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| | |-+  Ideas to share concerning 1:18 '67-'69 GMP Penske Donohue Camaros.
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Author Topic: Ideas to share concerning 1:18 '67-'69 GMP Penske Donohue Camaros.  (Read 40365 times)
Swede70
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« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2011, 10:27:15 AM »

Greetings Jon,

Tried to strictly replicate cage informed by the photo image you modified and uploaded.  Could change the side bar detail to reflect integration of the side tubes as seen on the second car complete with tiny outrigger(s).  Plates for base of tubes not yet in position, but dimensionally it looks o.k.  Front tubes cut out and redone, with each forming the welding point of all structure spreading from them.  Hoping to fab. a trans. linkage access panel if that was seen across years.  Will be all but invisible beneath paint, but something obvious to add.  Thanks...




Mike K.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 10:31:37 PM by Jon Mello » Logged
Jon Mello
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« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2011, 12:44:11 AM »

Mike, it does seem that the color of the wheels on the '69 should ideally match the yellow used on the "Sunoco Camaro" lettering.

Your '67 cage is looking much more accurate now. One thought, I think the upright pieces of the main hoop should not be spread so far apart or maybe it's just that the rear angled support bars seem to be angled inward too much. There is some distance between the uprights of the main hoop and the inner part of the rear backseat area. It might be similar in that regard to the later '67 car, as seen below. The photo was taken in May '68. This may explain how the horizontal bar which runs next to the door in your model gets attached further out than the vertical part of the main hoop. A small "leg" extends over to the side of the body.


Photo by Craig Fisher
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 01:01:40 AM by Jon Mello » Logged

Jon Mello
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« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2011, 01:11:04 AM »

Mike, you might also watch this youtube video as there is a good view of the dash when Donohue bring the car into the pits at Daytona. Unfortunately, this is prior to the full roll cage being installed or it could have been even more useful to your model building cause.
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Jon Mello
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Swede70
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« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2011, 09:40:42 AM »

Greetings Jon,

Thanks again for the considered input.  New wheels, now finished with what is in essence the header paint employed before at are present drying in anticipation of my fitting them later today.  They will quite nicely match the Mission Bell 250 color photographs of the topic as seen in the '69 season issue of the Vintage Motorsports Trans Am retrospective.  Thanks for this 'shove' in the right direction.  Odd, for the model appears a bit denatured for the paler color choice, but correct it is. 

Wondering if I should just try to do a very faithful rendition of the very well documented cage in the second Camaro.  Reading The Unfair Advantage suggests that only in relation to GM instrumented testing did they begin to extend the cage out to stiffen the unibody outright, whereas some photographs show rather spindly support tubes set at odd and atypical angles heading back.  I surmised that they sited these tubes early season towards the rear subframe as it extended forward into the passenger's compartment, versus through the bulkhead and towards points at the end of each subframe rail.  It seemed that as the testing of the instrumented Camaro proceeded, that the configuration was revised for lessons learned.  I suppose I made a stab at the early non-reconfigured first build. 

Will likely blow apart cage to scratchbuild everything, and see especially to the bowed out side bar detail and attendant structure.  It will take a little bit, but what is seen will be captured.  Will revise tubing coming off back of main hoop to reflect what is seen in the photos you've kindly provided.  Thanks for the ESPN2 clip - love that.  Very kind regards...

Mike K.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2011, 03:00:25 PM »

Mike, if you are trying to replicate the '67 Marlboro winner, which I believe you are, then you don't want to copy the cage of the 2nd car. It's similar but not the same and as you pointed out, the roll cage bars do not extend into the trunk. I'd much rather see you keep what you have than go the other route.
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Jon Mello
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Swede70
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« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2011, 08:44:12 AM »

Greetings Jon (and to all who might look in),

Relieved in a sense that for splitting the side bars away from the '67 main hoop that needn't strictly refab. the same, noticing that the side outriggers angle forward a bit.  This saves me work, whereas jealous I've become with regards to recycling 'work capital' if you will.  Yes, I'll recommit to the original plan with regards to the cage.

Fitted new '69 model wheels to '69 car.  Though impossible to discern for the limits of the images provided, the castings look nice.  Seam detail is as seen on the actual wheels, forming at the base of the spokes where I mated the two halves of the urethane mold.  A discreet line/border is formed where the outer rim mates to the broader body of the rim much like the '69 Javelin images you kindly uploaded, whereas I tried too to create the round pads presumably cast into the wheel to afford options to tap an air valve.  These are a bit large of diameter, but not hateful.  The wheels finally look about right; i.e. not some exceedingly well finished billet item, not raw and evidently slipshod, but quality castings that are no more and no less than that.  Hub guides in place, lugs not.  Read teflon finish applied to same, tried to reproduce with gray paint.  Better then - thank you...

M.K.



...'stamped steel' valve covers in place too, albeit difficult to see.  
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 10:33:24 PM by Jon Mello » Logged
Jon Mello
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« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2011, 10:52:46 PM »

Mike, I think that's a good decision regarding the cage in the '67.

The '69 is looking very good. Lots of effort there and it shows. The wheels look nicer now that they match the yellow on the body although, truth be known, I think your first wheel color was closer to correct and the yellow on the body was a bit too light. Can't monkey around with that however so you did the next best thing. You must be working on a steering wheel as I don't see one in there. Glad to see that as the one GMP put in was not correct for '69.
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Jon Mello
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Swede70
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« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2011, 02:21:16 PM »

Greetings Jon,

Yes, steering wheel out, whereas not sure if I can do anything about the fact that the spokes aren't drilled like an actual Grant wheel.  Maybe small circles of black paint can be applied, maybe not.  Some decals exist on the market in 1:18 to redo the body lettering and such, but colors less rich, and in all probability, less accurate still; i.e. not much latitude to work there.  Neat options exist if the model was in 1:25th scale, whereas the dark body color meshed to bright graphics overlaid onto the same spells trouble.  Perhaps with time I could do my own graphics on a computer, printing same off on decal stock.  This is the future, and it is not yet.  Will probably stick with the wheel finish for the near-term.  Have five shades across a spectrum, although one hasn't been applied to a wheel outright and might surprise me if I were to experiment.  Beating down cognitive dissonance tendencies then!

May experiment with finding a local pinstriper of note to see if handwork of stripe outline might be done on a 1:18th shell.  For the '67, this would open the way to refinishing the model in a darker shade - good.  Trunk panel drilled through, although opening the resultant hole out further and introducing a somewhat oblong shape to allow the lid to clear the extended inlet will take a bit of time. 

Quick question - have you ever seen a '69 model Penske Camaro fitted with finned valve covers?  I have a shot from Michael Lamm's book The Great Camaro that shows an engine on the dyno being tended to by one half of Travers and Coon depicting a cross ram-equipped 302 Chevrolet so-outfitted, but otherwise nothing.  Since it seems I've done a Riverside entry, the question sort of hovers in air.  I hope to give back in the form of posting further books and magazines - soon I hope.  Thanks and with very kind regards...

Mike K.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2011, 03:31:19 PM »

Mike, you're in luck as the wheel used by Donohue in '69 has no slots or holes in the spokes. A view of the interior can be seen here.
The dash is natural aluminum and so is the air duct underneath. Is the dash currently gray in your model?

Thanks to Ron Lathrop, I will have some photos from the '69 "Wolverine" Trans-Am to post in the near future. There may be some pics there that will be useful to you.

I know the Traco engine photo of which you speak. Personally, that's the only time I ever recall seeing the finned valve covers on one of their engines and that was in their shop, not installed in a car.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2011, 07:48:44 PM »

Here's one from the '69 Wolverine Trans-Am that should be of use to you.


Photo by Ron Lathrop
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2011, 12:28:36 AM »

I continue to admire and respect the work and attention to detail that is put into these pieces of art that you create Cool.

The January 1970 Motorcade magazine shows the 69 Gregory camaro with a "Traco" 302 with the aluminum valve covers Grin.
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Robert Lodewyk
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« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2011, 12:32:00 PM »

Thanks Jon again for all that you do for myself and us/thanks Robert - I'll check my scattershot assemblage of Motorcade issues!,

Painted wheels again, but coats a bit heavy - will likely have to recast wheels.  So, I have two sets to experiment with different strength stripping agents - ah, accentuate the positive!  Thanks for the awe-inspiring close-in '69 MIS photography, neat to see the weird early-'69 front flares where if I recall correctly they intended at one point to run both power steering and larger section (if not 'rear') tires up front.  '69 GMP model came through with wrong interior trim level, not sure if I should try casting '67/'68 interior panels to create clones for my latter example.  Thanks for the corrective with regards to the 'non-drilled' Grant wheel.  I removed the overscale center, replaced same with a photoetched puck with subtler detail.  Not sure if I can find small enough hardware to at least capture the center upraised thread and nut detail.  Should be able to scratchbuild fresh air duct without too much trouble off model prior to fitting - all good this.

Yes, first posted shots of my '69 featured better 'footwear'.  Color better (standard GMP), plus lugs, plus wheel weights, plus tiny sections of duct tape to 'hold' same in place, in addition to decidedly better tires.  1:18 GMP Lola T70 dry weather Goodyears - very rare these are secondhand.  A little too low of profile up front, but much improved on the back.  1:18 GMP Trans Ams a bit too square concerning sidewalls, perhaps dimensionally oversized on the front, and a bit undersized on the rear.    

GMP Trans Am tires seem to match the tread profile RWR/ARA '71 Javelin poster Goodyear 'wets', whereas at some point I'd like to master a set of tires and come up with section/sidewall profile/indented tread combination I desire.  Ford and Chapparal-specific LXX Firestones with their unusual cantilevered sidewall construction and profile too would become possible.  Period Goodyear dry Blue Streak Sports Car Specials seem possible even without a lathe or laser-etching of the pattern, but this too is the future.  Thanks so much...

Mike K.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2011, 12:35:29 PM »

You're welcome. It is my pleasure to be able to help. I think we've all got a passion for the cars here and to see you replicate them in a smaller scale with accurate details is fascinating and relatively awe inspiring. I'm particularly enjoying the fact that I'm the one making suggestions and you're the one doing all the hard work! Smiley

With regard to the interior panels, are they deluxe rather than standard panels in the '69 GMP model? Mine are all boxed up. Standard panels for all three years are different, to varying degrees. I'm not sure how you do all this casting of wheels, panels and/or tires. That would be a fascinating side story in itself.

P.S. Yes, power steering was used on Ron Bucknum's car at Michigan but not the larger tires (to my knowledge).
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2011, 09:24:20 AM »

Greetings,

Conversation earlier had me ponder the efficacy of doing a Titus '69 Firebird backdated with select '68 parts.  The major thing would be to fit a wider 'beak' to the front clip, and somehow fit a '68 hood to a likely '69 shell.  Plugging the side air extractors (just trim anyhow), replacing the rocker trim and fitting a Camaro ducktail spoiler plus 302 Chevrolet power wouldn't be terribly hard - just what to do about the assumed fundamental mismatch of cobbled-together panelwork (in-period no less) across two diecast manufacturers?  

I feared that the 1:18 Yat Ming 1969 Firebird Trans Am and the 1:18 Lane 1968 Firebird tools would be about the least compatible diecast kitbash project on the planet, believing the former not very good at all, the latter, almost too good to render scrap.  Anyhow, somehow I purchased a Yat Ming '69, scrounged a Lane '68, scrounged another Lane '68 via eBay for not too much to give matters a go.  What is seen is just early work to prove it possible.  

Quite surprised to notice the Yat Ming and Lane dimensions are very close - the wider (by combining two bumpers - a weird appearance this subtle mod. affords the front of the topic) Lane '68 bumper 'stamping' blends well to the Yat Ming '69 shell, whereas shocked to discover that the hood will drop on essentially unmodified but for dreaded metalwork to cut away structure from the Yat Ming shell.  Hwy. '61 Camaro hinges would be best, a modified Hwy. '61 '69 Camaro chassis narrowed at the hip does seem quite possible, whereas an Al Bartz Chevrolet 302 would find a home within the engine bay.  Anyhow, a fun exercise as photographs suggest...

Mike K.


...the topic, seen at the Riverside Mission Bell 250 '69.  Photo image from Car Craft magazine - thanks Jon!


...still-wide extended grille (Hey! - now you know what a 'Pontiacntiac' is!), plus brief photo reference suggesting odd shape of modified front bumper.  Bumper is almost certainly fiberglass or aluminum on actual car, painted either silver or a very agreeable 'natural gas' shade of blue, while wheels are gray-painted Minilites.  Photo reference depicts topic as seen at first event of the '69 season held at MIS.


...a shock for fit of all items relative to each other doesn't suck.  


...rear bubble flares could be reused Autodynamics Challenger rear flare castings - I stopped at the half-way point prior to final shaping and saved the major work for possible use elsewhere - like here.  


...last shot, major metalwork to cut out.  Grille shell needs space to exist behind bumper, whereas all one sees is stout Zamac structure to support the '69 nose.  Grille shell and grille painted black, most mods. will be rendered invisible, whereas scrap resin Minilites quickly painted here just to afford a sensation of what the finished model might look like.  Front valence is '68 Lane, whereas the lowermost extension of the '69 Yat Ming front fender has been cut off to allow the use of the former.  Thanks for reading this...

Mike K.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 10:38:22 PM by Jon Mello » Logged
Swede70
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« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2011, 09:47:10 AM »

Hello,

'68/'69 Titus Firebird progress then.  Rear wheelarches ground away, resin flares of my own construction introduced.  Other minor body mods., this just a quick update. Structure behind grille now gone, hence path cleared for grille insert installation. Thanks...




...flares will shrink, becoming more gradual, etc. Rather like cutting hair; i.e. one can't cut it longer.  I mastered the same oversized, bending the resin castings to fit the Zamac shell for immersion within a bowl of heated water, alter wheel opening contour to suit, and file the outside contour to accurately blend the same into the application. The product of a single evening, although finish work is expected to run over a period of days/weeks.  

Thanks...

Mike K.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 10:40:01 PM by Jon Mello » Logged
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