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Author Topic: Muncie shifter change  (Read 5522 times)
vtfb68
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« on: June 14, 2010, 07:47:55 PM »

Does anybody have a good idea when the shifter levers stamped "MUNCIE" were replaced with the non-stamped lever ?
  Victor
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2010, 08:28:27 PM »

I think you are talking about usage.  The Muncie was printed on hipo cars, basically with Muncie transmissions.  The non-stamped shifters were used on low performance cars, basically ones with the Saginaw transmissions.
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68Z28
vtfb68
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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2010, 10:24:16 PM »

I am referring to a 1968 05C factory BB car. I believe sometime before the end of the 1968 production run the factory switched to a plain levered muncie shifter, possibly the warranty shifter that the dealers were already replacing the "MUNCIE" shifter with due to torque twist issues.
  Victor
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JoeC
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2010, 05:34:06 AM »

The 67-68 shifter 4 speed body is the same for the Muncie and the Saginaw. The Saginaw used a plain stick and different rods and other parts but the shifter body is the same.
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philip
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2010, 07:09:06 AM »

i confirm
my 67 L30M20 with a saginaw gear box have a MUNCIE shifter with the name engraved .
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2010, 09:51:19 AM »

Shifters are covered here:

http://www.camaros.org/trans.shtml#Shifters
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JoeC
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2010, 06:53:08 PM »

The last item in the 1969 shifter section is incorrect. It states....

"Small-block and big-block cars used unique shifter mounting plates bolted to the tailhousing, versus the aftermarket bracket mounted with U-bolts around the tailhousing"

The 69 Hurst/Muncie aftermarket bracket bolted to the tailhousing similar to the factory 69 bracket but was the same for BB and SB.
Hurst did not make an installation kit for the 69 with Saginaw

The 67-68 Hurst aftermarket bracket mounted between the trans mount and trans and had one U-bolt around the tailhousing.
Same bracket was used for Muncie and Saginaw for 67-68
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vtfb68
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2010, 07:27:27 PM »

Does anybody have a 1968 Camaro with a M-21 (Four speed) built after O5C (MAY) with a factory original shifter stamped with "MUNCIE"?
  Victor
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rare396bronze
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2010, 09:23:22 PM »

Took out original shifter o6a 68 with m21 with  white knob when talked to first owner he asked if it had white knob on shifter. Has muncie on handle. Still have it @ car after 29 years.
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JoeC
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« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2010, 08:15:34 AM »

68-72 Impala, 68- 72 Chevelle and 68-72 Nova 4 speed used same basic shifter design and used similar chrome sticks.
Impala Chevelle was bolt on stick.
Nova was different shape but welded like 67-68 Camaro. The upper part of the stick and ball was same.

They also used Muncie stamped on Muncie trans and plain chrome stick on Saginaw.

I have reseached this and I think this was a general rule that Chevy used but its not 100 per cent as parts shortage or assembly mistake did happen. These shifters would get get replaced under warenteee sometimes and the replacement may or may not have
had the Muncie stamp.

From what I have seen with Impala/Chevelle/Nova/Camaro most were assembled with Munice getting Muncie stamp and Saginaw getting plain chrome.

I am not sure about 67 Camaro as mentioned in the CRG shifter report some say that only the Muncie stick was used even with Saginaw but this is still being researched. By 1968 Chevy was making  a lot of these shifters as they were used on so many cars.

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vtfb68
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2010, 07:28:08 PM »

Hi guys,
 Does anybody have a 68 with a M21 with a factory original shifter lever that is smooth blank chrome? I have read the CRG section but it is very general. Not many responses to the above question so i am going to termite this.
I am trying to determin if, and if so when the factory finely did give up on the 1st design. (no extra support bar - that did very little anyway) or trying take a mini poll for cars after 05C. Rare396Bronze did you yourself remove the shifter and could describe it? like color, part numbers, tags, ect.
 Thank's
  Victor
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JoeC
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2010, 07:17:16 AM »

I have had a lot of OEM Hurst and Muncie shifters. I started to buy them 30 years ago just to get the chrome stick to convert for use on the aftermarket Hurst shifter.

I'm rebuilding a 67 Camaro Muncie shifter now and it has the stabalizer rod. All the 67-68 Muncie and Saginaw shifters I have seen had the stabalizer rod. The Chevelle/Impala Muncie shifter used an additional 45 deg bracket but I have never seen it on Camaro/Nova Muncie shifters.

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GI JOE
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2010, 10:38:51 AM »

 Grin
I suggest that you find several like Month coded cars like your Camaro 05C (if this is possible at this date in time) and collect data to show what they have (the more the better)... I further suggest you keep what you have unless you know with out a doubt it was changed somewhere by the previous owners...  if it was a dealer replacement you should still use it...as that is part of the cars originality... once parts are replaced, the car can never be 100% original... that's why a 100%-er is so rare...

yet these days everyone seems to have one... back in the day 40 years ago and well into the 80's these cars were sought mostly for one thing, Hot rod GO Fast mobiles... everyone was swapping out manifolds for headers and carbs for Holleys, shifters for hurst shifters (because they worked!), etc.. more of the these cars were altered than what we seemed to have today...so with this knowledge and that the factory was about production and the "Gett-er done" was to use any part that was available to keep things moving (i.e. within reason) you could have an original shifter. 

If it was switched out then you can use the collected data to consider which one to go with...  Good Luck and I'll keep a look out for info for you too.   Wink

just my 2 cents.. you probably already knew all this...  Undecided
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vtfb68
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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2010, 07:21:28 PM »

Hi Guys,
 Still hoping for more replies from 68 guys. Now a few more questions come to mind, If all the Camaro shifters were the same why did the factory replace so many under warranty? and replaced them with what? The factory will always take the cheapest way, so there should have been some kind of improvement. My car is 6,000 from the last 1968 L.A. Camaro and about 27,000 overall. Would the factory limit the amount of High-end cars produced towards the end of a model year? I would still like to read all thoughts on this subject.
  Victor
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JohnZ
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« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2010, 10:49:24 PM »

If a dealer needed to replace a shifter under warranty, he'd replace it with the service part listed for that application; warranty reimbursement didn't pay for aftermarket shifters.

No, the plants didn't limit the run of high-end cars near the end of the model year; they built what the customers ordered.
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KurtS
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2010, 01:50:35 AM »

The last item in the 1969 shifter section is incorrect. It states....

"Small-block and big-block cars used unique shifter mounting plates bolted to the tailhousing, versus the aftermarket bracket mounted with U-bolts around the tailhousing"

The 69 Hurst/Muncie aftermarket bracket bolted to the tailhousing similar to the factory 69 bracket but was the same for BB and SB.
Hurst did not make an installation kit for the 69 with Saginaw
My bad. I thought the 69 kits also used the U-bolt bracket. I'd seen several with the U-bolt bracket - either they had the wrong kit with the shifter or they were mislabeled. The current kit, 373 7437, still has the bracket.
Fixed. Smiley

Victor,
There's no known changes that happened to the 68 shifter design. The brackets/struts stayed the same throughout the model year.
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Kurt S
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JoeC
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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2010, 08:42:32 AM »

If you want to add more info.......

another important difference to the 1969 Hurst shifter OEM vs aftermarket is the OEM used rubber bushings for the rod ends.
They used a molded on rubber in 1969 on the 3 shifter levers and on the 2 forward trans levers.

Originals are hard to find as restored and repo (that I have seen) use the 1970 stlye that was changed to a rubber insert bushing.

Hurst after market used a nylon bushing or a bronze bushing if you upgraded with the heavy duty kit.

A Hurst aftermarket shifter would not meet the Chevy spec for noise and vibration.
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vtfb68
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« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2010, 07:55:56 PM »

Joe,
 Based on thirty years of collecting what is your opinion on the basic question Did the factory install "MUNCIE" stamped
shifters through the entire 1968 production run?


 John,
 If there was no design change why would they replace them? What would your opinion be for the above question?
  Victor
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2010, 10:49:20 AM »

Joe,
Thanks for those details!! That's something that I forgot about.

Victor,
Yes, the evidence points to the Muncie handle. Specifically for late cars, I know of an 06C BB car with a Muncie handle and rare396bronze mentioned the 06A car.

Why did they replace them? Just like any other warranty part - because it had a problem (esp if they were used hard). The reverse lockout assembly was a bad design and the design was changed - I don't recall when that occurred. There is a service bulletin on it, IIRC.
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Kurt S
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« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2010, 12:08:10 PM »

Victor,
Yes, the evidence points to the Muncie handle. Specifically for late cars, I know of an 06C BB car with a Muncie handle and rare396bronze mentioned the 06A car.

Why did they replace them? Just like any other warranty part - because it had a problem (esp if they were used hard). The reverse lockout assembly was a bad design and the design was changed - I don't recall when that occurred. There is a service bulletin on it, IIRC.
Victor......The shifter on my 07c Z28 had "MUNCIE" stamped on the handle.  The shifter is long gone now, Hurst replacement back in the late 70's, but I am currently looking for a good original now.

As Kurt mentioned above there was a replacement for the reverse detent and I am including a link showing the exploded view of the shifter and the two detents.

     http://picasaweb.google.com/111239732860979894494/CamarosNetPhotos#5480485472922550210

Also....if you look at the AIM, M20-A4-Item #3, you can see that there were two different part numbers for the shifter lever control.  3934286 for the low performance engines (Saginaw transmissions)...this should be the shifter lever with no stamping. 3934290 for the high performance engines (Muncie transmissions).....this should be the shifter lever with the "MUNCIE" stamping.  At the bottom of the sheet there are no revision entries indicating any changes to the above specifications.

Anyway.....just my take on this.
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Jerry G.

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JoeC
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« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2010, 07:52:50 PM »

As far as I know the Muncie stick was used on Munice trans for all of 1968. One could have slipped out due to mistake or parts shortage but would be hard to prove unless there are baby pictures showing it.

The same shifter design was used in the 68-72 Nova except was a different shape to the chrome stick to fit the Nova better.
If I remember correctly the 1972 SS 350 Nova didnt come with a Muncie. The 72 350 was low on HP and came with Saginaw and 10 bolt rear

The reverse detent was changed from a early design with 6 balls, 2 bushings, a ring shaped spring and a plastic grease cup.
The later one used a coil spring with 2 bushings.

You would really have to look hard to see the difference.

I never had anyone ask for a plain stick shifter as everyone wanted one with the Muncie stamp. I converted some plain sticks to fit a bolt on Hurst aftermarket shifter but was hard to sell them. I still have some of them .
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JoeC
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« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2010, 07:40:26 AM »

Looking at some shifters , I remember a question that has come up before on 67-68 Camaro Muncie/Saginaw shifters.

There is a large "T" stamp on some on the chrome stick where it would be covered by the boot. Some have it and some don't.
I don't think there was a difference in the shifter and don't think the "T" was a Chevy code.

The 69-71 Camaro used a Hurst then 1972 and up used a "ITM" shifter that was stamped ITM.
So maybe the "T" was a vendor stamp.
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1968 Z28
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« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2010, 10:17:34 AM »

Looking at some shifters , I remember a question that has come up before on 67-68 Camaro Muncie/Saginaw shifters.

There is a large "T" stamp on some on the chrome stick where it would be covered by the boot. Some have it and some don't.
I don't think there was a difference in the shifter and don't think the "T" was a Chevy code.

The 69-71 Camaro used a Hurst then 1972 and up used a "ITM" shifter that was stamped ITM.
So maybe the "T" was a vendor stamp.
Joe....looks like to me there was more than one vendor for the sticks.  Right now, I have two sticks, one with the "T" and one without the "T" and they do not appear to be 100% identical.....a few cosmetic differences between them.  So this makes me believe that there was indeed more than one vendor.

Have you ever compared one stick (T) to the other (no T) and looked to see if they were 100% identical?
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Jerry G.

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JoeC
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« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2010, 08:05:00 AM »

I have one of each here and the chrome stick is a little different but I don't recall any major difference between them.
Could be that they where made with different tooling
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vtfb68
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« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2010, 07:33:01 PM »

Thank's for the replies and information. O7C was good to hear.
  Victor
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