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Author Topic: Engine photos  (Read 24084 times)
Jon Mello
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« on: May 02, 2011, 02:36:35 PM »

Anybody have some good Trans-Am engine compartment photos they would like to post?

Here's one of the Dick Guldstrand Dana-sponsored Camaro. Notice the spacers under the
thermostat housing, possibly to elevate the upper radiator hose away from the fan belt.
Click here for comments about the water pump pulley.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 10:23:24 PM by Jon Mello » Logged

Jon Mello
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« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2011, 02:11:54 PM »

Photo of the Penske Camaro's engine compartment, taken at Marlboro, MD, August 12, 1967.
This race was the first victory for the Camaro on the Trans-Am circuit. Mark Donohue and Craig
Fisher co-drove the car for this race. Notice the Bill Thomas/Douglass headers, painted yellow.


Photo by Andrew Keller
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2011, 02:55:28 PM »

Anyone know why they pulled the power brake booster on the Guldstrand Camaro?

I see both of the above Camaros utilized duct tape to protect the upper radiator hose from the alternator drive belt...   Smiley

Paul
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2011, 09:56:04 PM »

Guldstrand's car was not a Z-28, it was an SS350 pulled off the lot at Dana Chevrolet and made into
a pseudo Z-28 with the replacement of the 350 with a Traco-built 302, a flat hood and a pair of Z
stripes. It was a manual disc brake car originally and Guldstrand preferred that over the power
assisted brakes.

I'm seeing the outline of a curved piece of metal under the duct tape on the upper radiator hose of
Guldstrand's car. Unfortunately the Penske engine compartment photo is a little too grainy to fully
see what else may be on the upper hose besides duct tape but that's as good an image as I have.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 07:23:38 AM by Jon Mello » Logged

Jon Mello
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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2011, 10:17:49 PM »

Hello Paul,

Beyond what Jon said, I'd bet a majority of the early Camaro Trans-Am race cars ran without a brake booster.  Unless set up just right, assisted brakes lack the "feel" of a full manual set up.  With an over assisted power setup it can be too easy to lock the wheels under threshold braking.

Of course the Penske/Donohue Camaros made power brakes work, and so did some independents... but I still think the majority of the rest ran a full manual set up.  

-Chad


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Bruce302
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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2011, 02:59:21 AM »

One of my favorite engine bay shots. Taken by Dave Friedman, this shows the Chevrolet engine in Jerry Titus' '69 Firebird at Mid Ohio.
The twin Holley Dominators were perhaps a little large, and I understand that they were only used on this one ocassion.

The engines were built by Dave Billes' Performance Engineering Ltd, the company decal can just be seen on the front runner of the manifold.

There is plenty of other detail to take in for the keen eye.


Bruce.
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2011, 03:16:37 AM »

This engine shot (photographer unknown) is the Joe Miller backed, Paul Hecker  driven, # 19 '69 Camaro, better known as the (ex) University of Pittsburgh  car.
This pic was taken at Watkins Glen 1972.

Again, some neat details to be seen.



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Jon Mello
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2011, 05:42:35 PM »

Hey Bruce, thanks for posting the photo of the Titus engine. I'm kind of curious how the TG team was able to use that manifold and carburetor set-up. Was that something Pontiac had homologated on the proper SCCA forms or did the tech inspectors "look the other way" for that particular race? I assume they wanted to run this for a top-end boost and see how it performed against the Boss 302, which was also biased more toward top-end power rather than mid-range. Have you spoken with Dave Billes about this set-up?
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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2011, 11:09:54 PM »

Here is a copy of an SCCA recognition form for the "1968" Firebird. This version of the page only shows the manifold in question'



Another page shows the Edelbrock cross ram manifold. There was still a lot of rivalry between Chevrolet and Pontiac at this time, despite both being part of GM, they were competing for sales and market share as they would with Ford and Mopar.  T/G Racing had a friendly Chev parts man who would source the good racing parts for them, but if asked who the parts were going to, he would name one of the local Camaro racers.

This page shows the Edelbrock manifold

SCCA papers generously provided by Chad Raynal.

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Jon Mello
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2011, 12:20:37 AM »

Thanks, Bruce. Hey Chad, would it be possible for you to post the Firebird SCCA paperwork you have? I've never seen it before and would love to see more.

Here's a photo of Craig Fisher's 302 engine in his '67 Gorries "Black Panther" Z-28. This was taken during tech inspection for Sebring, late March 1967.
At Daytona in early February, the car had the power brake booster and the cowl plenum duct to the firewall but as you can see they have already been
removed and modified for Sebring.


Photo by Craig Fisher
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2011, 01:22:53 AM »

Here is a photo of the original '68 Penske Camaro's engine compartment. This is the one that started the '68 racing season at Daytona.
This photo was taken before Daytona. It shows a Camaro-style radiator rather than the Corvette aluminum one seen later that year. The
Bill Thomas headers are yellow like Penske's crew had painted them in '67. There are many other details to see but the big one is the
magnesium factory cross ram. I know the owner of a magnesium GM cross ram, most likely the only one made and the one that is seen
in this photo.


Photo by Ron Fournier
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2011, 12:37:45 PM »

Unbelievably cool photo.   Thanks Jon.

The rock guard with the perimeter frame that bolts to the radiator support is a very nice detail that also looks to be very well made.  Of course, given Mr. Fournier's fabrication skills, that's not a surprise.

Looking at the rock guard on this car brings me to another thought... It sure would be neat if Mr. Fournier took photos of the efforts to cut down the radiator support and droop the nose on these Camaros.

Thanks again,
Chad
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2011, 08:07:44 AM »

Did they try to section the rad supports to lower the front end profile? That would be trick...
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2011, 03:00:18 PM »

Did they try to section the rad supports to lower the front end profile? That would be trick...

Yes, that sort of thing (and other stuff too) definitely occured. I remember a conversation I had with Dan Lipetz, the current owner of the '70 Parnelli Jones Boss 302. He told me you can't take a stock '70 Mustang fender and hang it on the front of a (Bud Moore built) Mustang like his. It won't come close to fitting. He said you might as well be trying to hang a Camaro fender on it. His point was the fender was sectioned and modified to decrease the frontal area of the car and lower the nose. These sorts of changes occured less as you moved down the food chain from well-funded to low-funded teams.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2011, 03:09:54 PM »

According to the book Cherolet Racing Penske used a trick on his fenders too. They weren't allowed to add material for fender flares so they heated and stretched the metal. Also heated and bent the rear axle housing to get a little camber to, just Nascar does.
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Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2011, 04:11:51 PM »

Just a bit more on Jon's point about drooping and sectioning the front of these cars. 

With a Camaro, they sectioned or reduced the height of the radiator support and then had to deal with a few other issues that result (back of front fender to door gap, cowl interference to underside of back edge of hood, etc.).  But with a Camaro, the radiator support and inner fenders are removable for the modification effort.

With a '69 or '70 Boss Mustang, the inner front fender and radiator support are an integral piece of the whole front chunk of the unibody.  Therefore, the effort to section and droop the nose on the team Boss 302s was even more involved than a Camaro.  Many of the factory Boss 302s (Bud Moore and Shelby teams) had differing levels of droop with each car.  If any of the readers have a chance to attend a vintage race with the Historic Trans-Am cars, check out the droop on Brian Ferrin's Bud Moore Boss.  The droop is most noticeable if you happen to stand at the back of the hood to cowl union, and get down to back of hood height.  The drop off from that point to the front of the hood is quite severe, especially if you have a "standard" height front sheetmetal Boss nearby to compare it to.  A reasonable view of what I'm talking about on Brian's car can be seen here: http://historictransam.com/images/wc048967.jpg

And, so severe was the droop on this '69 Bud Moore Boss in it's initial debut (http://www.russoandsteele.com/vehicle-photo/Engine-Bay-Photo-Ford-Boss-302-Trans-Am-Race-Car/1164/1164-large.jpg), the fenders had to be notched around the doors because of the slope angle and design shape of this fender-to-door union.
 
-Chad
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2011, 10:46:11 PM »

This engine in Roy Woods' first ARA '69 Camaro appears to have a magnesium crossram too. Note the '67-'68 alternator placement.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2011, 11:16:00 PM »

Great shot, Jon! 

Though I'd read that Roy Woods liked to use Bartz engines, that oil fill cap on the 2-4-6-8 cylinder side valve cover is a Bartz signature piece as well.  The caps Bartz liked to use are a two piece, spot welded affair.  The "ears" portion of sheetmetal is spot welded to the cap, that then goes into the cammed bung/neck.  Though similar in appearance and function, this unit is a little different than the one-piece cap and ear items you see being sold today by ATL, Fuel Safe, etc.

Here's a shot of one of these old fill caps up close.

-Chad
 
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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2011, 11:43:31 PM »

The coil mount and fuel line coming out of the firewall on this RWR Camaro is very similar to the Titus-Godsall built 1969 Firebirds. 

-Chad
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« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2011, 04:33:32 AM »

You can also see the forward bars from the firewall to subframe, usually a trademark of Jerry Schwartz Titus Godsall cars, but he had a hand in the second Roy Woods Camaro from memory.

Bruce.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2011, 11:26:50 AM »

Roy Woods also used Bob Joehnck engines. I'm not sure if this is a Joehnck or Bartz engine. If someone was wanting to recreate covers like these, would either of you know where they could come up with the pieces to make a cap like that? It seems like it would have been something that was sourced from something else, not made from scratch.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2011, 12:25:48 PM »

Hello Jon,

The caps are no longer being made, but I have acquired a few, and would be willing to get them into the right hands. 

-Chad
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2011, 01:14:06 PM »

Very cool, Chad. I'm glad I asked the question.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2011, 11:01:39 PM »

This photo is of the Bud Turner '67 Camaro engine as seen in the "How to Hot Rod Small Block Chevys" book.
Notice the homemade cowl plenum air cleaner going the opposite direction of "normal". That's because this
car had a transmission cooler up in the top of the cowl on the passenger side so it was improvisation time.
Other items of interest are the Corvette radiator, the cut-down flex fan and the Z28 1x4 intake and valve covers.



This picture from "The Complete Chevrolet Book, No. 2" shows Bud Turner's '67 Camaro at the 1971 Riverside
Trans-Am, car #12. It changed from the white with black hood paint job of 1970 to a medium blue with yellow
nose stripe and yellow accents on the side of the roof and rear (but kept the black hood).
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2011, 10:03:04 AM »

Greetings,

This is from a MT/PP 1968 Yearbook (trying to avoid the copyright Thought Police then), featuring as it does season reviews of select racing series run across 1967.  No specific notice as to just what car is being inspected, but the cowl induction air pickup seems to match the '67 Marlboro photograph seen elsewhere in this thread.  Appalled to notice I've lost the same yearbook over the course of a mere 24 hours, hence desire to scan same and afford the reader a higher resolution image has for the moment been thwarted.  Thanks...



Mike K.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2011, 10:36:44 AM »

Thanks very much for posting that photo. I don't own that particular publication so it's a new one to me. Based on some things such as the chrome valve covers, the stock fuel line, the fan and fan shroud, and a lift off hood, I am confident that it is not the Penske/Donohue car. Just whose car it is though, I'm not sure. The air cleaner to the firewall was a General Motors part available to anybody and not something custom-made by the Penske team. If you are able to find the yearbook again, a higher resolution image posted here would be very appreciated.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2011, 03:05:56 PM »

Crude scanner didn't permit cropping/enlarging.  Better, whereas painfully tiny.  Will try again soon.  M.K.

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Bruce302
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« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2011, 04:46:27 PM »

Here is a pic I have had for quite some time, but unfortunately I don't know where it was taken or by who.

There are some unique features that should make it readily identifiable.

Bruce.


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Jon Mello
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« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2011, 10:51:52 AM »

Bruce,

That is the engine compartment of the first '67 Penske Camaro (the car that Mark drove through the first 8 races of the '67 season) but it is after the car went to Europe. I believe the photo may be from 1969. I received that photo from Jeff Barley in England. I'm not sure if you received it from the same source or if I may have forwarded it to you.

-Jon
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2011, 11:16:38 AM »

That's Ron Bucknum, driver of the #9 Penske Camaro. I think this is from the '69 Mid-Ohio Trans-Am race.


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Jon Mello
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« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2011, 10:49:08 PM »

If you look real closely over Bucknans collar on his jacket you can see the Traco logo on both the door and the toolbox of the ramp truck in the background. Grin
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« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2011, 12:01:46 AM »

Bruce,

That is the engine compartment of the first '67 Penske Camaro (the car that Mark drove through the first 8 races of the '67 season) but it is after the car went to Europe. I believe the photo may be from 1969. I received that photo from Jeff Barley in England. I'm not sure if you received it from the same source or if I may have forwarded it to you.

-Jon


Hi Jon,
i don't think I got anything like that from Jeff, We crossed paths on may forums and I have pics of his car but they didn't come from him.
 So this was the Camaro that suffered the trailering accident then ? It was rebuilt piece by piece according to Donohues book.  Reinhart is said to have taken it to Germany, has it been traced after that ?

Bruce.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2011, 08:56:30 AM »

Yes, this would be the car in the trailering accident (near Fernley, NV). Craig Fisher tells me he personally stripped the car after the accident per Roger Penske's instructions but he was not involved in any reconstruction and Mark's autobiography details how he measured the body and still found it to be square and thus convinced Roger to keep and rebuild it. It became the back-up car for several of the West Coast '67 Trans-Am races. It did go to Europe as you say but the trail of the car and it whereabouts goes cold after approximately 1972.
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2011, 03:08:56 PM »

Engine pictures of the Mark Donohue '68 Sunoco Camaro. This car has been owned for the last 25 years or so by Tom McIntyre.


Photo by Karl Ludvigsen


Photo by Karl Ludvigsen

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Jon Mello
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« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2011, 02:48:07 PM »

In the How to Hotrod Small-block Chevys book, there is this photo with a caption that says:

Penske/Traco 1968 Camaro with 2 x 4
bbl. carburetion draws air from fabricated
cowl vent. A close look at the photo re-
veals a lot. Safety wire on headers, nylon-
strapped plug cables, liberal use of steel-
braided-covered lines, senders for oil pressure
and water temperature. This is the type
of engine that was used in SCCA Trans Am
competition.



While it does appear to be the same engine as in the previous post, it doesn't have
the 2 x 4 carburetion. I believe this is the same car but from 1970 when driven by
Craig Murray in the Laguna Seca Trans-Am.
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« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2011, 11:23:56 PM »

I wonder if Mr. Murray had the motors looked over by Al Bartz.  The passenger side valve cover has picked up one of those Bartz signature oil fill caps.  I'm not trying to say that Bartz was the only one who used those fill caps, but they did show up on many of his creations.

Comparing how Tom McIntyre currently has the engine to the perhaps Craig Murray period, Tom runs a single four barrel.. and I believe a similarly shaped breather box/oil catch on the passenger side of the firewall.  Tom also appears to be running the later style (perhaps Craig Murray style) brake master cylinder.  Tom has the alternator on the passenger side of the car in this pic though.



Jon, thanks for bringing this How to Hot Rod... photo back to us.  I hadn't looked at it in quite a while.

-Chad
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2011, 12:42:41 PM »

Your welcome Chad, and thanks for posting a current photo of that same engine compartment. I'm not aware of which engine builder Craig Murray may have used but the engine appears to be Traco gray and Al Bartz painted his engines blue, from what I have been told.

It seems like the dimpling on the aluminum cowl plenum air cleaner duct is a direct result of Murray's usage of the different valve cover with the fill cap instead of the earlier one with the quick disconnect. I'm assuming he was using an oil cap and spout and the can needed more clearance.
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« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2011, 11:47:36 PM »

Indeed, the fill cap may not have any tie to Bartz... but his engines didn't always wear blue.  

The Bartz built factory McLaren engines, Chris Cord's DeKon Monzas, and several other customers chose other colors.

-Chad
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2011, 03:47:50 PM »

I posted this in the Chaffey College thread but thought a copy belonged in here as well. This is the engine in the Chaffey College Camaro. It was not run in Trans-Am until Paul van Valkenburgh bought it and by then the rules changed and it had to run with a single 4-bbl carburetor. The car is using Mondello ported heads, an Isky cam, Hooker headers and M/T valve covers. Notice that both carburetors are facing forward and the throttle linkage is thus on the outside of the driver's side carb.


Photo by Petersen Publishing, courtesy of Frank Dihartce
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« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2011, 09:31:45 PM »

It's a direct mechanical linkage instead of the bellcrank on the firewall, did the RACE cross rams not use the 6 cyl cable operated accelerator pedal?
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« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2011, 11:13:08 AM »

Yes, race teams did use the cable, but obviously some opted to do something different. Maybe some drivers thought they had a better pedal feel with the mechanical linkage.
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« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2011, 12:09:39 PM »

ODD that the drivers side carburetor in the above photo is facing forward. I don't ever recall seeing that before.
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« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2011, 03:54:00 PM »

Found this one on the Getty Images Site.

I have no idea which car this may be... 

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« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2011, 11:55:37 PM »

Late last week, Jon, Bruce and I went over this engine shot from the Getty image collection as well.

In short, we thought it was most likely an engine from a NASCAR Baby Grand (Grand-Touring) Camaro.

Jon's notes:

  • My feeling is the date is a default and is not truly Jan 1, 1968. It was probably taken in '68 but the date was unknown for sure so they just entered Jan 1.
  • It is a '68 (or '69) Camaro based on the creases around the wiper motor area.
  • Notice the upper a-arm is not a Camaro piece. The whole front suspension is Nascar or circle track.
  • Pin in the center of the hood is a Nascar thing also.
  • ISC Images is International Speedway Corp which is Daytona Speedway Archives.
 

And I noted the following about it's NASCAR-ness.
  • No inner fenders (at least not on the passenger side)
  • Single reservoir brake master cylinder
  • Altered front shock placement
 

Bruce stated that it could have been a Trans-Am car that had been converted to NASCAR Baby Grand/Grand Touring.


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« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2011, 01:10:51 AM »

The '68 Camaro engine compartment of Southern California's Andy Porterfield. These were taken around the time of the '69 Riverside Trans-Am.
Bill Thomas had a hand in building the engine for this car which was claimed to make 466hp at 7,400 rpm.




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« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2011, 02:05:52 AM »

COOL, another cross ram engine with the aluminum valve covers and perhaps Stahl headers. Grin

They mounted the coil just like I did when I first installed a cross ram back in the early 90's. Cool This will clear either original air cleaner base. However, the studs are missing from both carbs so they may not have used an air cleaner . Shocked

Wonder where that hose from the PCV valve goes? Appears they also used a mechanical fuel pump.
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« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2011, 06:44:31 AM »

Maybe the air filter was built into the bottom of the hood like the L88 Corvette hood ?
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« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2011, 02:27:07 PM »

Andy's car had the standard flat hood. I had not caught that it had no air cleaner studs. The headers are not Stahls, they are Bill Thomas headers. I can tell be the routing of the tube coming out of port #6 (third back on pass side) which goes further out to allow cylinder #8 tube to curve forward behind it.

Looks like the fuel distribution block has a line for a fuel pressure gauge coming out of it. The PCV hose routs back to the wiper washer bottle on the firewall which is being used as a puke tank.
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« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2011, 04:23:19 PM »

Photo of the engine compartment of the Larry Drover owned '68 Camaro which began racing at Daytona in the '69 season.
Original drivers were Larry Bock and Larry Dent.


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« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2012, 04:28:53 AM »

An engine compartment with so much to see can be found here.  This is the engine compartment of the Bruce Behrens Racing 1969 Camaro (driven by John Tremblay and Bill McDill) at the 1970 Sebring 12 hours.  Dave Friedman collection photo, recently posted by The Henry Ford Museum.

  • Crossram air cleaner, but a single four-barrel intake
  • Steel crossram hood, but with a prop rod like you normally see with the fiberglass crossram hood
  • Vacuum canister going to the master cylinder, probably helping to retract the pads for a brake change
  • TRACO remote oil filter mount on left side of engine bay
  • Funky alternator pulley
  • Quick disconnect fitting in valve cover (to add oil)

Many more great photos in the full set from the '70 Sebring event can be seen here.
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« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2012, 12:45:41 PM »

Engine bay photos from Motor Trend magazine. These shots were taken at the '69 Wolverine Trans-Am at
Michigan International Speedway. The first photo is believed to be the engine in Jerry Lagod's '68 Camaro.
(Jon Mello Collection)







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« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2012, 01:55:48 PM »

Trick gas?  Is this something Sunoco supplied to everyone or only a select few? (wouldn't surprise me}.

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« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2012, 03:10:35 PM »

Robert, I don't know what the reference to trick gas was all about. I don't think that was SCCA legal, whatever it was.
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« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2012, 10:20:12 PM »

Motor Trend may have been privy to some shop/dyno testing where fuel research was taking place; you know...in the name of science ;-)
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« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2012, 11:52:42 AM »

Seen previously in the 1968 Bryar Trans-Am thread, these great photos deserve to be included here as well.

Craig Fisher's Firebird engine compartment showing off its Al Bartz engine.

Ron Lathrop photo

Rusty Jowett's engine compartment on his '67 Z-28. This car was completely destroyed in a rollover accident at Watkins Glen one week later.

Ron Lathrop photo

The engine compartment of Peter Revson's Javelin.

Ron Lathrop photo
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« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2012, 08:32:29 PM »

I've never seen that Javelin picture before.....but its a crossram, so its a 1968 car....1969 Team cars ran the tunnel ram.   

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« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2012, 10:04:05 PM »

Craig, I thought the '69 Javelins only used the tunnel ram in conjunction with the special heads at the Michigan Trans-Am race. When those heads were disallowed after that race, I assumed the tunnel ram also went away. You're saying that's not the case and the tunnel ram was used during the entire '69 season?
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« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2012, 05:48:54 PM »

Hmmm,  well, no I am not saying that.... sorry.  Undecided  I still haven't figured out if they used the tunnel ram all season or not.  According to Kaplan, the killer block wasn't homologated, so it didn't see much use, except Michigan.  I'm assuming that since they used the bulged hood all year, that they used the tunnel ram.  Also, this car has the original trunnion front suspension.  Notice the lack of the "Ford style" caps on top of the shock tower.  In 69, the black caps were on the towers, and the front suspension was a bit better.  It is also noted that this is "Revson's car"...he drove in 68.  I also see a PRODUCTION AMC radiator.

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« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2012, 10:53:37 PM »

The three photos from Bryar were taken in early August 1968 and with that in mind and the Javelin having red paint on the front of the car (as opposed to blue), those were the reason's I chose to ID it as Revson's. Follmer's car would have been blue on the front with the red being on the rear. I believe you have spoken with Kaplan, correct? Does he not recall whether the tunnel ram was used for the entire '69 season?
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« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2012, 10:08:10 AM »

Correct....Kaplan barely even remembered the tunnel ram.  We showed him several pictures before it finally 'clicked' in his head.  "I'd forgotten all about that!!"  was his words.  He has a good memory of the short deck block, however.  I don't think the heads were particularly special though.....the block is where the real 'detail' was located.  With some spacers, the intake will go on a factory block/head package.

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« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2012, 11:39:27 PM »

Thanks for the insight. Hopefully we'll turn up more engine pictures as we go along and we'll get a better idea of how much that tunnel ram got used in '69. Do you know anybody that owns one of them?
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« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2012, 11:43:36 AM »

Yes, I do!!  In fact, it will be on display this weekend up at the big Corvette/Musclecar show in Chicago.  There are a pair of sand-cast Dominators sitting on top of it!!!  Rumor has it that Kaplan may be there too.

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« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2012, 02:28:40 PM »

Terrific! Would you please post some pics of the manifold and carbs in this thread when the show is over?
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« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2012, 08:10:29 PM »

My brother is slightly mistaken as to the type of Dominators on my Kaplan tunnel ram..... Mine are not sand cast, but die cast..  Holley list #6214..... The sand cast one are SUPER rare, basically hand-made, very porous, and actually don't work very well due to these inconsistencies.... I believe the two Boss cars that do run the twin Dominators also use the later produced die-cast 6214's....... I talked with one of the Ford gurus who was very instrumental in getting one of them running, he told me that the 6214's were the ONLY way to go.... I sure hope displaying my induction setup jars somebodies memory on a Kaplan low-deck block..... that's all I need... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2012, 11:03:03 PM »

Where does Holley put the list numbers on a Dominator carb since they don't have a choke tower on them?
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« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2012, 11:30:30 AM »

List #'s on mine are stamped on the "floor" of the main body just inside of the air cleaner retaining lip...  I just took a really good pic with my phone, but I'm not having any luck with technology right now.... will post when my brain functions better.. Smiley
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« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2012, 08:31:28 PM »

Do the sand cast carbs have thicker base plates where the studs go through than the cast versions?
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« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2012, 11:08:15 AM »

List #'s on mine are stamped on the "floor" of the main body just inside of the air cleaner retaining lip...  I just took a really good pic with my phone, but I'm not having any luck with technology right now.... will post when my brain functions better.. Smiley

You can send the pic to me at jon.mello "at" verizon.net and I can post it for you if that makes things any easier.
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« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2012, 06:19:27 PM »

Here's a current auction on eBay for some 6214 carbs, with some good detail images of where the list# is located.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Early-Pro-Stock-Holley-Carburetors-LIST-6214-/290776359798?hash=item43b39f2376&item=290776359798&pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

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« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2012, 12:46:56 AM »

Thanks, Chad.

I don't know why I didn't think to look on ebay...
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« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2012, 01:01:46 PM »

1969 Penske Camaro engine compartment.
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« Reply #71 on: November 24, 2012, 12:22:52 AM »

Tunnel Port 302 engine in one of the '68 Shelby Trans-Am Mustangs.



Here's what the official production (which never happened) Tunnel Port 302 engine was going to look like.
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« Reply #72 on: November 24, 2012, 05:47:17 PM »

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« Reply #73 on: November 24, 2012, 05:48:59 PM »


This is the Smokey Unick car but it has a mini plenum on it instead of the dual dominators. You can see the taped over holes in the air box for the two carb studs.
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« Reply #74 on: November 24, 2012, 07:17:38 PM »

Didn't Smokey paint his engines gold?

Here's another '68 Shelby tunnel port 302. Very similar shot to what I posted above.
Notice the location of the hood pins in the previous photo compared to this shot.
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« Reply #75 on: November 24, 2012, 11:36:24 PM »

There is a picture of Smokey's engine on The Ponysite form 1969 and the motor is blue. Maybe just the Chevy motors were gold. As for the hood pins the second picture has them where the stock hood bumpers would go. I know that is a stronger mounting point compared to the top of the rad support lip which you can flex with your hand. Not really sure if that is why they moved them, just guessing. The aluminum air boxes are a work of art!
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« Reply #76 on: November 25, 2012, 01:06:49 AM »

I didn't realize the Mustang radiator support is semi-flimsy at the top. On a Camaro, that area is strong and not flimsy.
I can't think of a Camaro that did not mount its hood pins in a place other than on the radiator core support.
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« Reply #77 on: November 25, 2012, 01:49:49 AM »

The top is only 1 layer of sheet metal with a little acid dipping thrown in. The pictures are of my car that I am working on. I reinforced the top lip of the rad support. Some 69's had the pins inward like mine, mostly the Shelby cars and some outward near the fender like the Bud Moore cars.

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« Reply #78 on: November 25, 2012, 03:49:19 PM »

Thanks for the pics of your car and in particular for showing us the radiator core support and how you have beefed up the area around the hood pin. Nice touch on the opening for the radiator too.
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« Reply #79 on: November 26, 2012, 11:27:01 AM »

In regards to AMC intakes at the 2012 MCACN show, Jon Mello posted:


"Terrific! Would you please post some pics of the manifold and carbs in this thread when the show is over?"

Several of us have interest in the Javelins and hope we can see some photos. I received one photo from a friend in attendance,as follows


I recognize the crossram on the right, but maybe Klvn8r or Crazyamc can confirm what is shown on the left.
Thanks,
Bob
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« Reply #80 on: November 26, 2012, 12:16:57 PM »

The tunnel ram and Dominators are mine. I loaned them to a good friend to display at the Chicago show..  I also included a picture of Kaplan's team under the hood at the first race in '69, ( Michigan ) and a print of the intake with the listed AM part #....   My hope was to clarify that these parts did indeed exist, were actually raced, in hopes that I can track down the piece of the puzzle I'm missing- the low-deck block....   The individual runner intake will only work with the special 6214 carbs....  all fuel metering is completely different and all 8 barrels open at once, ( think Webers or sprint car injection)...   Ronnie Kaplan has several references to building a 5/8 inch shorter deck block for '69.. This intake is exactly 1 inch narrower across the valley; 5/8 of an inch off of the deck height of an AMC requires a 1 inch narrower intake... Wink   Chicago is home for Kaplan and close to Kenosha--  somebody has to know something...     Ken
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« Reply #81 on: November 26, 2012, 01:55:59 PM »

My hope was to clarify that these parts did indeed exist, were actually raced
Ken, I wish you well in that quest, I'm sure something will come of your display, and of course here on this forum, the "Best" source of accurate period correct information!
Do you have any casting numbers or stamps left on the intake? The small photo I posted doesn't show much, but it looks to be pretty heavily modified. Back in the day(and even some now) alot of engine builders would have to cut the intake to head surface back and use plates to get a better transition from the intake runner to heavily modified heads. This was especially common with the Pro Stocks with their welded heads to achieve the port sizes they needed.
    I believe the later Wally Booth Pro Stock engines used an intake of this nature.  Do you have any history on your particular intake? It looks like it could be one of the Booth variety. Those runners look like they have been shortened (correct me if I'm seeing wrong) but are still awfully long for road race responsiveness.
I should have some photos in my collection of the Booth engines, I'll try to post them.
Bob
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« Reply #82 on: November 26, 2012, 03:59:39 PM »

Ken, Good luck on your search. I know a some of the Kenosha crowd was at the show in Chicago as both the Wally booth Pro-Stock cars were there, and are based in Kenosha. Im sure word is spreading. There is some crazy AMC stuff stashed away in south-eastern Wisconsin.

Some speculate that Roberts (OG69Z) Traco intake, rather than the tunnel ram was used by AMC later in the 69 season. But from pigpens comments in an earlier thread that may not be the case. Also note that the bulge in the hood is wide enough to accommodate an airbox on top of the cross-ram intake. Note the room constraints on the cross-ramd 68 Javelins. Id bet there wasnt much more than 1 inch between the carb top and the hood.
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« Reply #83 on: November 26, 2012, 06:20:15 PM »

Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to arrange some of the pics into one post, but for now, here is a little more info;  1. yes, my intake has been modified; most of the carb mounting pad had been machined off, I don't know why.  2. my intake has absolutely no casting #'s, marks,stamps, nothing.  3. it has never been bolted down 'tight' to an engine, ( no washer markings)...   There is a youtube video listed as "Trans Am 1968", even though it is clearly the 1969 season, I believe at Donnybrooke. There is about a 5 second piece that shows John Martin CLEARLY stroking the throttles on two inline Dominators..    Later Pro Stock gurus all tried to make IR Dominators work with no success, and all written articles said the same..  a 2" throttle will barely feed a ~500hp application.  360 cid Pro Stocks were probably close to 600 or better.  I have seen pics of this intake with a "plenum adapter" on top, making for an extremely tall induction; again, probably too long of runner for a drag motor.  Slabbed and sectioned Pro Stock heads like Booth, Arons, and Maskin and Kanners required major welding and epoxy-  and most used the Edelbrock UR-18...    My intake will never look completely original, and the fab work was not finished in time for the show, but it is a true T/A piece.   I'm sure the crossram would have enjoyed a taller air cleaner, but one pic I've seen of a domed hood on a crossram Javelin still carries the super-flat airbox...   I do appreciate all the discussions, tips, and ideas...  ya'll are the best..    Ken
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« Reply #84 on: November 26, 2012, 07:27:54 PM »

Here's a link to the youtube video you're talking about. You're right that it is from Donnybrooke in 1969, not 1968.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr6U4_2PgPE

The link below shows the second part of the Donnybrooke video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn0OOSQPXT8
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« Reply #85 on: November 26, 2012, 07:59:47 PM »

Here is a little bit of Dominator carb info.
http://www.boss302.com/smf/index.php?topic=47196.msg305021#msg305021
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« Reply #86 on: November 26, 2012, 08:12:17 PM »

Some more
http://www.boss302.com/smf/index.php?topic=51912.msg333754#msg333754
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« Reply #87 on: November 26, 2012, 08:37:31 PM »

We have plenty of pictures of the Booth, Arons, and Maskin/Kanners intakes and even the WIBG pro stocker Gremlin.  Most of those are extremely modified and were of the Edelbrock UR-18 variety.  I even have a captioned picture of a Weiand  "channel ram".....but Weiand claims no such intake was built for an AMC.  If I'm not mistaken, the AMC drag racers were sectioning the cast iron heads, making the ports even taller than could be cut from a factory head.

There is a pro-stock intake here in Texas, as well as some of the pro stock heads in another area.

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« Reply #88 on: November 26, 2012, 10:10:49 PM »

This is great research!  Some good links from 1109RWHP, Thank You! Good photos of the Dominators too.
 
I don't think anyone can question  the existence of the Dominators in the still photos that have been posted by Jon. I personally don't even doubt the fact that Mr. Kaplan may have tried running a drag race designed tunnel ram. Not being disrespectful in any way,  his engine building skills have never been the pinnacle of his racing legacy. Apparently it wasn't the "cat's meow" , especially as klvn8r stated "Kaplan barely even remembered the tunnel ram". It seems it would have been a high point in his recollection if it had worked out.

Either way, as Mike343sharpstick has pointed out, that hood bulge is huge and wide. I think its likely there were many different intake/carb combinations tried under that hood, including the crossram. Ken's manifold appears to definitely be another obscure piece of AMC history, but I'm not convinced we can be certain that "it is a true T/A piece" as Ken stated. At least with what has been presented. The following photo  shows a manifold which appears to be like Ken's used in a  Pro Stock. This certainly doesn't rule out it being used previously in a Javelin, but it might help answer why it had been modified so extensively.    (sorry, unable to credit its source)

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« Reply #89 on: November 26, 2012, 11:30:09 PM »

This is the link I was originally looking for. Too bad the first phot will not load. Good picture of the BIG air box.
http://www.boss302.com/smf/index.php?topic=46746.0
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« Reply #90 on: November 27, 2012, 12:04:43 AM »

Thanks for the informative stuff on the Ford and AMC goodies. The Dominators are a pretty intimidating sight
and it's a little surprising that Chevrolet didn't make an attempt to run a similar set-up. Actually, they were run
on a small block Chevy, just not in a Camaro. As posted by Bruce302 previously, the Titus/Godsall Firebirds were
still running the small block Chevy engines in '69 and Pontiac homologated a special tunnelram-style manifold to be
able to use the Dominator carbs. They didn't run this set-up on a continual basis but did run it at St. Jovite in '69.
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« Reply #91 on: November 27, 2012, 12:13:41 AM »

Chad (OCTARD) posted this previously but it gives another view of the Pontiac manifold
for use on the small block Chevy with Dominator carbs.
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« Reply #92 on: November 27, 2012, 04:12:03 PM »

Robert L pointed out to me a "Smokey Yunick 302" on ebay. Here's the link in case anybody is interested in it.
Neither of us know the seller or anything else about the engine other than what's posted in the auction.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Smokey-Yunick-Z28-302-Chevy-Chevrolet-AUTHENTIC-COMPLETE-ENGINE-/121029763632?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item1c2defa230&vxp=mtr
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« Reply #93 on: November 27, 2012, 04:13:19 PM »

Below is the certificate which accompanies the engine.
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« Reply #94 on: November 29, 2012, 05:36:12 PM »

   I was at the Chicago show with my Yenko Stinger Canadian Prototype ( which had high score of the show, 998 /1,000 points )   I was near the AMC display, but had little time to look at the cars and parts. Have always liked AMC underdog status.
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« Reply #95 on: November 30, 2012, 09:57:41 AM »

My brother and I spent two days visiting and interviewing Ronnie Kaplan this summer. He's 90 years old, was in a major auto-pedestrian accident in the mid 60's...  (Al Holbert crashed through a barrier, skidded through the paddock, striking Ronnie and launching him 50 feet into the air; he landed on his head, and most thought he was dead or soon would be...  " Yeah, I was a little loopy for a few years.. Wink "- Ronnie Kaplan...        At 90, with his history, I wouldn't expect anyone to remember very many details. The details he did cover were very vivid, correct, and documented by recordings.  After a few minutes and a couple of pictures, some showing the difference in width to a normal intake, then the Donnybrooke video, we watched the "light" come on for Ronnie.... " A Goodyear guy tipped me off about what Holley was building for Ford.. I demanded "equal parts" or there would be hell to pay.. " RK.  His low-deck '69 block is described in several publications, as the masterpiece of his collaboration with Dave Potter, the designer of the original modern AMC V8...    In my research, which has been limited, I am sure this block and IR intake was run at the first race of Michigan. The Donnybrooke video also confirms they were still using the intake and carbs, but since the special low-deck block had been declared illegal much earlier, I personally doubt it was being run still.  John Martin had also stated that several races were lost due to not having the block..  My point is, if you're casting an intake from scratch, you don't make a piece that needs adapters. The intake CAN be run on a regular V8 with 1/2 inch spacer plates; I would imagine this was probably done at some point in the season..  The earliest Dominators were the 'sand-cast' ones for the Boss 302; as the drag racers and other engine guys started getting their hands on the IR style carbs, much confusion and mis-application, mostly from bad information from magazines and Holley caused a lot of problems..   My intake may have been well on its way to being morphed into a true drag race tunnel ram, but I assure you, it started out as AM 4488023...  Ken
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« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2012, 02:49:58 AM »

Ken, thanks for posting some of what you learned from Ronnie Kaplan. It would be great if you could post the whole interview either on this forum or an AMC forum where we can read it in its entirety.

Mark, that's a very impressive score for your Stinger prototype. If you are so inclined, would you post more about the car (and some photos) in the Corvair thread I started? Here's the link...
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9700.0
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« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2013, 12:19:22 AM »

A pretty decent look at the '69 Javelin engine compartment showing the big airbox for the 2x4
tunnel ram. This is from the April '70 issue of CARS magazine, courtesy of Mike K (Swede70).

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« Reply #98 on: January 17, 2013, 07:19:13 PM »

That is the best picture I have seen yet.
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« Reply #99 on: January 17, 2013, 07:21:11 PM »

I see alot of the race motors running the belts with the yellow? stripes on them. What's the story with the belts, were they a performance belt and who made them?
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« Reply #100 on: January 18, 2013, 12:21:58 AM »

I see alot of the race motors running the belts with the yellow? stripes on them. What's the story with the belts, were they a performance belt and who made them?

Those are called "outside mass' racing fan belts and Dayco is the name of the manufacturer that made them. I suppose other companies like Gates may have made a special racing fan belt too but I know Dayco had the stripes on them. I'm pretty sure I remember the stripes being white though.
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« Reply #101 on: May 07, 2014, 08:08:54 PM »

A couple photos of NOS Dayco belts as used on the Tom States A/S Camaro. The short belt is a Dayco part #33-4-3. It connects the water pump to the crankshaft only. This size is for a short water pump and factory pulleys for the 68 Z/28. The stripes are indeed white.


This longer Dayco belt is part number 43-2-3. It runs from the crankshaft to water pump and to the alternator. Again using factory pulleys.
Robert

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« Reply #102 on: May 07, 2014, 10:30:56 PM »

          Here is picture a of my partner Dennis and I putting the finishing touches on our race motor....... The cross-ram manifold that had just been released at the time was an easy bolt on for at least 50 hp. Not show in the picture was our crankshaft belt drive pulley that was reinforced due to cracking issues with the stock unit. In hindsight I think that the alternator location way up on the left header was poor as it necessitated the use of a extremely long fan belt, not the ideal scenario .
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« Reply #103 on: May 08, 2014, 08:41:26 AM »

Cool picture, Al. I guess if you could not afford a real Traco engine you could at least afford a can of gray paint to give the same look.  Grin
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« Reply #104 on: May 08, 2014, 09:05:33 AM »

Can someone more tech saavy than me post some of these engine pics?   https://revslib.stanford.edu/catalog?f%5Bpub_year_isim%5D%5B%5D=1969&page=2&q=trans+am&utf8=%E2%9C%93      Of most interest, of course, is the dual IR Dominator AMC.... with the spacer plates for a standard deck block.. Remember, this is Donnybrooke, not Michigan..   LOTS of details can be found if you go to the trouble of zooming in...   expand icon, thumb, zoom, "+"....    First picture I've also seen of a dual throttle cable Boss....  Ford guys say this setup was to blame for the Kwech crash at Michigan. Shelby mechanic Don Araki then came up with a mechanical set up; Bud Moore continued with the cables...consensus is that the dual cables never work right do to synchronization problems, (varying cable stretch.. )........ Don't waste DAYS on this site like me, literally thousands of photos!   Enjoy!  Ken
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Trans m
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« Reply #105 on: May 08, 2014, 06:45:01 PM »

Can someone more tech saavy than me post some of these engine pics?   https://revslib.stanford.edu/catalog?f%5Bpub_year_isim%5D%5B%5D=1969&page=2&q=trans+am&utf8=%E2%9C%93     
Normally I could help ya, but the pictures are not "hosted" the same way as they are on other sites, and I cannot figure out how to post them elsewhere.


In other words, you're out of luck (for now). Sad
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satman
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« Reply #106 on: May 08, 2014, 09:58:02 PM »

Open the image right click on it then click save ............

AL
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cook_dw
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« Reply #107 on: May 09, 2014, 06:43:37 AM »

Or right click and copy image url and then click the little insert image tab just above the reply box options (will have to go to preview to see the options) and right click and paste the image url

[  ]https://stacks.stanford.edu/image/cg166tj9089/2011-023LUDV-1969-b1_41.0_0017_thumb[/img]



Add the "img" to the front of the url between the 2 brackets.








Hopefully that makes sense and helps. Smiley
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Darrell Cook

1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28
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« Reply #108 on: May 09, 2014, 10:22:18 AM »

here are some I saved from the Sanford Rev library
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #109 on: July 17, 2014, 08:33:30 AM »

For anyone who cares about such a detail, the radiator cap on Donohue's '67 was a Balkamp item.


Photo by Andrew Keller
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #110 on: July 17, 2014, 09:17:49 AM »

The pressure relief caps were a better design than the factory cap.... Smiley
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
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« Reply #111 on: July 18, 2014, 09:35:25 AM »

That's a cool find Jon.
Will that cap be used on the Johnny Moore Camaro?

Robert
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