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Author Topic: 69 Z28 RS for sale on Ebay.... whats wrong with this car  (Read 12166 times)
9T4Z
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« on: December 20, 2010, 09:11:26 AM »

I sent him a note and told him that concourse implies that the car is restored to original and correct standards.... he wants to know what is wrong with the car. I can count a number of items...
Anyone want add to the list....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170580418006&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Sill plates
Heater Hoses
Zip ties under hood
Exhaust system
Shock absorbers
Wheel rim inner paint
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Gary 9T4Z

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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 10:12:13 AM »

Here are a few more:

Air cleaner stud & wing nut should be phosphate, not zinc
Valve covers shouldn't be polished
Incorrect service replacement radiator cap
Heater hoses incorrectly routed/twisted
Upper control arm dust flaps not positioned through control arms
Incorrect upper alternator bracket - too many holes
Spare tire installed upside-down
Excess trunk mat - only came with deluxe interior option
Excess GM Mark of Excellence sticker on door - wasn't used in '69
Reproduction rear springs
No photo of trim tag
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9T4Z
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 10:24:33 AM »

John... ouch!

ok... air cleaner gasket upside down?
       Paint gaskets on the reverse lights
       Tires
       Wheel well trim. repop
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Gary 9T4Z

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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 11:11:53 AM »

Hood hinges and hood latch painted.

Should be gray Phosphate
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Daniel  
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 11:57:09 AM »

Think I will join the party.

L512280 would be 12B too early for ducted hood...would have had insulation
trim height incorrect; too high
rocker panels should be painted black
air cleaner vent tube hose incorrect should be 3/4" x 1" x 90
missing 1 headlamp washer nozzle
rear stripe layout incorrect
rear axle U bolts too long
coolant pump bolts would have been painted orange

Bears repeating-exhaust system is horrible.
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dannystarr
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 05:12:21 PM »

WOW!! you guys are good! And certainly got more knowledge than I, by a long shot. I love to learn. I looked it over carefully and was hoping the tip of the dipstick wasn't green. But it is.

BUT the Radiator petcock looks wrong to me. Shoudn't the fins be facing open TOWARDS the engine?

Also the interior paint pattern on the horn button looks to be repro??

Also looks like the piston return springs might be after market??.......Danny
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Boston14
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 08:31:27 PM »

here's a few more;
incorrect caster - camber shims
upper ball joints bolted in
Fram oil filter
insulators under gas tank straps
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boston14

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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 08:35:14 PM »

a couple more;
screw missing for l/r wheel opening mldg.
r/r inner brake line retainer on differential housing not retaining brake line
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boston14

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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 09:29:01 PM »

Most of the cars restored today use repop parts and Chinese sheetmetal. Nothing new. Most of the stuff on this car would not take to much to fix in my opinion. As long as the price reflects the condition is what counts. Looks to me that the people bidding are happy and probably don't really know what they are looking at. Pretty good money at this point.
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sdkar
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 05:46:19 AM »

My turn...

Wrong floor mats
non factory original tires
That endura bumper is way too nice to be factory
the alignment on the driver RS headlight door will never be right (that is an absolute fact)
lint on carpet
paint too shiny
smudge on fender
fingerprints on glass
DS radiator mounting bolts incorrect (should be the squishy rubber things)
washer bottle is very low on fluid
pass. seatbelt on console folded wrong
water spot on trunk mat near spare tire
Blue GM sticker on DS door jamb...not factory
unleaded fuel in tank (should contain lead)
scuff on sill plate (indicates bad door hinge)
bottom of rockers way too nice...be leary
Pass Front tire - pebble in tread
missing "CAUTION FAN" sticker

Obviously painted by Earl Schieb
This thing is a complete basket case and needs way to much work to be a correct car...I would recommend all buyers stay away from this one for sure.

Seriously though, at least a billion dollars spent on restoration work and they use those cheap zip ties on the alternator wiring harness instead of the correct ones!!!  OMG, they are like complete amateurs. 


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9T4Z
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 08:05:18 AM »

OMG Do I sense SARCASM?!! 

 The car is obviously very nice in many respects... its just that the difference between a $70K car, and one where the owner wants $109K, require a high level of restoration skills. I just wanted to have a little teaching exercise. In fact you gentlemen noted several items I missed.  As close as I looked I didn't see the 'smudge on the fender'
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Gary 9T4Z

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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 08:34:58 AM »

Why do they always turn the cowl air cleaner to hood seal down?

Jimmy V.
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« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 09:12:11 AM »

OMG Do I sense SARCASM?!!  

 The car is obviously very nice in many respects... its just that the difference between a $70K car, and one where the owner wants $109K, require a high level of restoration skills. I just wanted to have a little teaching exercise. In fact you gentlemen noted several items I missed.  As close as I looked I didn't see the 'smudge on the fender'

Perhaps two more lesson learned...the days of 6 figure prices for these fine muscle cars can no longer be had. Second lesson...perhaps it is time, the high level restoration shops experienced their own market adjustment...IMO...go easy on me... Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 11:43:48 AM »

OMG, they are like complete amateurs. 
Yes, and the first clue was the sarcasm (or should I say "bluff") in the initial reply to 9T4Z, saying you tell me what is wrong with the car.  Roll Eyes

9T4Z, why don't you ask him what it is worth to gain this valuabale correction list from the CRG forum???  I think your overall appraisal of the car is fair.  It is a real shine and show job, but there are several over-restored and imporperly restored items about it...  (I'll have to admit it was fun watching you guys pick it apart! You made my day!)  Grin  Grin  Grin

I think this one comment from John is pretty revealing:
No photo of trim tag
  Huh  Huh  Huh
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Phillip
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2010, 12:41:36 PM »

Why? There is nothing of value on a Van Nuys tag thus no need to post a photo of it.

It IS odd that this car was completely dismantled for restoration but no photos of the drivetrain stampings. Nice photo of the inside rear view mirror though...
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sam
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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2010, 02:52:28 PM »

23 bidders and going strong! Alot of money for a Z/28 IMO.
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sdkar
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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 03:25:55 PM »

I was contacted by the owner of the car and he was upset that his Camaro was picked apart the way it was on this site.  He also explained that he typically does not deal with American cars (hence the Eurocars tag) but he thought the car was very nice and invested a lot of money to obtain the car and did not like our comments.  I explained that almost every comment, including my own, were us finding every little thing that was not perfect, but overall, everyone was just making light of a car that I am sure we all thought was extremely nice.  I explained that my comments on the lint and the smudge were complete fun and that I was being sarcastic as I had to find something wrong with the car as the car was really quite nice.  I assumed my sarcasm was obvious.  

I further explained that the missing caution fan sticker was an inside joke with many Camaro guys here.  He seemed to understand this and was happy that we were not really picking on his car but having fun, even if it was at his expense, but that is what many of us do here if asked our opinion.  He should see what we type when a car really is a bad restoration job and we are asked to give our opinions.   I think we can all agree here that the car was extremely nice and though things were found wrong, overall, they were quire minor.  In fact, I bet we would be just as equally critical of a Camaro that came off the assembly line and traveled through time to 2010 and popped up for us to review it.  

I told him that my comment on the car needing way too much work was, at least to me and I am sure most others here, blatant sarcasm.  I was trying to make the point that the car really needed very little work to be 100% correct that it was a joke to even mention the items it did need.  However, in our defense, we were invited to critique the car and we did.  If that is all that the combined efforts of all of us on CRG can come up with, well that car is pretty darn good in my book.  I wish that was all that was wrong with my Camaros, I would be thrilled.  If you put the Mona Lisa on display for a bunch of critics to review, you will get the same type of responses.  It doesn't mean the Mona Lisa is a bad painting, its what people do.

Also, his concern was that potential buyers would read this site and not buy the car.  So, if anyone would like to post a response and say what they like about the car and maybe give a comparison to the Camaros that we have seen out there, he would like that.  Maybe mention for any possible buyers who may read this post, what is good about the car and not what is bad.    

I finished up and stated that his car was very nice and he should be overall quite proud of it.  However, I did stick to my statement about the zip ties on the alternator harness and that he should spend the couple of dollars and get the correct "T" ties.  Anyway, it is a nice car, and I wish my 69 Camaros were half as nice and only had the items wrong with them that we listed above.  In fact, I'm never letting you guys judge my cars at all.  You guys are just plain mean.  
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jl8dale
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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 03:49:13 PM »

I agree that this type of discussion can lend a bad name to a particular car which is unfair to the seller. This is a restored car and therefore it will more than likely consist of many repro parts which as we all know, are not quite the same as originals. That is what is available unless you take 10 years of searching for NOS parts and pay ridiculous money for oil filters and weather stripping, etc. etc. Of course, when the day comes for you to sell your car, nobody wants to pay you for your NOS parts.

The car is what it is and when you restore a car, most people want to make it better than new. Better paint, nicer detail, and plated parts that resist rust rather than bare metal which is normally correct. Who wants to be a slave to their collection oiling up bare metal parts to stop your hobby/investment car from rusting.

That said, this car being a LA Z/28 should show proof of its heritage. Any high dollar car or claim to be numbers matching should back it up with stamp pictures and documentation to prove it.
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 04:35:03 PM »

The car was not 'unfairly' picked on. There was a bit of humor we understand, that others may not.  As far as having a car 'picked apart' we've all been there at some time. My first trip to the ACA Nationals was an 'eye opener' and my feelings were hurt. All the comments were constructive and I've learned from it.  That said, this is a very strong price for a vehicle without documentation. As far as the dollars required to make it 'concourse' it couldn't be done for less than $10K.  All of the NOS stuff is still available you just got to spend $$$. In this price range most purchasers would assume that 'concourse' would be correct or very close to it. I did not start the thread to 'hurt the vendor'. He suggested he might 'offer to correct all deficiencies, if he got his price. I really thought he may have underestimated what was involved. And remember this is just what the camera sees.  There are so many date coded items that cost thousands to collect.

Again the thread was not to offend, but to educate. I myself learned a lot and appreciate all the comments.
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Gary 9T4Z

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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 06:29:52 PM »

   In fact, I'm never letting you guys judge my cars at all.  You guys are just plain mean. 

If you think these guys at CRG are mean you should see how they regularily treat people and cars that aren't part of their clique over on the Yenko site!
This thread started over there would probbaly be up to ten pages long by now and getting nastier by the minute...

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427-KING
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« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2010, 01:24:23 AM »

"23 bidders and going strong! Alot of money for a Z/28 IMO"..........................Hugger orange/ RS  is very appealing. The biggest thing I see wrong with the car is that ny name is not on the title.
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« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2010, 06:46:18 AM »

First thing I saw which is a BIG heads up for me is Camaro is spelled wrong. It spelled Camero in the secondary title line in the ad.
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« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2010, 08:52:12 AM »

I don,t think anyone was mean. They were just showing expertise in a hobby that they are serious about. Watching BJ a 69 came through at 70K or so and shortly later a very nice one came through at 1/2 that. My wife asked why and I told the first was real and correct and the second one probably was not. The important thing is to try get what you pay for and what you want. I paid more for for my 52,000 unrestored 69 L78 than I did for my frame off 69 Z28 RS even though the Z is very much nicer.
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« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2010, 09:11:38 AM »

The seller and I exchanged e-mails again. I assured him that a search on Google would not bring up our comments because I did not cross reference the vin in my 'topic'. He is ok with the comments and says he is learning a great deal from this. It's all good.  Interesting though.... I did Google the vin. Seems the car was in Australia at some time! Camaro was spelled wrong in that ad also... sometimes it's done on purpose for those that can't spell... still gets the hit.

 Also if you check the bidders list, there appears to be more interest from bidders with no real buying history on ebay. The last I looked, a knowledgeable (I'm guessing from the number of previous bids) bidder, topped out at $66K. The second highest bidder appears to have some cash... bought Aston Martin parts... but the lead bidder has no history on EBay.... and has 18 bids in for the car. Don't often see that.
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Gary 9T4Z

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« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2010, 09:28:07 AM »

The bid history also shows the lead bidder aggressively jacking up the price. You see this all the time...its called baiting. Its also suspect because as you mentioned, the bidder has no previous history...just an observation.

BTW, Gorgeous car
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« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2010, 11:03:24 AM »

It's just my opinion and they are like elbows. If you don't want your car picked apart don't include the word concourse in the title. I hope my car looks this good when I finish but I am building a driver and I know it won't be perfect.
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« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2010, 07:38:09 AM »

"23 bidders and going strong! Alot of money for a Z/28 IMO"..........................Hugger orange/ RS  is very appealing. The biggest thing I see wrong with the car is that ny name is not on the title.

I agree with that! Sometimes people write things in fun, etc. and it turns into a negative bash. Put one of your cars on here, members tear into it and see how any of us would feel. Sometimes it just gets out of hand. Guess its all in how its communicated. And do not get me wrong, I have been as guilty of this as anyone. Hey, a New Years resolution, yea!
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Chick
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« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2010, 11:16:52 AM »

<<
If you don't want your car picked apart don't include the word concourse in the title.
>>

Even the word "concourse" is wrong - you find "concourses" in airports. The correct word is "concours", as in "concours d'elegance".
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« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2010, 12:20:01 PM »

Fa-la-la-la-la...la-la-la-la... Grin
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« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2010, 04:23:26 PM »

Is it bashing or constructive criticism.  Is it being mean or just showing off our vast knowledge of info of the Camaro.  Either way, no one here should change a thing on what they do or say.  We are being true to ourselves.  Each and everyone here has learned what is right and wrong with their Camaros by hearing those horrible words "that's wrong".  It's how we learn...by failure and hurt feelings.  The desire to correct our mistakes and do better.  This would never happen if we didn't get our feelings hurt from time to time. 

Regardless of how hurt the owner of the car was in reading the items listed above, humor aside, all of it was correct.  This way, the owner will learn and his next Camaro will be better for it as he now knows what Camaro enthusiasts look at and what makes a Camaro a GOOD Camaro.  Otherwise, if we don't pick apart and stay true to our knowledge, this imporatant information will get diluted and ten years from now, the term "all original" will have a different meaning.  So, its important to stay true and if we are invited to critique a car, we will to the best of our abilities and no matter how small the detail.  Close is close and right is right.  And if we decide to have some fun as well, as we did, well that is what its all about...having fun too.  No one here wants anyone to break down and cry as a result of our opinions, but we do want the truth known and if someone is going to make a claim that their Camaro is perfect, we will be there to let them know its not.  We are honest and that is a good thing.  If someone doesn't like what we say, then they need to put on their big boy overalls and get over it.  We are here for the Camaros...not anyone's self esteem.   

So, no one needs to change a single way they comment on any topic here.  It is this freedom that has made this site great and that needs to continue. 

I am still not letting any of you cold hearted cretins judge my car though.  I have judged it myself and there ain't a thing here anyone could say to me that I already don't know is wrong with it.  It's not perfect...just like me.

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« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2010, 05:16:20 PM »

sdkar has it right!  I too am here for the cars and to learn.  Honesty is the best policy (even when it hurts).  When we become so close minded that we think we know everything, we are done ....... may as well hang it up.  I spent 20 years fixing these cars for General Motors, another 20 years in "private practice", and still learn something new everyday!  It's amazing what you can learn if you listen and pay attention.   Smiley

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« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2010, 09:12:15 PM »

Its looking more and more like the owner of this car could very well have the last laugh.  With two days left this is certainly some serious $$$! One can only imagine what these guys have locked in as their maximum bids. It should get very interesting once it gets down to the wire. The owners timing could not have been scripted any better either...Xmas gift for dad? This should stimulate at least a little impulse bidding.

At any rate, in today's economy, I think I would have pulled the plug on the reserve a long time ago.
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« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2010, 10:35:33 AM »

Well, it looks like this Camaro hit six figures and the reserve is met.  What seems odd is if you click on bids and then the name of the highest bidder, it says the following:

Bidder Information
Bidder: 7***c( 89) 
Feedback: 100%Positive 
Item description: Item Title: Chevrolet : Camaro
Bids on this item: 3
  30-Day Summary
Total bids: 15
Items bid on: 7
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 20%   
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 1
 
Any idea what the above means?  Ebay must provide this information for a reason.

Anyway, looks like the car is sold.  I can't believe these things are still hitting the six figure mark.  I guess rich people don't know a recession is on.

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« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2010, 02:58:57 PM »

As 'Mister T" would say..... I pity the foool
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Gary 9T4Z

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« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2010, 03:03:02 PM »

Well, it looks like this Camaro hit six figures and the reserve is met.  What seems odd is if you click on bids and then the name of the highest bidder, it says the following:

Bidder Information
Bidder: 7***c( 89)  
Feedback: 100%Positive  
Item description: Item Title: Chevrolet : Camaro
Bids on this item: 3
  30-Day Summary
Total bids: 15
Items bid on: 7
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 20%  
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 1
 
Any idea what the above means?  Ebay must provide this information for a reason.

Anyway, looks like the car is sold.  I can't believe these things are still hitting the six figure mark.  I guess rich people don't know a recession is on.



Means he/she bid 3 times on the camaro but has bid on a total of 7 different things totaling 15 total bids which mathmatically means 20% of his total bids were bid on the camaro. Can be a good tool to see if something looks fishy.
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Chick
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69 L78 Surv Nova Purch 4/69 31K miles
67 L89 Corv Tribute
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« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2010, 03:09:11 PM »

As 'Mister T" would say..... I pity the foool
What exactly are you implying Gary...The critics on this site or the fool that is willing to pay 100K for an Endura Bumper Huh  Hopefully it is the latter...
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« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2010, 07:58:35 AM »


Excuse me?  Huh

 Shocked I thought it was pretty obvious. As I mentioned earlier the car was restored in Australia. No history on the car or way to certify what it is. Purchased for AUD$ which last year would be about .65 exchange rate. Nothing done to it since the restoration..... I also mentioned in a prior post the last knowledgeable bidder had topped out at 66K, I also implied that the bidding was 'odd with first time buyers... , and I also mentioned in a previous post that the car would need 'more than $10 thousand to correct it.... I also implied a price of $70K for a real nice car with no documentation.....

so I still think my comment is obvious

Merry Christmas one and all
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Gary 9T4Z

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« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2010, 08:26:23 AM »

Apologies Gary...I feel much better now...Merry Christmas to you and yours! Smiley
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« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2010, 06:13:29 PM »

In case anyone is still interested, the car is back on Ebay due to a fraudulent bidder.  It will be interesting to see if it hits reserve this time.
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« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2010, 09:19:09 PM »

In case anyone is still interested, the car is back on Ebay due to a fraudulent bidder.  It will be interesting to see if it hits reserve this time.

Here's the new listing...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Camaro-Z28-69-CAMERO-Z28-CONCOURSE-RESTORATION-MATCHING-s-/180605969365?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2a0cf463d5

Paul
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« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2010, 10:31:36 PM »

I especially liked the welded on exhaust tips. That must be why is is only a concourse restoration  and not a concours. Still way nicer than my car ever thought about being. But I'm like many of you and actually drive mine occasionally. Speaking of drivng, I got caught in some wet snow a few weeks ago at a local car show/toy run with several local clubs. I felt for the guys with the rat rods. No wiindshields, no wipers, no heaters but they were loving it. The Camaro will have to wait till spring to get cleaned up.
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9T4Z
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« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2011, 11:50:03 PM »

One last comment:
Most reputable vendors will not accept bids from zero feedback/zero bid purchasers.
That said, this vendor has accepted bids on all their offerings from such bidders.
Again, I started the topic only because I believed that the car was no where up to the standard that concours, would imply. (ps my spell checker does not like that word)
I honestly believed that the vendor would benefit from knowing the difference between a $70K car and $100K car.  I was obviously WRONG!
Apparently when the testosterone of bidding starts turning into a pissing contest bidders with little knowledge will be inclined to follow the bumps to stupid numbers.
The bidding on the car was obviously 'shill" .... yes sue me. Looking at the bidding on the vendors other offerings will quickly lead to the same conclusion.
When I said 'I pity the fool" it was the purchaser.
It is a nice $70K all day, but no docs etc. and it went over the top.
Obviously the economy is not at all bad, and apparently the future is bright for restored first gens. Apparently people will pay whatever for whatever as long as the paint is nice.

Happy New Years guys.... 2011 is definitely going to be a good one.
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Gary 9T4Z

94Z rag blower 491 rwhp (now 505!)
69 Pace Car, 70RS,91Z,91RS
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« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2011, 12:08:56 PM »

While it appears you are right on the upper bidders at the end, at aorund the 85K price there were many bidders with lots of feedback that appeared to be legit.
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sdkar
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« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2011, 01:27:26 PM »

It appears that a bidder or two who bid on this car likes to buy from this seller...is that what I am to understand from the above? 

I am the bidder with a feedback of 796 and 100% positive feedback.  I bid the car up to $90K and still did not hit the reserve.  There were only three bidders after that.  One of them had a "0" feedback.  The winner had a feedback of "3", obviously did not buy the car, and is now no longer a registered bidder (looks like he was booted by ebay for whatever reason...any guesses why?).  The third bidder who placed a single bid had a feedback of "89" who, if I am reading the ebay info correctly, seems to bid on stuff from this guy a lot.  Of course, I am sure it's all a coincidence. 

I do agree, it is a very very nice car, but concours may be a strong word in describing this car.  I have seen some Camaros that people have paid anywhere from $50K to $70K for and they were not nearly as nice as this one.  The car lacks paperwork and may not be 100% OEM, but it is a darn nice car.  A lot nicer than either of mine are or hope to be. 

   
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2011, 01:56:32 PM »

Please shed light on this car because it's obvious you are not the only one who believes the car is worth strong money(aside from the low mi & a Z). I am especially curious because you mentioned there are no docs/papers for the car. At the very least, did the owner supply you with the necessary #'s to decode the car?

In addition...IIRC, didn't the owner pull the reserve somewhere around 80k?

Just curious...I will also understand if you will not fill me in until it sells. Smiley
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 03:23:04 PM by IZRSSS » Logged
427-KING
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« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2011, 07:18:38 PM »

I had a customer interested in the car at around 80-85K[evidently he must know about the car?] ,after  it met reserve and is relisted its done nothing positive for the car. Its not always a bidder helping the seller when these things happen , sometimes its a jealous bidder not wanting the sale to go through for the seller.
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IZRSSS
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« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2011, 07:29:07 PM »

I agree...re-listing the car raises a red flag for some people, and typically if a deal falls through the seller offers the car to the next bidder/bidders down the list. You would think someone was still in the running, or at least beyond the cap. I would be very surprised if this car hits the same numbers it did on the first go.  
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