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Author Topic: Ground wire on 67 PS Rag Joint  (Read 6758 times)
MyRed67
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« on: July 10, 2010, 10:20:41 PM »

  I have an early build (11 A 66) 67 Coupe, 327 W/N-40 Power Steering.  The original Rag Joint has a ground wire on it for the turn signals.  I have not found a repro like it any where.  I am attaching a picture of the wire with one end missing. It also had rubber "caps" on the 2 studs.  Has anyone out there seen this type of Rag Joint?  Also notice stamping on the Brass end terminal.  I have seen this type for earlier 60's full-size cars.  I am interested in restoring this Rag Joint, but want to do it correctly.  I can post more pics. if needed. Thanks for any input.   
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Mike C.    NW - Illinois
JohnZ
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2010, 12:06:23 PM »

Here's a similar rag joint from a '67 Corvette which shows the stamped copper ground strap most commonly seen on pre-'71 rag joints (when they went to the steel mesh element in the rag); also shows the rubber insulators on the safety studs. I've never seen a rag joint ground with a wire between the two ends as shown in your photo.
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MyRed67
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2010, 06:38:32 PM »

Thanks JohnZ,  I did a search for 67 Corvette Steering Rag Joint, and came up with Long Island Corvette - www.licorvette.com/steering__couplers_corvette.htm  - they have coupler Repair Kits with that Copper strap included.  They also have 1 coupler that looks to have the wire, but it has both Cast flanges.  And the upper flange is nothing like that on Camaro.  I could just remove the upper flange, and use the rest of the Rag Joint.
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MyRed67
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2010, 01:04:09 AM »

 Does anyone out there recognize any of these markings?   I'm hoping to verify that this is an original 67  Rag Joint.   Thanks for any help!
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Mike C.    NW - Illinois
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2010, 08:45:40 AM »

I have a couple original 67 rag joints with the ground straps, and I think one of them has the wire like yours. I have seen that style before but it may have been aftermarket. Give me until later this afternoon and I will dig through them.............RatPack............
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MyRed67
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2010, 10:48:07 PM »

  I'm posting another pic. of the complete Rag Joint pieced back together.  I am thinking this either has to be an original, or one replaced many years ago.  1. because of all the casting markings,(I'm not seeing that on current repro's.)   2. because of the aged condition it was in when I took it off the car. 
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2010, 02:34:34 AM »

  I just came across this picture of this Rag Joint  before  I took it apart.  I did however have the 2 rubber "caps" off when I took the pic., I do still have them.
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Mike C.    NW - Illinois
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2010, 12:21:01 PM »

Jim Shea, retired Saginaw Steering Gear engineer (who posts as "JimL82" at Team Camaro), has all of those drawings and can confirm whether it's correct or not.  If you post over there, he'll probably respond.
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MyRed67
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2010, 05:45:27 PM »

Thanks JohnZ, wish we luck!
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Mike C.    NW - Illinois
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2010, 06:53:04 AM »

I have two of those rag joints with the wire like yours, and both came from 69's with power steering per the tags I attached to them when removed from the cars. I have two from 67's with manual steering and they have the stamped copper wire John shows above..............RatPack.......................
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My68SS
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2010, 10:24:40 AM »

Does anyone out there recognize any of these markings?   I'm hoping to verify that this is an original 67  Rag Joint.   Thanks for any help!

My dec '67 built '68 has the exact same markings on the bolts and flange except for the 'K7' [nothing on mine]


Here's pics of my wire. I can't see any markings on the terminal.



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Rob
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MyRed67
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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2010, 12:50:27 AM »

That is exactly what mine looks like.  Is this the original on your car?  Thanks for the reply My68SS !
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2010, 03:18:36 AM »

That is exactly what mine looks like.  Is this the original on your car?  Thanks for the reply My68SS !
Without a doubt. I've owned this car ever since it was just a 10 yo baby  Smiley
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Rob
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MyRed67
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2010, 04:05:41 PM »

  My68SS, Thanks!  I bought my car for my sons 16 th. birthday in '86, from my brother who only rescued it from an orchard.  He watched it just sit there for about 3 years, he got it running and drove it home.  Then only kept it about 3 mos. 'til  I bought it for my son.  We worked on it,and drove it as we could 'til he lost interest,about 3 years.  Then I bought it back, and it just sat in the corner of the Garage until I retired 3 years ago.  Now it's time to get it "back on the road".   
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Mike C.    NW - Illinois
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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 12:27:27 PM »

What is the solution to replacing the insulaters? They are really "chewed up" on my car, probably done on tear-down. I purchased a new after-market rag joint but no insulators came with it and I don't see a listing anywhere in after-market for them. What to do? 
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68Zproject
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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 01:28:56 PM »

Ditto
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68Z28
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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2012, 09:36:33 AM »

What is the solution to replacing the insulaters? They are really "chewed up" on my car, probably done on tear-down. I purchased a new after-market rag joint but no insulators came with it and I don't see a listing anywhere in after-market for them. What to do? 

Long Island Corvette Supply (www.licorvette.com) has them - their #18-37E.
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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2012, 10:38:34 PM »

Thanks JohnZ for the info on the insulators--I'll get them ordered.
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scoop
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« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2012, 09:06:26 PM »


are the rag joints for a 68 with power stering also have the insulators?
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big iron
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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2012, 09:11:06 PM »

Trying to contact JimL82.
I think the PIN Bumpers where a 67 Corvette thing.
Bob
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68camaroz28
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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2012, 10:37:06 PM »

You used my ol' thread at team camaro and he did respond. I also responded with this info just in case it helps.
"Maybe this will help as these are the orig. rag joints as far as I know off our 67 corvette and 68 Camaro. The only difference I remember was the Camaro joint had  smaller pin diameters. Camaro joint is on the left."



Jim's response: Drawing and comment is at http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1682861&posted=1#post1682861
"Bob,
Of all things, I have fairly good information on 1966, 68, and 69 F-car steering gears and flange and coupling assemblies. But I don't have 1967. Obviously the Camaro was not in production 1966. So the best I can do is tell you about the 1968 flange and coupling assembly.

The 1968 assembly used a ground cable with eyes on the end. I would think that the 1967 would have used the same cable. I think that the rubber bumpers were used in 1967 and possibly were eliminated sometime during 1967 production but I am not absolutely sure.

This is a drawing of the rivet cap (as it was called.) The fact that the cap is only 0.63 inches tall, I suspect that the 1967 Camaro flange and coupling assembly had rivets that were about 0.63 long and not the longer 0.75 that were used on late assemblies.

Wish that I could be of more help.
Jim"
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« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2012, 10:04:27 AM »

Looked up the coupling asm. (6.525) in my 69 P&A and all 67-69 w/P/S (7806390) as are all 67-69 wo/P/S (7806391) are the same.
Ed,
Would you mind looking up these numbers in your earlier P&A to see if they are the same? There is a revision ( 3-3-67) in the 67 AIM 9 A3 that could indicate a different coupler or flange as Jim has noted in his reply. If they are the same then probably the pin bumpers where never used on 67-69 Camaros.
Bob
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big iron
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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2012, 09:01:23 PM »

Somebody with a 68 P&A Huh Huh Huh Huh
Bob
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big iron
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« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2012, 09:15:18 PM »

 67,68 P&A Huh Huh
Bob
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big iron
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« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2012, 07:04:40 PM »

 Huh Huh Huh
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Mike S
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« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2012, 07:25:17 PM »

Hi Bob,

    Are you asking if the pins used rubber bumpers on Camaros?

Mike
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big iron
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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2012, 12:17:19 PM »

Mike,
Yes, the 67's could have had them but maybe not sometime after after the first of the year. A part # check in a 66 or 67 P&A could give us an answer, but I only have a 69 P&A.
Look at reply 21.
Does yours have pin bumpers?
Thanks for the pictures. Grin
Bob
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Mike S
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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2012, 12:42:29 PM »

Hi Bob,

  When I restored my 67 ragtop in the 80's I removd the manual and installed a P/S gear box w/ rag joint from a '69 Camaro.
The Julian date on the 69 steering box is stamped 240 8
I since removed it and reinstalled the original manual steering box on the '67 but never sold the 69 yet so here is a picture of that rag joint.
It has the rubber bumpers though the upper shaft rubber has been worn away and the thick base is all that is left.
The P/N 780047X was readable except for the last digit which could be a 9 or a 0 (the rubber is nicked)
 As for the ground, my 67 manual joint uses the copper strip and never had any rubber 'bumpers'.

Mike
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big iron
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« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2012, 12:59:50 PM »

What about your 67 LOS. build, it has original P/S correct?
Bob
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Steve68
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« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2012, 01:18:27 PM »

October 66 P&A:  67 Camaro w/ PS. Flange assy., w/ coupling, lower 5699226 (removed 1/69)

Same info as above (for 67) in October 68 P&A

October 67 P&A:  68 Camaro w/PS.  Flange assy., w/ coupling, lower 7803564 (use 7806390 7/69)

Steve
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big iron
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« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2012, 05:40:00 PM »

Looks like there could be 3 versions of the P/S coupling.
Steve, I appreciate your effort.
Bob
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Mike S
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« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2012, 08:45:53 PM »

What about your 67 LOS. build, it has original P/S correct?
Bob
Hi Bob,
 Correct.....Original pump. Attached is a picture of it with the rubber bumper completely intact.
Julian date on P/S box is 032 7
So it looks like they were used in 67 (this picture) and up to early 69 (based on previous pictures I posted).

Mike
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« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2012, 04:05:19 PM »

Mike,
Good picture, just what I was looking for.
Looking at the picture, what is the finish on the gray brackets (for a better word) under the bolts and nuts? Must be galvanized to have held up for so long.
Is there a copper colored bolt and nut as seen on so many rebuilt units?
I think you should start another thread with your 67 P/S coupling picture and maybe some info on restoration service parts. Grin
Bob
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« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2012, 06:34:11 PM »

Hi Bob,

 That plating looks to be either cad or zinc. I'd go with cad though because it held up nicely. Just a guess.
There is no copper anything besides the metal strap. The bolts and nuts are steel (looks black oxide).
 Many replacements now use a copper bolt. I haven't seen one in person so I suspect those are copper plated bolts. IMO, an all copper bolt and nut would be too soft
compared to steel under shear loads so I doubt it would be used in such a critical area.

Mike
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randfr
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« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2012, 10:43:15 PM »

Here is a photo with the original rag joint (on the right) from my 1967 RS with power steering and a replacement rag joint I recently ordered.  I have read this thread and others like it and think I understand that the ground strap originally was to insure that the horn worked properly.  But I can't figure out (conclusively) from anywhere whether or not the replacement (that has the wire mesh embedded in it...it felt like a porcupine when i picked it up from the box!) will work or not.

any final thoughts on the original question regarding utility of the ground strap?  can the old ground strap be lifted out and placed on the new joint?  the old joint is formed so that the ends of the ground strap lay flush.

thanks
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JohnZ
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« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2012, 11:21:53 AM »

But I can't figure out (conclusively) from anywhere whether or not the replacement (that has the wire mesh embedded in it...it felt like a porcupine when i picked it up from the box!) will work or not.

The wire mesh embedded in the "rag" element will work fine to provide the ground path for the horn; it replaced the separate copper ground strap in production in the early 70's, and in Service replacement rag joint assemblies as well.
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« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2012, 10:43:53 PM »

so i installed the rag joint.  nevermind that i had to undo the steering linkages to drop the steering box to make enough room to insert the rag joint....

here is an image of the result. i've compared it to other photos here and there (and the AIM) but could not find any info on how much "flex" is allowed in the rubber disk.  some photos show absolutely no flex toward the firewall or towards the steering gear, some do.  as in the attached photo, the ends of my installed rag joint flexes slightly towards the firewall.  i also do not have the rubber caps on the stop pins.  my stop pins do not stick as far thru the slots as some photos.  any known standards for this?

thanks,
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« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2012, 10:48:44 PM »

just recalled...i took a photo of the old rag joint before disassembling the car last year.  here is the "before" photo.  after getting over the layers of gunk, it appears that the old rag joint didn't flex and more of the stop pins stuck through the flange before i took it apart.  now i'm wondering how to adjust or if it is even necessary.
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Mike S
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« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2012, 12:21:03 AM »

 Check out UPC 9/A6 (67 AIM) for directions on adjusting the steering column in/out.
It's very easy to adjust.

Mike
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Sauron327
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« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2012, 05:21:59 AM »

so i installed the rag joint.  nevermind that i had to undo the steering linkages to drop the steering box to make enough room to insert the rag joint....
That's not necessary. Just pull the steering column back.
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randfr
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« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2012, 11:53:11 AM »

i gave it my best shot to the steering column (take the 3 bolts out from under the steering column and gently pulled on the steering column) to build the room but it didn't want to give.  lacking any other ideas (and the engine is still out) i just opted to drop the steering box instead of yanking something out of the steering column.

any tips on budging the steering column in order to adjust?  did i miss something under the dash?  does the rag joint even need to be adjusted?
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JohnZ
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« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2012, 12:03:41 PM »

i gave it my best shot to the steering column (take the 3 bolts out from under the steering column and gently pulled on the steering column) to build the room but it didn't want to give.  lacking any other ideas (and the engine is still out) i just opted to drop the steering box instead of yanking something out of the steering column.

any tips on budging the steering column in order to adjust?  did i miss something under the dash?  does the rag joint even need to be adjusted?

You have to remove the plastic trim cover under the dash and loosen the clamp bolts that hold the steel upper and lower covers together on the column in order to move the column fore-aft. See your Assembly Manual, section 9, sheet A4. The rag joint element should be flat, not distorted in either direction. Original "rag" elements had seven laminations, and most of the reproductions have only four.
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