CRG Discussion Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 21, 2014, 05:08:12 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Welcome to the CRG Discussion Forum!
Forum registration problems: Make sure you enter your email correctly and you check your spam box first. *Then* email KurtS2@gmail for help.
104616 Posts in 12242 Topics by 4719 Members
Latest Member: Baconcks
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  CRG Discussion Forum
|-+  Camaro Research Group Discussion
| |-+  Decoding/Numbers
| | |-+  VIN assignment - JohnZ?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [All] Print
Author Topic: VIN assignment - JohnZ?  (Read 4450 times)
Flowjoe
Member
***
Posts: 340


View Profile Email
« on: November 29, 2010, 01:50:00 PM »

I understand that the VIN is assigned to the body shell when it crosses from Fisher to Chevrolet (as per JohnZ's report).  But is the following statement correct?

"... Vin #'s have notting [sic] to do with the built [sic] date. The Vin # is assigned to the order sheet when placed by the dealers or GM. The built [sic] date should not be used as a gage [sic] on early cars of any make. I [have] seen many cars with built [sic] dates and even on parts that are way off from the Vin [sic] and are 100% true survivors!  If a car was ordered for a special purpose or is awaiting back ordered options or parts then it would be put on hold until availible [sic] and later cars are built before it. If you check most of the early car Vin #'s from Van Nuys they don't run in a consecutive date order. You will always find a low vin [sic] with a later than normal built date."

Were VIN's assigned to the order sheet when placed by dealers as suggested above?  That doesn't make sense to me.  It seems to me that wouldn't happen until production either when the paperwork hit Fisher (VIN attached to order and then mating up to body when it hit the Chevrolet side).

If the statement above is incorrect, when were the VIN's assigned?   

Was it common practice to hold cars back once assigned a VIN?  Never?  Sometimes?

FWIW, the above statement was made about '70 Camaros but I would think that GM had made few changes to the process of assigning VIN's between '69 and '70 (of course I could be wrong)
Logged
jdv69z
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 641


69 RS Z/28 52E


View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2010, 03:49:43 PM »

If the statement above is incorrect, when were the VIN's assigned?

When the body came thru the wall from Fisher to Chevrolet
 

Was it common practice to hold cars back once assigned a VIN?  Never?  Sometimes?

Chevrolet had the ability to re-arrange the sequence of production (to balance the work load on the line) in their "Body Bank". Thus VIN's did not necessarily come off the end of the assembly line in sequence, although they would have not been far apart from each other. That is my understanding.

Jimmy V.

Logged

Jimmy V.
Flowjoe
Member
***
Posts: 340


View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2010, 04:39:16 PM »

If the statement above is incorrect, when were the VIN's assigned?

When the body came thru the wall from Fisher to Chevrolet

And this was my understanding as well based upon JohnZ's article  - which I mentioned above - hence my questioning of the assertion that the VIN was assigned to the order sheet when placed by the dealer.
 

Was it common practice to hold cars back once assigned a VIN?  Never?  Sometimes?

Chevrolet had the ability to re-arrange the sequence of production (to balance the work load on the line) in their "Body Bank". Thus VIN's did not necessarily come off the end of the assembly line in sequence, although they would have not been far apart from each other. That is my understanding.

Jimmy V.



This is my take also based upon JohnZ's article - it clearly flies in the face of the assertion quoted in my initial post.
Logged
Z71
Member
***
Posts: 80


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2010, 06:53:35 PM »

The VIN could not be assigned to a car that was not yet in production.  And the order was just that an order, it was not a car till it arrived on the final assembly line.

The way I read the report, the body bank had a staging area and the VIN were assigned once the body came into the bank.  Then the bodies were released onto the line irregardless of the vin sequence assigned but by work content.   If you got 20 cars in the bank but only 1 line to feed, some are going to get released before others.  They had job numbers they worked with so the vin sequence never meant anything to the assembly line operations, that was just a legal thing they had to install.  Chevrolet released monthly reports showing the last VIN built during the previous month. 

That statement might be correct as it pertains to the body number BUT not the VIN IMO.
Logged

Mike
Owned new (and still have stashed away) LOL
1966 Impala SS396
1970 Chevelle SS454
1972 El Camino SS350
1973 Chevelle SS350
2002 Trans Am WS6 Ram Air
KurtS
CRG Coordinator
*****
Posts: 3209


View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2010, 07:59:10 PM »

You guys are correct and that statement is a bunch of hooey. Smiley
Once a car was started, it was built. And in the middle of the process, the VIN was assigned and attached.

Now, if he's talking order /body #'s (69+), maybe, a little.....
Logged

Kurt S
CRG
Flowjoe
Member
***
Posts: 340


View Profile Email
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2010, 08:24:47 PM »

You guys are correct and that statement is a bunch of hooey. Smiley
Once a car was started, it was built. And in the middle of the process, the VIN was assigned and attached.

Now, if he's talking order /body #'s (69+), maybe, a little.....

That's what I thought - thanks guys
Logged
vtfb68
Member
***
Posts: 366


View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2010, 10:43:38 AM »

Kurt,
 How would the plant labor strikes affect the above mentioned process?  Would cars have been caught in limbo and have odd body, build, and VIN numbers?  Do you know the weeks involved?
  Thank you,
  Victor
Logged

05C LA RS/SS U2 712 L34 M21 BR
08E LA RS Y2 749 L30 M35
"In the pursuit of accuracy"
Mark
CRG Member
*****
Posts: 941



View Profile Email
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2010, 12:44:48 PM »

Wouldn't affect them at all.  Think of the VINs being assigned on an assembly line, car reaches the point the VIN is assigned a number plate is stamped placed on the car and the car rolls on, next one pulls up increment the VIN by one and repeat the process.  If the plant shut down there would be about 2 days worth of production already on the Fisher side of the plant (in the case or Norwood) so when the issue was resolved, be it labor, or equipment related and the line restarts the next body thru gets the next VIN number, no gap in numbers.  Now if the strike went on for a couple of weeks, you may get a gap in the build week numbers (a jump from say 10A to 10C or D) but body numbers were already assigned, and the VINs had ot been issued yet so you never see any huge jumps the sequences.
Logged

Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11
DONCZ28
Member
***
Posts: 77


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2010, 07:24:07 PM »

Does any one know why, all  June 1969 body's,  cowl tags are  stamped  06A ,   NOT   06B,  06C, 06D.........?
Logged
william
CRG Member
*****
Posts: 1168


View Profile Email
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2010, 07:20:54 AM »

Does any one know why, all  June 1969 body's,  cowl tags are  stamped  06A ,   NOT   06B,  06C, 06D.........?

Fisher body either did not bother to re-set the tag stampers or released all 13,682 orders during the first week. It was not unusual for them to skip a week. Norwood was either shut down the last week of June or just built Firebirds.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 11:46:27 AM by KurtS » Logged
jdv69z
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 641


69 RS Z/28 52E


View Profile Email
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2010, 11:50:24 AM »

So were there other weeks during the year which not used? I've sort of been compiling some data on VIN's, to build week, and there seem to be some which were not used. I was thinking that might be the case, but wasn't sure. Either that or I just hadn't seen any cars which had a trim tag with certain build weeks yet.

Jimmy V.
Logged

Jimmy V.
KurtS
CRG Coordinator
*****
Posts: 3209


View Profile Email
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2010, 05:11:05 PM »

Some weeks have real low volumes, some weeks weren't used. It varies by plant and year.
Logged

Kurt S
CRG
Z71
Member
***
Posts: 80


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2010, 09:27:04 AM »

Does any one know why, all  June 1969 body's,  cowl tags are  stamped  06A ,   NOT   06B,  06C, 06D.........?

More than likely just a big screw up by a new employee. 
Logged

Mike
Owned new (and still have stashed away) LOL
1966 Impala SS396
1970 Chevelle SS454
1972 El Camino SS350
1973 Chevelle SS350
2002 Trans Am WS6 Ram Air
jdv69z
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 641


69 RS Z/28 52E


View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2010, 11:35:26 AM »

Some weeks have real low volumes, some weeks weren't used. It varies by plant and year.

I was only  compiling the 69 Camaro at Norwood. Was interested in narrowing down the build week/VIN correlation more closely. But if is known that certain weeks were not used, it is another way to spot a fake tag.

Jimmy V.
Logged

Jimmy V.
srode
Member
***
Posts: 173



View Profile Email
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2011, 07:01:58 AM »

I have seen more than one 1969 2D cars with VINs that should be March built according to the cross reference of VIN to firewall tag information here, and they appear to be legitimate from all other information.  How does that happen?  Was 3A not used perhaps?
Logged

Steve - 02D Z11 and a Plain Jane hardtop
Mark
CRG Member
*****
Posts: 941



View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2011, 12:29:33 PM »

Because Feb 28th was a friday, that was the 2D build week.  At midnight on 2/28 someone on GMs side of the plant recorded the VIN of the car that just left the assembly line for the shipper and thats the number reported as the last VIN assembled in February.  At that time there was another days worth of production sitting on the GM side of the plant with 2D on the cowl tag, and another day and a halfs production on the Fisher side of the plant with 02D on the cowl tag.  All those cars (about 2500) will show up as 02D cars but they were actually built in arch, and some of them will have March dated components.
Logged

Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11
KurtS
CRG Coordinator
*****
Posts: 3209


View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2011, 04:45:33 PM »

Again, it all depended on when Fisher wanted to change the date on the tag. The date code obviously wasn't real important to them. I'm not convinced that it didn't sometimes change it mid-week.
Logged

Kurt S
CRG
srode
Member
***
Posts: 173



View Profile Email
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2011, 06:32:14 PM »

So 5000 or 6000 over the last VIN listed for February on a 2D would not be unlikely?
Logged

Steve - 02D Z11 and a Plain Jane hardtop
Mark
CRG Member
*****
Posts: 941



View Profile Email
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2011, 08:18:26 PM »

That would be a little excessive for February which just happened to end on a friday in 69, but not out of the possibility if the actual calendar month ended on a tuesday or wednesday.

GM gave Fisher the orders for the cars to be built in advance so fisher could plan their work.  Did they give it to them  a days production (912 cars) a week ahead, or 2 weeks I don't think anyone here knows that.  Fisher would take those orders, which in 69 had an order number that became the body number for each car, but in 67 and 68 Fisher assigned a sequentially assigned number to each order (which became the body number) so they could track the body.  Fisher then assigned a build week that the car was to be built in, which was generally in the same order they were received)  Say the order for 1 days worth of cars was delivered to Fisher on Feb 28th and they were going to be built 1 week from that time.  The trim tags were prepared with either a sequential number (67/68) for each car or the order number as the body number and whatever other option and color info needed for the order.  At this point this group of tags was set aside and the next 912 tags were prepared, and ultimatelyt there should have been 5 groups of 912 cars in a single build week.  As the time arrived to build the cars the scheduler at Fisher would go thru a days production worth of 912 tags and regroup them based on Fishers build restraints.  He had to look at things like convertibles, vinyl tops, possible RS equipment and anything that would take extra time on the assembly line.  You certainly wouldn't want to see 2 convertibles right after each other, as it took extra time to install a convertible top, same with vinyl tops.  If I had to guess you would never see 2 convertible closer than 8 or 10 bodys apart, maybe a little less for a vinyl top car.  I have not seen any data to indicate that there was any grouping based on color.  ie he did not go thru the order to find all of the red cars and put them together.  So the scheduler takes his 912 sequential order body numbers and shufflles them up to meet whatever construction constraints Fisher had, so maybe the car with body number 001 gets shuffled so it follows car 027, and car 030 gets brought up to the front of the line, also if GM decided they need a particular car to be built earlier than any others they could request Fisher move it up (or back).  At this point the scheduler assigns the work order number to the car (this is the W/O number on the LOS tags) that indicates the position of the body in that days assembly order, (ie body 1 thru 912) and releases it to the plant for building.  (theres a bunch more stuff that happens in the background like ensuring the parts for these cars are on hand, you have adequate paint to paint the bodies, interior components of the correct colors and styles are on hand, etc.  On the day of assembly those tags are delivered to the floor and the bodies are built in the order specified.  It took about a day to a day and 1/2 for a body tub to go thru Fishers side of the plant.  Once the completed rear half of the bodies were completed by Fisher and sent over to GM in whatever order they started out in they were given a sequential VIN.  first car got the first VIN then each one incremented up by one.  GM had a body bank of 6 lines that held about 72 cars total that allowed them to reorder the cars based on their build contraints things like RS, consoles, SS's and Z28's (due to stripeing requirments) that took extra time would be divided out and then metered back into the single common assembly line  so that the line would not be overloaded by having multiple highly optioned cars arriving at an assembly point one after the other.  This configuration of the line means that the cars did not progress down the GM side of the plant in purely increasing sequential order.  They were almost in order but the higher optioned cars, console cars, RS/SS's probably trailed by a few VINs, maybe 6 to 8 depending as they were fed back into the assembly line.  The only point in time that the cars were purely in increasing sequential order was when they came thru from Fisher and before they got to the Scheduling bank.  It took about a day for the car to go from the scheduling bank to being driven out the back door and getting delivered to the shipper that was going to deliver it to the dealer.  So you can see that there is a delay from the reported last VIN of the month and the end of the actual build week stamped on the tag, that could probably be as much as 4500 cars, depending on what day of the week the month actually ended on.
Logged

Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11
KurtS
CRG Coordinator
*****
Posts: 3209


View Profile Email
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2011, 09:51:13 PM »

I see Mark was feeling verbose today... Wink

Two things - noone knows where the end-of-the-month VIN was on the line (and the # isn't always consistent with real data - see all the caveats in the end-of-the-month VIN list).
And I recall that JohnZ indicated that bodies were batched by color to save paint via reduced nozzle cleanout/changeover. Hard to have enought data to see that pattern though. Smiley
Logged

Kurt S
CRG
JohnZ
CRG Member
*****
Posts: 4103


View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2011, 10:11:28 AM »

And I recall that JohnZ indicated that bodies were batched by color to save paint via reduced nozzle cleanout/changeover. Hard to have enought data to see that pattern though. Smiley

Color-batching was in its infancy in the late 60's; it was practiced to some extent, but didn't really come into its own until the late 70's when plants were measured against each other in terms of the precise amount of consumables (paint, thinner, rags, gloves, masking material, sealer, phosphate chemicals, etc.) used per car produced; it became one of the metrics of plant efficiency by which the plants were judged.
Logged

'69 Z/28
Fathom Green
CRG
GaryL
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 538


Marilyn and me

gandmal
View Profile Email
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2011, 12:00:13 AM »

So 5000 or 6000 over the last VIN listed for February on a 2D would not be unlikely?

My 02D is 5947 past the last recorded VIN. I have a March diff. They must have been waiting for 3.73 posi rear ends.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 12:22:31 AM by GaryL » Logged

Gary

Lemans Blue X33. DZ, M20, manual steering. Only BU code rear end is original.
srode
Member
***
Posts: 173



View Profile Email
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2011, 04:59:11 AM »

Gary, I've seen more than one in that range, almost like they missed changing the date for a week or more for some reason, or they were missing parts to complete cars.
Logged

Steve - 02D Z11 and a Plain Jane hardtop
firstgenaddict
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1235



View Profile WWW
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2011, 11:09:28 AM »

The 10D I am restoring now has a first week November VIN. It's a few thousand in best I remember. Very typical for end of the month fisher bodies to have next months Norwood VIN assignments.
Logged

James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
Pages: 1 2 [All] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.087 seconds with 17 queries.