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Author Topic: Late model roller cam in early block  (Read 3662 times)
mopar346
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« on: November 20, 2010, 09:06:29 AM »

I have come across some info on stalling a late model roller cam (ZZ4) in an early block with the late spider and lifters. In theory it doesn't appear to be a big deal. Has anyone done/tried it? Any thoughts or advice?
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Mark
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2010, 09:28:25 AM »

I have a late model hot LT4 roller cam in my car, but I used the retrofit lifters.  Theres no place to attach the spiders to the block to hold them in place.  You would have to drill and tap the block, or make some kind of a bracket attached to the bottom of the intake to hold them down.
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Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11
mopar346
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2010, 09:57:08 AM »

What is the specs on your cam? No issue with mating retro lifters with the new cam? Hows the ideal and vacumm? Want RPM does it operate at? What kinda HP does it make? Did you have to do any clearance work in the lifter galley above the lifters? It doesn't seem that drilling and tapping the block would be a big deal. If that is the only mod required, I'm all in.

Thanks, I know its a lot of questions but inquiring minds want to know.
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BlackoutSteve
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2010, 04:15:21 PM »

You'll need to check to see if the late lifters that you may wish to run will be compatible with the early block. Late blocks have taller lifter bores and other details may be different also.
Another thing to consider is early blocks that had flat tappets have lifter bores that were not indexed as accurately and the tooling was old as well.
This can cause a new roller on a new cam to continually steer sideways or tilted or skewed or all 3 until it fails.. Rollers need really accurate lifter bores. Just something to consider.
If you insist on a roller and have the block apart, having your lifter bores rebored and indexed accuarately by a good shop and bronze bushed back to spec is what I would strongly recomend.

Unless you intend on a serious solid roller, a solid flat tappet will make all the power you need for a heap less cashola.
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mopar346
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2010, 05:45:50 PM »

Not gonna get to stupid on the lift, mainly want the RPM or zip of a roller, i.e. less rotating resistance.

Thanks for the input, the motor is going to the machine shop MOnday so I will have to make a decision and get the pricing.
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BlackoutSteve
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2010, 10:28:40 PM »

You won't notice much/any additional "zip" between a roller and a flat tappet.
Between solid and hydraulic, yes. Solids are much more responsive whether flat or roller.
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mopar346
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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2010, 07:51:39 AM »

Thank you, I have run many solids, but never a roller. The ones I have been around just seemed very crisp, although there were other aspects to the engines. From what I have heard they are more responsive.

Thanks again for the input, that is what I need to make my decision.

Anybody else have experience.
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Mark
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2010, 08:04:20 AM »

Mine is a 218/226 duration .525" lift (with 1.6 rockets) on 112 degree lobe centers.  Engine idles at 700 rpm and pulls 16.5 to 17" of vacuum.  My car is an automatic with 3.07 rear gears.  Cam is rated for something like 1000 rpm to 4000 rpm.  I did nothing to the block, just new cam gears and chains, a cam button, new pushrods, and while you don't need it i replaced the drive gear on my distributor.  I cut the ears of the cam retainer plate and used it as a spacer to keep the gear from rubbing on the front face of the block.  Lingenfelter sells a kit with a spacer (essentially a big washer) and cam button and retainer bolts (you have to use allen head bolts if you use a cam button because theres not enough clearance between the button and the hex head bolts.  I previously ran a stock GM 327/350 hydraulic cam in the car for years and this one idles much more smoothly and has more power at the low end.  According to Desktop Dyno it is supposed to peak near 400 HP with 450 ft lbs of torque through the stock exhaust but I don't think its that high.  Its higher than it was before though.
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Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11
mopar346
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2010, 10:33:35 PM »

Ok, decision made, my builder is trading me a 350 4 bolt roller block for my block. The build will go as follows, let me know your opinions.

Forged flat tops (10:1 with 64cc heads)
ARP rod bolts
Tru roller chain
Comp Extreme Energy roller cam (.488 lift 212/218 duration) degreed
492 heads (screw in studs, guide plates, moderately ported)
Crane roller rockers (1.5s)
Moly push rods
3972116 intake (gasket match)
TBI (adapter plate)
Reporgramed Prom (taking suggestions on who)
Big tube headers and 2.5 exhaust
Factory distributor
MSD 6AL


Everything will be machined and reconditioned as normal in a build, it will NOT be balanced however but I don't intend to let it turn over 6k.

Thanks, Kevin
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BlackoutSteve
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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2010, 02:23:21 AM »

Why not balanced?

Also that roller is a hydraulic. It won't give you the "zip" that a solid will.  Wink
Good cam but pretty small. Not worth the expense of a roller if you ask me. Smiley

With 10:1 comp and 6K, you could easily go a solid in the 240-250 @0.050" range.

What rear gears and stall do you have or intend?
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mopar346
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2010, 07:38:55 AM »

Not going solid from a maintenance stand point. Roller actually really didn't add any expense to the build, since I was able to trade into the block and I had to buy a cam anyway, lifters are stock units. Not a big cam on purpose, it is going in my 17 year old son's 4X4, with no stall (1200) and 3.73 gears (but 33 inch tires). Not balanced, because they don't do that and the time and money it would take (mostly down time) for them to send it out isn't worth it.

Basically its a stock build, I got a little carried away with. Cant see building anything without forged flat tops. Since I have been kown to spray on ocassion and have trying to learn about superchargers I figured the ARPs were insurance or they wouldn't be in there. My son wanted a roller and if you have kids you know you do what you can sometimes to make them smile even it if doesn't make sense. Didn't have a decent set of heads and lucked into the 492s and a freind had the intake sitting in a corner.

I learned long ago to build a solid bottom in and make HP in the top of the motor, that way if you want to change directions later in a build it is superficial.

Any reason the combo want work well? I only want to give him so much HP.
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JohnZ
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2010, 01:58:20 PM »

383's are all about low to mid-range torque, not winding them to the moon to get power; sounds like a good match to a 4x4 truck automatic application. I'd re-think not having it balanced - it's money well-spent.
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BlackoutSteve
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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2010, 02:59:47 PM »

Not going solid from a maintenance stand point.

Don't believe the hype about lashing a solid every weekend. Anyone who does that has parts issues or is paranoid.
Good valvetrain parts will hold their clearances very well, -especially a roller where lobes wear much less than flat tappets, and you also don't/won't have monster springs giving your studs a hard time trying to stand still.

I lashed my solid flat tappet once a year. I expect to "need" to lash my solid roller less often.
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mopar346
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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2010, 06:07:04 PM »

Steve,

Thank you for the info, although I have not run a solid roller, I have run many solid cams, albeit most were years ago. Most of my stuff, as this one will be, are daily drivers collecting 50-100 miles daily, I would set mine every 2 weeks or so and they would be off, not parts issues since most lasted many years (or until I grenaded them). I am however fairly particular about everything being set at peak to perform to its fullest (in most of my stuff anyway). Solid rollers may have completely different characteristic, I don't know, but I do know I would feel obligated to check them constantly and I just don't wont that right now. AND as mentioned, I am trying to keep it reasonably moderate on performance, I just cant help myself on some items. I have a lot of seat and build time with muscle cars, just mostly old school (stock performance) and serious performance years ago, I haven't ventured into the new millium stuff and that is way I am asking questions and trying to learn. How many miles a month/year do you put on yours? I believe you mentioned your specs so I will look back at that. What cube, HP and torque are you pulling?

Thanks again, Kevin
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BlackoutSteve
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2010, 04:22:04 PM »

Admittedly my Camaro wasn't a daily driver, but did see plenty of use (and rpm) almost every weekend.
With the solid flat tappet, the valve springs were in the 140lbs seat / 450 open range, and when I removed the cam, the lifter bases were somewhat concave. That is the lash I was taking up. (New lifter bases are convex). The wear is completely normal and is accelerated with the use of heavier valve springs, and definitely a lack of zinc (which today, is probably worth mentioning).
On a roller, there is practically no lobe wear, so the need for lashing is even less. However, rollers do need (much) heavier valve springs to control their additional weight and accelerated valve motion (mine are now 260lbs seat / 650 open) and that can play a huge part in lash consistancy if your parts are not of high quality. Imagine the poor rocker studs trying to hold the rocker arms still while they push and release 650lbs at 7000 rpm.. So, I had to fit a stud girdle that ties them all in together and gives them a real chance at surviving. (Jesel shaft mounted rockers will be what I eventally do.)
Without the girdle, I would expect rocker stud failures, lash constantly all over the place as well as lifter and pushrod failures too.

(It's a 454 that made 580 with the roller.)

However!
Now that I am aware that this is a relitively low-moderate rpm, 4x4 application, you wouldn't need to go to any of that excess.
Therefore, I think the cam you are going to use is a reasonably good choice.
I was really pointing out that the "zip" you are wanting is not really found in hydraulic cams and thought is was going into a Camaro that might see some Revs.  Smiley
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Restoring my RHD 69 Jane in Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.usmuscle.com.au/Forum/showthread.php?t=2840
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