Author Topic: Headers  (Read 40747 times)

Jon Mello

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Headers
« on: April 19, 2011, 10:19:28 PM »
Headers, of course, were used on the Trans-Am cars back in the day. Probably any kind of header
under the sun was tried at one time or another. Starting in June, 1968 when Jere Stahl sent off
his first set of road race headers to Roger Penske, Stahl headers were some of the best performing
and most popular headers in use among Trans-Am teams.

Here's a nice set of restored Stahl headers owned by Robert Lodewyk. Jere Stahl tells me these
are the drag racing version of his Camaro header.


A closer look at the header flanges. Same header flanges used by Douglass Muffler Mfg.


Robert Lodewyk also owns this set of original Stahl road race headers which came off the '67 Trans-Am
Camaro raced by Hugh Harn, who raced out of the San Francisco Region of the SCCA.


Here's an original '69 advertisement for Stahl headers.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2011, 02:57:00 AM »
Thanks Jon for posting these pictures.

My car as well as Hugh Harns 67 Z ran in the Sears Point race in September of 1969. Its quite possible that these headers were on Harns car at that time. Now 40+ years later they will be on a car it run against back then---Kinda COOL :)
Robert Lodewyk

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Re: Headers
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2011, 03:36:23 PM »
These are the factory-supplied GM headers for the '67 Z-28 Camaro. Ron Ogilvie, parts manager for
Bill Thomas Race Cars circa September '66 - August '69, tells me that these headers were designed
at BTRC and built by Douglass Headers (Douglass Muffler Mfg). Ron says that he personally painted
the headers the silver-blue color and placed each set in a burlap bag for delivery to GM. These headers
were probably the most commonly seen headers on Trans-Am cars up until Stahl started providing
Camaro racing headers in mid-'68.


Photo courtesy of Dick Lewis


Photo courtesy of Dick Lewis





Factory supplied instructions on how to do the installation. The headers were furnished "loose" and
it was up to the dealer or owner to install them. No headers were installed on the assembly line.




Here's an original set of GM header gaskets. The heat resistant material is Raybestos-Manhattan No. A 56.


Pages from the Douglass catalog.







Here is an April '67 ad for Camaro small block headers by Douglass.
Most of Douglass' advertisements showed big block Chevy headers.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 12:41:38 AM by Jon Mello »
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Re: Headers
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2011, 04:32:28 AM »
1967 Douglass Header catalog. (Jon Mello Collection)







Camaro header, top left, H 509-DU.




« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 06:04:36 AM by Jon Mello »
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Re: Headers
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2011, 03:49:04 AM »
A little intro from Bill Thomas, found in his '70 catalog. There are probably not enough superlatives to say
about this man who did so much for Chevrolet performance back in the late '50's and throughout the '60.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2011, 03:22:47 PM »
Michigan-based Kustom Headers became the supplier of Z28 headers to GM starting in 1968.
I don't know if it was based strictly on cost but certainly that probably factored into the
equation. The most high-profile team to use Kustom Headers were the "Chaparral" Camaros
of Jim Hall.


Close-up view of a GM part number on the header flange. For some reason there are a few
different GM part numbers for these Kustom-built headers. These were also available direct
from Kustom and those are stamped KH-37 on the flange.




Some Kustom header flanges are squared-off on the ends and some are pointed.
There does not appear to be any clear reason why. Note the 4-bolt collector flanges.




Info provided in the '68 Z28 brochure. Note the different part number(s).


From the 1974 Kustom Headers catalog...


Here's Gene Harrington's '69 T/A camaro sporting a Kustom Headers decal
on the front fender, behind the front tire.

Photo: Mike Jarchow Collection
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Re: Headers
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2011, 11:22:26 PM »
great stuff -thanks for posting

In the Stahl ad they mention Tony Pizzi and Don Yenko

Tony ran the 1967 drag car sponsored by Yenko Sports Cars

I think this was an early Z/28 as later in 1967 Yenko sponsored Dick Harrell in a 427 Camaro

They mention Don's Daytona win which was the 1969 Citrus 250 Don won in a ex Smokey Yunick 68 Camaro

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Re: Headers
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2011, 04:46:31 AM »
Here are several pages from the 1971 1/2 Kustom Headers catalog, courtesy of Frank Dihartce.

































« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 05:21:34 AM by Jon Mello »
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Re: Headers
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2011, 04:26:49 PM »
Nearly 20 years ago, Dick Lewis from Ohio went to the effort to get 25 sets of Bill Thomas headers reproduced
using 25 sets of original upper header flanges that he had acquired over many years of being in the Camaro
hobby. There was talk of producing another 25 but the second set was not going to have the original upper
flanges. I am not sure if those 25 got made or not. These headers were copied directly from the original set
which are currently owned by Rick George of Rick's Camaros. Years later, Larry Christensen also reproduced
an unspecified amount of these headers. The headers below are from the first set of 25 reproduced by Dick
Lewis and were sold to Frank Dihartce. Thank you Frank for sharing these photos with us.









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Re: Headers
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2011, 03:55:09 PM »
A Spring 1969 ad for Stahl Headers. That is Jere Stahl himself standing on the fueling tower at the upper right
of the Penske pit stop photo.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2011, 05:25:36 PM »
1969 ad for Douglass Headers. I don't think they stayed in business beyond 1969.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2012, 08:58:45 PM »
1968 Hooker Headers catalog and ads, courtesy of Robert Lodewyk.
















« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 04:59:14 AM by Jon Mello »
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Re: Headers
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2012, 09:11:13 PM »
1967-1968 Hedman Hedder ads. These were known more for ease of fit than outright performance but I have included
them here for identification purposes in case somebody has an old set they are trying to identify by the bends of the tubes.







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Re: Headers
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2012, 05:43:12 AM »
NOS header flanges from Douglass Muffler Mfg as used on the factory supplied Z-28 headers in '67. These are owned by Robert Lodewyk and are the 1.75" round port style.
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Jon Mello

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Re: Headers
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2013, 01:52:22 PM »
Here are some very neat NOS Headers by JR, made by Beeline Engineering out of Hillsdale, Michigan.
I have seen them called JR Headers and Headers by JR but they were not marketed as Beeline Headers
even though they were the manufacturer. These NOS headers were obviously never installed and still
have the instructions, header gaskets, etc. It is neat to see the Raybestos Manhattan #A56 gasket
material shown earlier for use with the Douglass/Bill Thomas headers. These authentic vintage headers
are owned by Roger Hefty and I thank him very much for sharing these photos with us.


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


Roger Hefty photo


JR Header decals from my personal collection

Jon Mello photo
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Re: Headers
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2013, 08:42:21 PM »
Very COOL set of headers. :)
Robert Lodewyk

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Re: Headers
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2013, 03:46:09 PM »
Are there comparable versions of any of the road racing headers such as the ones in this thread being produced today? Could you find similarly priced road race headers that might even be better? Amazing work!

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Re: Headers
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2013, 03:57:23 PM »
I believe they are still reproducing the Kustom and Bill Thomas/Douglass headers on a onesie-twosie basis but the price is not anywhere close to what they were originally. I think the price is $1500 or above. The other headers shown in this thread are not being reproduced. Hooker and Hedman are still around but their headers do not look the same (different flanges and pipe bends) as they did in the old days. You might be able to find used examples, which is why I have chosen to include pages from their advertisements and catalogs, making them easier to identify when and if they are found.
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janobyte

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Re: Headers
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2013, 07:53:33 PM »
Mr. Mello , you would seem to be the one to ask. Who made these ? Appears to be a Hooker #. Original owner stated when he ordered the Z he also ordered headers through the dealer. When he picked the car up they were in the trunk ,dealer would not install. I know they are not Stahls but am curious. None the less they are going back on, have been with the car since 68. any info would be appreciated.

janobyte

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Re: Headers
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2013, 07:56:02 PM »
2 more shots.

cook_dw

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Re: Headers
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2013, 03:07:26 AM »
I know I'm not Jon but I used to work at Holley as the tech support for Hooker & flow tech headers..  The 2204 is the part number for Hooker headers..  If I'm not mistaken they are the super comps with 1 3/4 primaries & 3" collectors & were able to be used with ps but not a/c.  I'm going off memory so I might not be 100%. 
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone, fake or whatever you wanna call it.  Its not original.. 
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Headers
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2013, 05:00:05 AM »
Janobyte, it is my opinion that the headers you have are Hookers since the part number seems to be one of theirs and later Hookers did
use that type of flange at the cylinder head interface. The '67 Hooker flanges are seen on the first page of this thread. The flange changed
for '68 due to Chevy putting a temp sender boss in the side of the cylinder head. The Hooker catalog below shows the style of flange that
Hooker was using from '68 to at least 1971 and probably later. I think your headers are mid '70s at the earliest. Just my 2 cents worth.
(Hooker catalog from the Jon Mello Collection)






















Close-up view of the flange kit showing the style of flanges Hooker used in the late '60s and early '70s.
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janobyte

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Re: Headers
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2013, 03:41:00 PM »
You are correct ,they are 1 3/4 "   I was pretty sure but not 100 % they are Hooker Super Comps. More important I am fishing for a date. Not to say the original owner is telling a story but by 76 ( when my father purchased it) the car changed hands 3 times and I can surmise they were replaced. At first I believed possibly the dealer ordered the headers as they did the Sun tac. Sadly that car may of had Stahls which are long gone. This is why I truly appreciate the wealth of knowledge on this site. The truth is in the catalogs.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2013, 10:00:12 PM »
It may well be that your car came new with the factory headers in the trunk so the original owner may
not necessarily be lying. With the car changing hands several times before your dad got it 7+ years later,
the headers could have been replaced by one of the interim owners and the original owner would have
been none the wiser. Stahl headers were never used by GM as their OEM supplier of headers. For the
'68 model year, Kustom headers would have been the brand that was offered.
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janobyte

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Re: Headers
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2013, 01:18:43 AM »
The history lessons here never get old to me .  Makes sense there was a header swap somewhere up stream. #1 owner tracked me down a few years ago. We spoke some time and he wanted to meet but I really have no interest in selling , where  this "meeting" was eventually going.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2013, 02:32:10 AM »
back in the day I was a stocking dealer for KUSTOM headers. jerrys stahl headers were good but they were heavier than some other brands and extra weight on the front of a race car is not good.
new Camaros owned 68 and 69 Z-28. new Corvettes owned 59,62,63,64,65,66,97,99 02,05 and 08.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2013, 03:20:21 PM »
Kustom made good headers and they got pretty popular in the early '70s but then it all fell apart. I don't know why but I guess it must come down to mismanagement.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2013, 04:52:11 PM »
Here are pages from the 1971 Cyclone headers catalog. Dick Harrell ("Mr. Chevrolet") and some of his
drag cars were featured inside the front cover. The 1970 Mopar Trans-Am cars used Cyclone headers.
(Jon Mello Collection)








































A good look at the style of flange used by Cyclone in the early '70s for small block Chevys.
Note the markings in the first picture below that show equal length primary tubes.





A June 1968 ad for Cyclone headers showing Chevrolet competition headers.


« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 05:02:36 PM by Jon Mello »
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janobyte

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Re: Headers
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2013, 08:46:53 PM »
I see someone out there is welding up the Kustoms. By no means am I trying to be insulting ,but what is the quality ? Tig welded ? Flanges thick and true? Tube size and gauge ? I'm interested the nostalgic look of them.  Never putting the cast iron exhaust manifolds back on it---never. Really digging the "street" T/A look ! That's what these Z's were built for, correct?

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Re: Headers
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2013, 10:20:28 PM »
Both the Bill Thomas/Douglass reproduction headers and the Kustom reproduction headers are done with a high level of craftsmanship.
I got my current set of reproduction headers through Larry Christensen when he had his Camaros Plus business several years back. He since
sold the business to Steve Pelletier and the phone number is 303-420-6229 (Colorado). I would assume Steve P could either sell you the
headers or direct you to whoever is doing them, whether that is still Larry's sideline or somebody else's. They're not cheap but they are
well done and I think you'll be happy to own them.
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janobyte

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Re: Headers
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2013, 11:53:14 PM »
thanks for the info. Custom headers are never cheap. Quite a few $$ for an Anglia we run. I'll give them a call and they should be able to answer any questions.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2013, 04:17:23 AM »
Did someone say "Street T/A"?  Camaro guys have it easy as far as header go. Just be glad thay didn't use a set up like this. I just finished them for my street T/A Boss. I probablty have close to $1,800 in just stainless tube and mufflers. Dual 3" pipes out each side should be loud enough.




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Re: Headers
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2013, 05:13:47 AM »
Beautiful job and an incredible amount of work to fabricate an exhaust system like that. I'm thankful
the Camaro teams never crafted something as complex as that although I do think it is very cool.
Thanks for sharing the photos.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2013, 02:40:34 AM »
Wow... that's great work!

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Re: Headers
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2013, 04:01:46 AM »
Now you know what I was doing over the winter!

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Re: Headers
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2013, 12:38:59 PM »
Amazing fab work on that exhaust system!!

janobyte

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Re: Headers
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2013, 11:20:02 PM »
Contacted Steve P today about headers , said he had a pair but sold them ?   Calling Larry Sikora tomorrow.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2013, 01:49:45 AM »
I never got the name of the guy who was doing them for Larry Christensen. I guess Larry Sikora is that guy?
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Re: Headers
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2013, 12:45:00 AM »
Larry was a big name rail/funny car chassis builder in the 60's through early 80's in N/E Ohio. Designed the Lakewood bell housing , worked for Mickey Thompson until his death. Redoing Jeg ( Coughlin' s ) nostalgic funny car. An artist and craftsmen ,not a self promoter. Right in the middle of drag racing back in the golden years. Calling him after the holiday about these pipes. Point being one of those wonderful old timers that can scratch a sketch on scrap paper and , produce a product with 0 tolerance. 

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Re: Headers
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2013, 07:25:04 PM »
Sounds like Larry Sikora certainly has the talent to make headers for you. I'll try and do some more digging
to verify if the factory headers are still being reproduced. I think they are but might be wrong about that.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2013, 07:01:15 PM »
Jon,

I purchased a set from  Larry Christensen, within the past 2 years; I believe he had a couple of sets left.

Paul

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Re: Headers
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2013, 11:06:13 PM »
Good to know. Thanks for posting, Paul.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2013, 05:06:05 AM »
Below are a couple of images I came across today that I saved a couple of years ago. They may have come
from ebay. I honestly don't remember. However, some good info for the JR Headers. I think this is for 1970.





Here is an ad for JR Headers...

« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 04:42:56 AM by Jon Mello »
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Re: Headers
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2013, 08:28:26 PM »
I am trying to identify some headers I have that came with my 68 302 car.  They have the square 4 bolt collectors and the flanges are separated on the head side, meaning the middle primaries are not connected to the outer two.  Ill post pics tomorrow.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone, fake or whatever you wanna call it.  Its not original.. 
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Headers
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2013, 10:53:55 PM »
Hi, probably Appliance headers from your description.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2013, 02:05:03 AM »
Hi, probably Appliance headers from your description.

They could also be '70s-era BlackJack headers as the same description fits. The BlackJack headers were white back then and I think they are black now.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2013, 02:13:50 AM »
These are at least 1975 as far as age.  Rust is the color on these.  lol  Like I said Ill get pics of them tomorrow.  Im thinking they are BlackJacks..  Are there any identifying numbers or locations for stampings that I could look for?  Any chance you have any catalogs from them Jon?
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone, fake or whatever you wanna call it.  Its not original.. 
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Headers
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2013, 03:48:09 AM »
Are you saying they are older than 1975 or newer than that? No, I don't have a catalog for BlackJack headers but have seen
old ads for them and confirmed the details that way. Post the pics and eventually we will get a definitive answer for you.
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cook_dw

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Re: Headers
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2013, 10:42:18 AM »
They are 1975 or older.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone, fake or whatever you wanna call it.  Its not original.. 
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

cook_dw

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Re: Headers
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2013, 09:49:01 PM »
Here are the pics.













Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone, fake or whatever you wanna call it.  Its not original.. 
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Headers
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2013, 05:00:12 AM »
The guy at this thread... http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/appliance-headers-first-gen-camaro-156947.html
says he has Appliance headers and they look basically like yours. However, he bought them as used items in a
junkyard and he may not necessarily be right. Below are two photos of his headers and they match up well with
yours. I think his are actually BlackJack headers with the optional "Alumacoat" and yours may be the standard
BlackJack headers without the special coating. I don't have a lot of '70s magazines but I will keep looking
around to see what else I can turn up.





Here is a Summit Racing Equipment ad for BlackJack headers from December 1981. The front tube (#2) is not
routed quite the same as yours but since it is a drawing, it may be just drawn incorrectly. The tiny color ad below
that shows the driver's side Alumacoat BlackJack header and that seems to be a match.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2013, 11:04:45 AM »
I definitely see the similarities but I also see that the merging of the colllectors are different in lengths.  Not sure if that could have been a manufacturing change or what but they are very similar.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone, fake or whatever you wanna call it.  Its not original.. 
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Headers
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2013, 03:10:48 PM »
Good catch on the different length. We'll get an answer sorted out eventually.
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OG69Z

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Re: Headers
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2013, 12:26:27 AM »
Here is one of my original Kustom Headers Decal Sticker:

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Re: Headers
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2013, 05:28:16 AM »
Some NOS header "singles" from the Robert Lodewyk collection. These came off a wall at a defunct speed shop as I understand it. The first
two pics are of a Douglass H504-DU Chevelle small block header, passenger side. The other two headers are thought to also be by Douglass
but there are no part number tags on them and we're not sure why they are painted a different color than the Chevelle header.











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Re: Headers
« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2013, 04:40:53 PM »
the thinking now days about headers is not equal length as it wideneds out the torque curve.  the new grand am corvette race cars even have unequal length fuel injection intake stacks for the same reason
new Camaros owned 68 and 69 Z-28. new Corvettes owned 59,62,63,64,65,66,97,99 02,05 and 08.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2013, 04:45:36 PM »
Yes, sometimes you'll see some strange and/or funny tubing bends on headers that are trying to have
equal length. I can't think of too many crazier looking bends than on the Stingray headers shown below
in a June '68 ad by Headers by Ed (Racing Exhaust Specialties). Note the Douglass style upper flanges.





This 1969 ad shows Z-28 street headers. Here it looks like the Douglass style upper flanges have been
replaced with the early style Hooker Header flange but with a circular notch cut-out for the temp sender.
These guys look like they made very good headers. (Jon Mello Collection)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 04:37:39 AM by Jon Mello »
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Re: Headers
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2013, 04:50:42 PM »
the thinking now days about headers is not equal length as it wideneds out the torque curve.  the new grand am corvette race cars even have unequal length fuel injection intake stacks for the same reason

I would think a wider torque curve would be desirable, no?
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Re: Headers
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2013, 05:09:17 AM »
Mickey Thompson came out with his "Super Scavenger" headers in 1968. A novel idea that didn't
last more than a couple of years. I believe M/T painted his headers orange. (Jon Mello Collection)









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Re: Headers
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2013, 03:58:48 AM »
Pages from the '68 Mickey Thompson Speed and Custom Equipment catalog. (Jon Mello Collection)







« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 12:24:01 AM by Jon Mello »
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Re: Headers
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2013, 01:50:39 PM »
Another header manufacturer that used the Douglass style head flange. (Jon Mello Collection)

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Re: Headers
« Reply #61 on: July 18, 2013, 06:51:44 PM »
the thinking now days about headers is not equal length as it wideneds out the torque curve.  the new grand am corvette race cars even have unequal length fuel injection intake stacks for the same reason

I would think a wider torque curve would be desirable, no?
yes it is on a road course
new Camaros owned 68 and 69 Z-28. new Corvettes owned 59,62,63,64,65,66,97,99 02,05 and 08.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2013, 11:21:58 PM »
My bad. I misunderstood what you said the first time. I don't know why but for some goofy reason I came away thinking you were saying a broader torque curve was not good.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2013, 06:30:54 AM »
September '69 ad for Cragar headers



An original set of Cragar headers. They appear to use the same head flange that Hooker did at this time.



« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 04:26:53 AM by Jon Mello »
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Re: Headers
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2013, 10:23:16 PM »
I noticed Jere Stahl of Stahl headers has an inventory reduction sale going on. In particular, I
noticed a couple of his #110 road race Camaro headers and the price was dirt cheap if you are
looking for these. It should be noted that the #110 headers sit a full inch higher in the chassis
and won't fit in a Camaro with a stock floor pan. You would have to have a car with the tunnels
in the floor like some of the old Trans-Am cars had. A good deal for somebody with a race car.

http://www.stahlheaders.com/Inventory%20sale%20drag.htm
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Re: Headers
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2013, 01:07:42 AM »
Jon,
they also call out for spread port heads..  You can make them work on stock heads with adapters but not intended for that & it could cause some fitment issues with the steering box & steering components.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone, fake or whatever you wanna call it.  Its not original.. 
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Headers
« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2013, 03:38:38 PM »

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Re: Headers
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2014, 03:27:39 AM »
Here are some Douglass header pieces that came in an NOS header kit, # HK-1405-D , that I recently purchased.
Hopefully the shots of some of the original hardware are useful to some of you.

















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Re: Headers
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2014, 03:53:38 PM »
Photos of original Douglass header gaskets recently purchased from Jere Stahl.


Photo by Chick Renn


Photo by Chick Renn
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Re: Headers
« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2014, 07:40:53 PM »
Nice finds Jon...where diid you find the Douglass kit?

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Re: Headers
« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2014, 09:02:29 PM »
Nice finds Jon...where diid you find the Douglass kit?

The kit was on ebay recently. Because the name was partially torn off the label, I don't remember it being listed as a Douglass item.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2014, 05:04:56 AM »
1967 Hedman Hedder catalog. At only 8 total pages, including front and back cover, it is not as voluminous as the majority of
other header catalogs that I have come across. The small block Camaro header is part number H-CH15. (Jon Mello Collection)
















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Re: Headers
« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2014, 02:28:04 AM »
I am glad you were able to buy those Douglass headers and gaskets.  Nice find.
1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 BBC, M21, 12 bolt.
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016

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Re: Headers
« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2014, 05:04:21 AM »
Thanks, Bryon. Here's a 1967 Cyclone Header catalog and price sheet. The small block Camaro header part number is HE-410.
I don't see a listing for a big block Camaro header in this catalog. (Jon Mello Collection)

















































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Re: Headers
« Reply #74 on: September 01, 2014, 05:42:53 AM »
Here's the 1969 Cyclone Header catalog. Notice that the flange that mates to the cylinder head is different from that shown in the '67 catalog. This is due to
Chevrolet changing the water temperature sender location from the intake manifold to the cylinder head on the small block V8 in '68. (Jon Mello Collection)























































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Re: Headers
« Reply #75 on: May 07, 2015, 04:27:19 AM »
All:

I posted this on yenko.net but received no responses. I should have thought to post on this thread! Are these headers in the auction below the early-style Hooker Z/28 headers?

http://tinyurl.com/pduqkgc

I thought they looked very similar to the pic below. Thanks for your help!

[/quote]

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Re: Headers
« Reply #76 on: May 07, 2015, 11:58:12 AM »
The headers on ebay look to be Camaro headers..  They are 68 and up due to the head flange has the cutout for the temp sensor..  Hooker always stamped their part #'s on that flange as well..  FYI the headers in the Hooker ad are for a 67.  If you posted over on sYc in the Day 2 section then I missed it..
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone, fake or whatever you wanna call it.  Its not original.. 
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Headers
« Reply #77 on: May 07, 2015, 08:20:42 PM »
Thanks Darrell.
I bought these headers. I couldn't find any numbers stamped on either flange, unfortunately, but the similarities were so strong that I decided to take a chance. I suspect that if they aren't Hookers, they are knockoffs of the same design.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #78 on: May 08, 2015, 12:50:58 AM »
Look & see if there is anything stamped on the collector flange.
Darrell Cook
1967 LeMans Blue SS/RS L35 clone, fake or whatever you wanna call it.  Its not original.. 
1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28

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Re: Headers
« Reply #79 on: May 08, 2015, 03:49:25 AM »
They do seem like they are a vintage set of Hooker headers for a Camaro. Nice score, especially for that price.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #80 on: May 08, 2015, 09:32:09 AM »
Thanks, I was pleasantly surprised by the condition when they arrived. Will test fit them this weekend. I've been looking for a vintage set for my Z28 for quite some time.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #81 on: May 09, 2015, 03:20:58 PM »
Let us know how they work out. A pic or two with them installed would be nice to see. Are you going to repaint them silver or something else?
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« Reply #82 on: May 09, 2015, 10:32:13 PM »
Will do. I was thinking of having them coated white by Swain Tech. Would they have been black when new?

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Re: Headers
« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2015, 12:17:31 AM »
They look like they were originally white in the pics below, or possibly some may have been silver.




Robert Lodewyk Collection
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Re: Headers
« Reply #84 on: May 11, 2015, 12:35:12 AM »
Nice article! I looked them over and they were definitely white, and painted silver over that. I'm not sure if they were ever used....

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« Reply #85 on: May 11, 2015, 01:30:43 AM »
To me those old Hookers have a certain sound. Mine, reportedly anyway, have been with the car pretty much since delivery. Getting coated ,but what's going back on BTY good score for the price. Big tube Super Comps (if that's what you have) need installed from the bottom.(driver side) Cut off a cheap open end wrench for # 7 port bolt installation.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #86 on: June 14, 2015, 01:58:37 AM »
These look to be the Douglass headers for '67....and SUCH A DEAL!!

http://tinyurl.com/pejsqb3


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Re: Headers
« Reply #87 on: June 14, 2015, 02:57:49 AM »
I like how it says more than 10 available.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #88 on: June 15, 2015, 02:34:15 AM »
The others would be very expensive reproductions.

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« Reply #89 on: June 15, 2015, 03:55:35 AM »
I guess I should've put a little smiley face after my comment.  ;D
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Re: Headers
« Reply #90 on: June 15, 2015, 08:52:14 PM »
Question? Jerry Stahl fabricated the headers for 67 ?   And was still building them up to his closing up(this I know)


In 67,if you ordered a Z with headers ( and what 506 Z's produced in 67, sorry if the number wrong, off the top of my head). Hypothetically, if every Z was ordered with headers , 506 would be in the trunk. Is this surplus that's being sold off for 15,000 a pair???

And Jerry numbered them ,so what's the number ??


More in 68, but different vendor.(Kustom) AND replicas are out there for a fraction of the cost of Heartbeat's price.

Personally I think because of Jenkins running Hookers ( and advertising them), may have sealed the fate on what became popular under the hood on theses cars. When #1 owner picked up the Z in 68, Hooker Super Comps are what the dealer supplied...so the story goes. Add the Sun TAC and Hurst shifter(both alive and well)

Couple of years ago almost pulled the trigger on a set that had been coated. Debated on a pair Stahls, decided to stay with what's been with the car forever.

Just ticks me off to see the hugely inflated prices on some of these rare (more then 10 available :)) items. BTY ,that kind of cash can buy a 1000+hp Shafiroff racing engine, fresh off the dyno. With $$$ to spare. Throw in a bolt in Moser 9". With discs. Maybe I'm just a bit too much of a cynic for some of this.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #91 on: June 15, 2015, 09:27:34 PM »
To be honest, you could probably afford to pay a top exhaust fabricator to teach you how to make your own professional level racing headers for less than $15k.  ::)

I really question their authenticity, not because I know better but simply from the quantity stated.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #92 on: June 15, 2015, 09:40:25 PM »
Larry Sikora built a pair of 1 3/4" for our small block Anglia, around $700 invested, that's including having them coated.  $500 for the Zoomies. Lemons are around 1500+ for a big block Camaro. Leaves a little breathing room for "other" necessities.

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« Reply #93 on: June 15, 2015, 10:00:22 PM »
Trans AM...funny. My kid's in the Welding Engineering program at Ferris State.  Did a wonderful job on a pipe for a custom Harley last summer. All TIG, he complained about the thin gauge material supplied by the owner...but did get paid

Fifteen grand covers a lot of tuition!

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Re: Headers
« Reply #94 on: June 16, 2015, 04:05:28 AM »
I don't seriously think he has 10 or more available. I think it's just the one set. These are the same set of headers that Rick's George had for many years and Heartbeat Jim bought the whole collection of rare parts, which is now for sale.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #95 on: June 16, 2015, 12:39:16 PM »
Was there ever any factory or dealer documentation showing that all 602 1967 Z's received the headers with shipment or delivery to customer and were there any part #'s associated with car vin #'s?
Barry     Old guy but still learning.....

Unrestored 67 barn find
67 SS 350 in process

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Re: Headers
« Reply #96 on: June 16, 2015, 05:08:07 PM »
Very few of the original 602 Z-28s got the factory headers. They were not a standard item included in the Z-28 package. You could get headers through your local speed shop for significantly less, which certainly factors into why they were seldom factory ordered.

There is nothing that ties a car's VIN to a set of factory GM headers. There were part numbers you could use to order a set of headers through your Chevrolet parts department however.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #97 on: June 16, 2015, 05:37:18 PM »
Larry Sikora built a pair of 1 3/4" for our small block Anglia, around $700 invested, that's including having them coated.  $500 for the Zoomies. Lemons are around 1500+ for a big block Camaro. Leaves a little breathing room for "other" necessities.

For some price comparison, ( A little backround )  McCabe lives right up the street from me and has been a custom header fabricator for 40+ years.  He worked for the various Nascar teams for dozens of years making more HP on the cars he touched, and eventually shared his knowlege with all of them before they became more cut throat and wanted him all for themselves.  He got tired of traveling as they wanted him on site as well.  Eventually engineers were brought in and learned from McCabe and all the tricks you now see in the sport originated from him.    He is now semi-retired and building custom headers for people, drag cars, road race cars, street cars, boats, even air planes.
   He builds some of the best I've seen in both looks and performance, and reasonable.  Most cars are in the $7-$800 range.   So I agree with you, I have a hard time justifying the $1500 expense for some of these "off the shelf" headers.


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Re: Headers
« Reply #98 on: June 17, 2015, 01:39:29 PM »
For sure there are better deals on headers out there and some that are made with a very high level of craftsmanship. These headers at Heartbeat City are special because they are NOS originals. They're the only originals left as far as I know. For that alone, they are worth a lot of money but I don't ever see them being sold at $15K. That's just far beyond what I think anyone would be willing to pay, even somebody with a documented factory header car.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #99 on: June 17, 2015, 09:08:59 PM »
X33RS, sounds like Larry. He was involved with designing(or did and was bought out) the Lakewood Bell Housing. Worked for Mickey Thompson up till his passing, and was hired by a company in Michigan doing some sort of complicated Mustang conversions...only to be let go after cheaper fabricators were brought in to figure out how he did it. He's doing well, last I spoke to him, working for Jegs  re-doing the father's old funny cars.
Friends with Don Garlits, still very respected from that era.

Quite a joy watching a craftsman at work, everything done off the top of their head. His shop is small, certainly an example of the man behind the tools.

Personally I feel a one surviving set of headers, no gasses through them, should be on display.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #100 on: June 17, 2015, 10:13:35 PM »
Personally I feel a one surviving set of headers, no gasses through them, should be on display.

     Yes, I definitely agree with that.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #101 on: June 18, 2015, 01:30:45 AM »
Personally I feel a one surviving set of headers, no gasses through them, should be on display.
Yes, I definitely agree with that.

Well Jon, I guess that means you volunteer to buy 'em and put them in a glass case for us. Thank you very much.  ;D

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Re: Headers
« Reply #102 on: June 18, 2015, 01:32:59 PM »
Well Jon, I guess that means you volunteer to buy 'em and put them in a glass case for us. Thank you very much.  ;D

      :o
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Re: Headers
« Reply #103 on: September 08, 2015, 03:17:10 AM »
Out of interest, of the various header manufacturers making these units in period, was there found to be an optimum primary tube diameter and collector diameter for 302 Chevy race cars? 

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Re: Headers
« Reply #104 on: September 09, 2015, 02:55:09 AM »
Looking through my notes from Jere Stahl, it sounds like 1-7/8 primary tubes, 32" length and 4" collectors yielded the most power in the '69 timeframe. He added "Today with the improved exhaust ports, we use 1-3/4" up to 500hp".
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Re: Headers
« Reply #105 on: September 09, 2015, 07:23:28 AM »
Thanks Jon, you are a wealth of knowledge! I appreciate the info.

Wow, 4" collectors are big!

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Re: Headers
« Reply #106 on: October 01, 2015, 02:18:19 AM »
NOS header flanges from Douglass Muffler Mfg as used on the factory supplied Z-28 headers in '67. These are owned by Robert Lodewyk and are the 1.75" round port style.
jon, I have a set of nos stahl headers made in the 80's.  Do you know where I can get a set of gaskets for the type of trans am flange shown?  Thanks. Jeff

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Re: Headers
« Reply #107 on: October 01, 2015, 01:38:00 PM »
Sorry, Jeff. I don't know of a source selling those kinds of gaskets. You just have to get lucky looking on ebay or at a swap meet where somebody is selling old stock they've hung onto for a whole lot of years.
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Re: Headers
« Reply #108 on: November 09, 2015, 03:54:25 PM »
Here are a fets sets of Camaro headers that I have currently.

NOS 1967-1969 Blackjack headers with square collectors.



Original Appliance BBC with square collectors.



And lastly, here is my set of original GM 1968 Camaro Kustom Z28 headers.


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Re: Headers
« Reply #109 on: November 09, 2015, 03:58:31 PM »
I also have this original 1968 Z/28 raced in Stock, Super Stock, and Modified Production from 1971-1975 out of NJ. This has a set of Stahl adjustable collector headers on it. He brought the car to Stahl and had the headers made up.





I'll get better pictures later. These are the best that I have for now.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #110 on: November 10, 2015, 05:03:57 AM »
That's a nice collection of headers there, Matt. Thanks for posting the pics here. I love that old drag Z/28 of yours.
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« Reply #111 on: November 10, 2015, 03:49:56 PM »
Thanks Jon.

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Re: Headers
« Reply #112 on: November 19, 2015, 02:28:08 AM »
I also have this original 1968 Z/28 raced in Stock, Super Stock, and Modified Production from 1971-1975 out of NJ. This has a set of Stahl adjustable collector headers on it. He brought the car to Stahl and had the headers made up.





I'll get better pictures later. These are the best that I have for now.
[/quotelove the turnbuckle on the drivers side

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Re: Headers
« Reply #113 on: November 24, 2015, 12:46:09 AM »
Interesting interview with American Racing Headers’ CEO Nick Filippides ............ His company American Racing currently build some of the finest headers available on the planet. 
http://carcastblog.adamcarolla.com/
http://www.americanracingheaders.com/Home

AL