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Author Topic: Warranty engine building and replacement procedures  (Read 3127 times)
Flowjoe
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« on: December 31, 2010, 03:40:30 PM »

Maybe I've missed this over the years or with my searches of the forum but I'd like clarification on the above process please.

I have read the section on CE/CT coding and dating in the general info section so I understand the break down of the stamped numbers.

Let's use an example to illustrate my question.

A 1969 model year car goes in for a warranty engine replacement in 1973 - four years into the 5/50 warranty.  Is that car going to receive a CE stamped engine built in 1973 or 1969?  Are warranty engines ordered at the time of warranty and so are "built to order"? Or, are they stock piled in advance?  If so, did GM stock pile a set number of CE engines (short block and fitted block) from a specific model year to be used as warranty engines for that model year? (that one seems financially imprudent).

Or have I fundamentally misunderstood the year numeric following the CE on the pad?

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rodent
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« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2010, 05:11:46 PM »

My guess would be '73, my Nov68 built '69 Vette has a CE that was installed in '70 and has a casting date of June '70.
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mopar346
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« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2010, 05:39:37 PM »

My AAR popped a motor in 72, it got a regular 340 short block at the time, due to the rarity of the T/A 340s. It now has a warranty T/A block (no numbers). I don't imagine it was any different in the average dealership regardless of manufacturer. I know that in dealerships in the last 20 years no thought is given to the date code when it comes to the warranty replacement engine. We have always made sure it was the correct engine for the application if at all possible. I do not believe they built X number of engines for warranty at the time of vehicle production. Warranty engines were designated by a special tag or the fact that it had no VIN assignment (Mopar for sure, but I think all followed suit).
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Stingr69
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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2011, 07:56:10 AM »

The CE stamped blocks and CT stamped transmissions would have the original MODEL year it was intended to replace in the digit following the "CT" or "CE" in the stamping code. The warranty/over the counter Engines will not have an assembly date stamping like original production line installed engines do but transmission cases will have an assembly date code stamping.

Example - "CE8XXXXXX" was a service engine that was intended to go into a 1968 model year Chevrolet vehicle. CT8XXXX was a service transmission intended to go into a 1968 Chevrolet vehice.

Example - Muncie "CT" tranny cases will have a "PXXX" date code that should (i believe) be the date when the tranny was produced. That service tranny assembly date code would not NEED to be the same as the model year of the vehicle it was intended to fit. That date could be the same as the model year or it could be later than that as these were "service parts".

All this brings about the issue of engines and transmissions that could be used to fit multiple year models (or even Pontiacs for that matter). The documentation for the year model specific stamping nomenclature exists and I have seen it so it must be that, for example there some over the counter Pontiac trannys that were stamped PT8 that were identical to some CT8 trannys in the Chevrolet parts system. Some service stamped parts will also fit multiple year models but that would not seem to concern anyone at GM based on everything I have seen.

-Mark.
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BlackoutSteve
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« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2011, 09:23:54 AM »

My guess would be '73, my Nov68 built '69 Vette has a CE that was installed in '70 and has a casting date of June '70.
Jim, could this mean that your post-June 1970 CE is a 454, because 427s were discontinued at the end of the 1969 model year?
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mopar346
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« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2011, 09:50:25 AM »

Mark - great info, thanks for sharing.

Steve, even though the 427 wwas discontinued, the gov'ment requires a manufacturer to have service parts available for several years after rpoduction ends (3 or 7 I cant remember). Then of course you would have what ever was left available until the surplus was used up.
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JohnZ
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« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2011, 10:12:35 AM »

The number following the "CE" on the stamp is the calendar year the short block (or fitted block) was manufactured, not the model year car it's intended for. "CE" replacements were ordered by part number from an application chart so the innards matched those of the failed engine; that part number only appeared on the shipping paperwork and on the crate it was shipped in. The "CE" stamping on the block pad only indicated year of manufacture and which engine plant built it.
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Flowjoe
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« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2011, 12:44:03 PM »

My AAR popped a motor in 72, it got a regular 340 short block at the time, due to the rarity of the T/A 340s. It now has a warranty T/A block (no numbers). I don't imagine it was any different in the average dealership regardless of manufacturer. I know that in dealerships in the last 20 years no thought is given to the date code when it comes to the warranty replacement engine. We have always made sure it was the correct engine for the application if at all possible. I do not believe they built X number of engines for warranty at the time of vehicle production. Warranty engines were designated by a special tag or the fact that it had no VIN assignment (Mopar for sure, but I think all followed suit).
I'm not sure that I understand how corporate policy and procedure at Mopar informs of us of corporate policy and procedure at GM.  I, at least, am clear that dating is far more important to us in the here and now than it ever was  "back in the day" other than for tracking components and corporate accountability.
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Flowjoe
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« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2011, 01:04:09 PM »

The number following the "CE" on the stamp is the calendar year the short block (or fitted block) was manufactured, not the model year car it's intended for. "CE" replacements were ordered by part number from an application chart so the innards matched those of the failed engine; that part number only appeared on the shipping paperwork and on the crate it was shipped in. The "CE" stamping on the block pad only indicated year of manufacture and which engine plant built it.
OK - this was my understanding of the stamping.   

If we go back to my example and add more detail:  Say the '69 in question had a high compression engine (say an L78 with 11:1) and it received a warranty replacement engine in 1973 built in '73 (CE3xxxxxxx) when engine plants were no longer building high compression motors would that motor still be spec'd as per OE?  Would the engine plant have access to the pistons and cam for the L-78 at that point in time? 

How was the PN attached to the CE block?  Paper tag?  And did GM build a set number of CE blocks each year and then inventory them?

For the record I am asking all of this not to fake something up but out of genuine curiosity.  I have a 05A built X77 Z/28 carrying  a CE block stamped CED35918  (I can't find where I wrote the cast date and the car is not here at the moment) but I have friends with cars like Rodent's where the CE block has a year date newer than the model year car.
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mopar346
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« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2011, 05:18:52 PM »

In 99.99% of the cases the engine would be available, again the feds REQUIRE that replacement parts be available several years after production stops. In the worst case scenario the dealer/manufacturer would rebuild the damaged engine in the case of a ventilated block a service block would be obtained and then the necessary parts aquired to build the engine. The warranty stipulates that it is repaired or replaced with a like product which ever is more cost effective for the manufacturer or which ever they choose. Now days, with most manufacturers, you have to submit a repair estimate to the manufacture for them to determine repair or replacement, it is much stricter now than even 20 years ago, but guidelines exist since warranties have existed.
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rodent
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« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2011, 08:42:46 PM »

Jim, could this mean that your post-June 1970 CE is a 454, because 427s were discontinued at the end of the 1969 model year?

Steve, the engine is 512 casting and still 427ci Smiley
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GI JOE
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« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2011, 02:42:50 AM »

Hey FlowJoe,  I get what you are asking and I have wondered the same things.  All I can share is a friend of mine claims he had a 69 396/375 CE engine and went to rebuild it and it was a 402 cu. in.   ... from that I would guess Chevy used what engine met the spec at the time...  in this case a L78 402 short block...  but again I am basing this from a friends statements... 

I would think Chevy built extra replacement parts to cover warranty work but logistically I would think it would be hard to keep a current production year of stockpiled parts... They probably did this at some percentage of production and I would guess they would replace with what was the next closest to it when those were gone. 

I would like to know the actual process for the warranty work? Step one Camaro owner brings it to dealership... step 2 Some how dealership contacts GM, verifies claim, starts the repairs... where does the blown short block go? does replacement come direct from engine plant  or another plant???  I also think Chevy would have kept records of warranty work...does anyone know?

BTW, how is it we have all the ZL1 info... I know a lot of the research was from Ed C. and others went into the ZL1 but I suspect there are records of some kind somewhere...
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mopar346
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« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2011, 12:03:35 PM »

He is what I know to be fact, keeping in mind I have been involved with dealership service continuously since the mid-80s. When the customer bring a vehicle in, the concern is documented and verified. The technician then follows the outlined diagnostic procedure to determine the origin of the failure and the needed repairs. They then go through what ever authorization process is required by the manufacture (sometimes even requiring an inspection by a rep, although rare), they then order the parts from the parts department through the normal PDC (parts depot). On ocassion, something the size of an engine may be drop shipped from plant or supplier. The repairs are then made and the old parts are retained for a time period for inspection if requested and then scrapped once authorized. The vehicle is then returned to the customer and the claim processed for payment. The dealership is then required to retain the paperwork for a designated time period, the manufacture does keep records but I don't know for how long and of course after 40 years it is doubtful it still exist other than what a customer has or some extreme pack rat dealers. This process and core steps have been in place since my first dealership and although I was not involved I am reasonably sure the process was similar in its core since the 40s or 50s but surely by the 60s.

During this this process there are many opportunities for individuals to stray from process. Not diagnois it properly (don't get me started), parts not returned and retained, parts not properly scrapped, the wrong engine given out and the paperwrok corrected to show the right part number for submission purposes (have a $4000 claim held because a parts man gave out the wrong engine and see what happens). I have known of cases where old stock is converted to good numbers to get it out of inventory, sometimes legit with part numbers superseding to a new number, sometimes not. Part of my business is creating these processes and helping dealerships avoid these errors.

Hope it answers some questions.
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JohnZ
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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2011, 12:18:07 PM »

If we go back to my example and add more detail:  Say the '69 in question had a high compression engine (say an L78 with 11:1) and it received a warranty replacement engine in 1973 built in '73 (CE3xxxxxxx) when engine plants were no longer building high compression motors would that motor still be spec'd as per OE?  Would the engine plant have access to the pistons and cam for the L-78 at that point in time? 

How was the PN attached to the CE block?  Paper tag?  And did GM build a set number of CE blocks each year and then inventory them?

For the record I am asking all of this not to fake something up but out of genuine curiosity.  I have a 05A built X77 Z/28 carrying  a CE block stamped CED35918  (I can't find where I wrote the cast date and the car is not here at the moment) but I have friends with cars like Rodent's where the CE block has a year date newer than the model year car.

Yes, the high-compression parts were still available at the engine plants or from the plant's suppliers. Since a block with no heads, intake, water pump or oil pan couldn't be handled by the normal production-line conveyors and handling equipment at the end of the engine assembly line, Service short blocks and fitted blocks were usually built in batches on weekends - I know they were at Flint V-8. Service engines were built based on orders and forecasts from GMPD (GM Parts Division in those days).
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KurtS
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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2011, 12:39:58 PM »

Service parts have always been a pain for the component plant.
Often they maintain a small line dedicated just for service parts or else run a bunch of them together. 40 of this, 56 of that, a pain to keep track of the components and the setups. The plant gets paid for it - hence one reason dealer parts cost $$.
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Kurt S
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