:13:04 AM »

Matt if you will loosen all your hangers so your pipes can move around a little bit it will help a great deal. It will let everything relax from the previous position and move to the new place it needs to be since the engine moved.
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Daniel  
'69 SS 350/4 speed  Fathom Green--POP
matt540
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« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2011, 10:23:51 PM »

Thanks guys, I'll give it a go
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