Author Topic: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body  (Read 6277 times)

black69

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
    • my_car
Ok, so I know some folks thought I was nutts, saying my survivor paint black 69 L78 has a black painted tail that is a different paint than the body.

So I went and checked the black survivor paint 1969 427 baldwin motion camaro at the muscle car nationals this weekend (a car converted from a L78), and it was like looking at the same car as mine.

The paint masking marks that run at a 45 degree angle inside the trunk opening area were clearer on that car than mine. There were other details around the tail lights that indicated there were 2 different paints used.  I showed it to the original owner of the car, and his nephew (who owns it now), and they agreed 100% with me that it was painted, and their words were it was a different duller black than the body paint.

What was also interesting, was the sheer amount of orange peal on the bulk of the tail panel on the flat surface between the tail lights.  It was EXACTLY the same as on my car.  Both our cars have non orange peal trunk lids, D80 spoilers, but the tail panels look really different in terms of paint texture (rivers of orange peal, no drips though).  

The car's VIN is in the 600K range, mine is in the 656K range, so they are a fair amount apart to say this did not just happen in one week of production. Both are Norwood cars.

The car has the same red hockey stripe paint and sticker attributes as my car too.  The stencil used for the painted stripe left behind small tic marks ever inch or so, and that was neat to see (only some original paint cars will show this).

I think it would be of reasonable consideration to now say black ss 396 cars got their tail panels painted following the standard process.
triple black 69L78 red hockey stripe

KurtS

  • CRG Coordinator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3521
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2010, 08:33:10 PM »
I didn't think you were nuts. I just haven't had the time to follow up on this. And finding another original paint car was the big follow-up. Great that you were able to find one.
I've talked with several people who have repainted black SS396 cars and said there was no black tail panel paint. The difficulty in seeing the tape line shows why they thought there wasn't a black-out treatment.
Do you have a pic or two of that car's black-out?
Kurt S
CRG

black69

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
    • my_car
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2010, 10:48:57 PM »
Kurt, I did not have the right camera to take the picture and it was not good timing for the baldwin motion display of that guys car (Joel rosen was in the area).

I asked one of the guys over at super car work shop to go look at it to vindicate, as well as Darryn costello (one of the camaro judges). Darryn has seen this on my car so I hoped he could go check it out. Darryn actually pointed out to me how the line shows up inside the lip (on the other side of the rubber seal) if you look for it.  I figured with the vintage certification of the car, this would have gotten discovered, so maybe steve s has some vintage certification pictures. 

I hope to get a picture from the owner of the other car when he gets it home. He 'owes me' because my recommendation of using black turtle wax made his car look great :) 

Here is mine while we work on getting a good picture of his.  Natural sunlight really helps show the difference, over flouresent lighting.

-bob


maroman

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2010, 11:21:37 PM »
I see a milky line at about a 45 degree angle, is that what you mean? Could it be enamal paint for the rear panel over lacquer body paint?
Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new

Charley

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 438
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2010, 03:40:43 AM »
Crap..I was there and didn't think to look at it. Did you look at the low mile green L78 in the Vintage certification area ? I will post pics when I get them downsized.The gloss in your pic looks the same. Very glossy, not satin or semi. Just a tiny bit duller than full gloss.

JohnZ

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4252
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2010, 06:40:11 PM »
Could it be enamal paint for the rear panel over lacquer body paint?

The only enamel paint in the plant was for the wheels; everything else was lacquer.
'69 Z/28
Fathom Green
CRG

black69

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
    • my_car
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2010, 07:52:26 PM »
Charley, I wish you could have gone and looked at that black car too.  I saw that green 67 car (this is when I asked the SCWs folks looking at it to go look at the black car).  

I looked at that car, and what appeared different between that non 69 car and the 2 black 69s was the amount of orange peel.  

I think for now, I have 2 nails ready to go in the coffin for the painted tail panel topic for a black car.  But here is a another potential nail to consider (orange peel cound prove a second coat was applied?):

Orange peel is defined as 'too much paint' or 'non ideal painting technique' if you look at the definition of that term.  These 2 black cars I am refering to have it pretty bad, there has to be an explanation for it (my speculation there is a second full paint coat).  

As a side note: If I were a judge of an original paint car, and it landed between a 600K to 660K VIN, I would expect to see some form of orange peel on the tail for a SS 396 car.  I would ponder if I did not see it. Its like once you see the defects left behind on a hockey stripe done with an original stencil. Once you see that, you wonder about cars you don't see it on. That other black car made 60K units before mine, had all the same stripe aspects which was so cool to see.






black69

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
    • my_car
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2010, 07:54:28 PM »
I see a milky line at about a 45 degree angle, is that what you mean?

Yes! join my fan club!

maroman

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2010, 10:35:55 PM »
Thanks John. That eliminates that idea.

Charley

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 438
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2010, 11:07:12 PM »
green 68 L78 with 15K miles...Amazing car.

Charley

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 438
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2010, 11:09:22 PM »
last pic was for another subject. It just shows green paint showing the car was painted with the floor plugs in.

paceme

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 475
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2010, 01:44:35 AM »
Regarding the Black Motion car, we Vintage Certified the car in 2009 and found that the tail panel had the same 80% glossed paint applied as found on all 396 Camaros.  

BTW the green 68 rs/ss L78 has led a pampered life and was as original and well preserved as it gets. Really just a stunning car. Take notice it's a stripe delete car.  
Steve Shauger
Vintage Certification™ Program, Providing Recognition And Status To Unrestored Vehicles. Website www.vintagecertification.com

black69

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
    • my_car
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2010, 05:10:46 AM »
Here is a picture of my car, that shows the paint difference relative to the body.  It only shows this tone difference in direct sunlight (which is how I discovered all of this in the first place).  Get the car out of direct sunlight beating down on it, and it just goes un-noticed, and it blends in perfectly with the black body paint. Somebody has to know what that paint mix formula is.



my car



here's a picture of the tail of the baldwin car, care of someone else.  I have more photos on my new phone and will post once I download them (they show just the orange peel, did not get the paint shadow lines). 



« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 06:20:07 AM by black69 »

firstgenaddict

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1402
    • View Profile
    • Groome Family Automobiles
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2011, 05:45:32 PM »
Exactly how may different blacks were there in the booth where the Tail pan was painted?
Someone please add or correct if I am wrong here...
This would have been done in the Touch up booth, correct?
1. Code 10 gloss black exterior body color
2. Interior Semi gloss
3. Interior suede
4. black out paint for firewall


James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
 
Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://plus.google.com/photos/112392262205377424364/albums?banner=pwa

JohnZ

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4252
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2011, 04:56:05 PM »
Exactly how may different blacks were there in the booth where the Tail pan was painted?
Someone please add or correct if I am wrong here...
This would have been done in the Touch up booth, correct?
1. Code 10 gloss black exterior body color
2. Interior Semi gloss
3. Interior suede
4. black out paint for firewall




#4 was also used for Z-21 rocker panel blackout, and most likely for BB tail panels too.

vtfb68

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 406
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2011, 02:10:30 AM »
Should we . . . ASSUME 67 and 68's follow the same pratice?
  Victor
05C LA RS/SS U2 712 L34 M21 BR
08E LA RS Y2 749 L30 M35
"In the pursuit of accuracy"

firstgenaddict

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1402
    • View Profile
    • Groome Family Automobiles
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2011, 09:37:55 PM »
How often did someone grab the wrong gun?

Bob, yours looks like the tail is "more gray" than the body color, or is what appears to be a color difference nothing more than a gloss difference?


bcmiller

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 584
    • View Profile
I think those two cars were either anomalies, repainted at some point (possibly at the dealership) or maybe touched up at the factory (goes with the orange peel idea) and wrong gun was used.  Guy that did the back tail panels was probably used to picking a certain gun and picked the one he used for other non-Black cars.  This was assembly line stuff.  The guys developed habits after doing things a certain way thousands of times.  Throw something slightly different into the mix and errors happened.
1968 Camaro SS 396 - now 468 BBC, M21, 12 bolt.
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016
Bryon

william

  • CRG Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1257
    • View Profile
I've seen gloss on rockers also.

black69

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
    • my_car
Updating the thread:

I had my car (triple black L78) at the survivor show in st charles IL this past sunday (same place they hold bloomington gold for the corvettes) and had my car's tail panel looked at by a judge.  He is also a judge that owns a yenko and is his opinions are well respected.  I finally felt like I am at a turning point when someone with a reputation finally saw what I have seen and believe in.

Anyways he saw the masking paint lines in the trunk (that run 45 degrees off the corners), continues into the trunk on the other side of the seal, and luckily the tail panel was in full sunlight (11-12am), southern exposure.  He saw it was a different shade of black as the body (in the area by the tail lights), and he confirmed my car was original paint (he does not doubt that).  It was the perfect setting, as natural sunlight really shows the paint difference (flourescent lighting does not, and that is what you have at car shows or in a restoration shop).

Every little bit helps to get the site updated with the truth:  black ss 396 cars DID get their tail panels painted a different shade of black (than the body).  There continues to be my car and the black 69 motion 427 survivor car out there that has been to a few high profile shows. I feel I have done the detective work providing 2 cars with same exact details matching each other, vins are not same day vins so it dispells any notion of the wrong gun being picked up.  Judging is the only way to close this chapter. To me my car should have the mometum (finally) to draw more judges into it now that ONE believes in it. Car has its original trunk seal and brown alignment dot, there is no signs of a tail panel being repainted anywhere.  He could not find any traces of anything in the trunk area to not be original anywhere. 

Other stuff on gloss:  there was a 69 L89 camaro there being judged as a survivor (dark green, paint was really rough on the body).  The tail panel had the same gloss as mine (80-85 %).  Super shiney.  Same orange peel.



paceme

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 475
    • View Profile
The Motion Camaro you speak of has been Vintage Certificatin and our findings are as you state; the tail panel was applied with a different (second operation) gloss (approximately 85% ) than the rest of the car. Although your car has not been through our Vintage Certification (We would like to see it at MCACN), I did inspect the outside of the car when you had it at Chevy Vettefest a few years ago, and it looks like it was painted identical to the Motion car. These cars speak for themselves. Hope to see you at MCACN. The Vintage Certification team will be there.

black69

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
    • my_car
steve, thanks for stating that.  I do know Kurt was giving my car some recognition too. It would be nice to get the site updated for those doing black SS 396 car restorations, survivor judging, etc. 2 survivor cars vs no other survivor cars proving otherwise (I would love to know where one of those cars are), seems to make a strong case for an update.  With 2% of the SS 396s being black, it is going to be rare to find another data point. 

I did put myself in the painters position, and did look at this another way.  How would I know the paint is really flat or not? Its in a gun. All I know is its tail panel paint for SS396 cars.  But by being the painter, I had to maintain the gun to paint tail panels, I would know it would be a different paint, or has the flattening agent in it. So there is the easy answer, that painter knew it had a flattening agent in it, and thus it is different that the 100% gloss tuxedo black body.  We all may have been looking at this from a finished product perspective, but you have to put yourself in the painters position to come to what really happened.  He knew that tail panel paint has some flattening aspect to it. No doubt in my mind.

NoYenko

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 329
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2011, 03:40:54 AM »
Black69
I just wanted to thank you for your help & letting me take pictures of your magnificent car. The picture shows a greater definition of the two black paints used than I saw with my eyes. George

NoYenko

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 329
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2011, 03:41:59 AM »
Nice trunk

m22mike

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2011, 08:50:28 PM »
I also got to meet and talk with Bob @ MCACN. Bob thank you for putting up with me and my flashlight, just could not stop looking at this wonderfull survivor.
 I was also intrigued by the OE black out on the rear panel of your car, tape lines and all.

Thanks Mike
X66 L78 M22 4.10 Deluxe Threads, PNT 10/10, Red Hockey stripe

black69

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
    • my_car
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2011, 07:12:01 AM »
hey george and mike, thanks for the compliments. Had a great time at that show, meeting camaro folks. yes, once someone sees the tape lines on the other side of the weather strip inside the trunk, its pretty obvious.

So far the unrestored Motion 427 car (converted from an L78) and mine are 2 examples (vintage/survivor display or vintage/survivor judged in front of a lot of folks), and no one has stepped up with a black survivor 'without' the tape lines yet to counter any of this.

Someday.....the rules for black painted tail panels will change, I hope....making all my insanity worth it.  Definitely stuck my neck out there.

-bob

mickeystoys69RSSS

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 255
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2011, 06:51:02 PM »
"Other stuff on gloss:  there was a 69 L89 camaro there being judged as a survivor (dark green, paint was really rough on the body).  The tail panel had the same gloss as mine (80-85 %).  Super shiney.  Same orange peel."

As mentioned above. I think I have come across a dark green Fathom Green 57 code to be exact car where the black out tail pan has a gloss to it.


Kelley W King

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 363
    • View Profile
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2011, 07:55:13 PM »
Even though these are original paint cars, who knows how much polishing they have gotten over the years.
69 Z28 RS Scuncio Hi Performance
69 SS L78
67 SS Chevelle
64 Corvette
66 GTO Tiger Gold
77 Trans Am Special Edition

black69

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
    • my_car
Re: 1969 BLACK 396 cars got a different black tail panel paint than the body
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2011, 10:56:17 PM »
"Other stuff on gloss:  there was a 69 L89 camaro there being judged as a survivor (dark green, paint was really rough on the body).  The tail panel had the same gloss as mine (80-85 %).  Super shiney.  Same orange peel."

As mentioned above. I think I have come across a dark green Fathom Green 57 code to be exact car where the black out tail pan has a gloss to it.



I saw that green L89 car this past summer being judged, and the paint on my tail panel matched that car.  I think the only thing repainted on that car was the front drivers fender.  paint was rough.  tail panel had orange peel and was about 80-85% gloss.

As far as my car, the original owner to my car came to the show.  he said he only used hand waxing on it, and I myself never took a machine to it.  Just hand waxing.  You can strip the wax off on the tail panel and its still shiney.

I plan to finally get those pictures of the motion car downloaded and posted here this next week.  Had them stuck in an old iphone. Those pictures will back up the shine aspect (85%) and the orange peel galore.

When I see some of these restored cars, with flat paint looking tail panels, they are just wrong. 

-bob