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Author Topic: Need Big HELP with 67 RS/SS numbers  (Read 4117 times)
nuts4coke
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« on: March 29, 2010, 02:45:59 PM »

So I've come across a 1967 RS/SS, and nothing seems to be coming together, and every time I think i get closer to this car being what it says it is, a numbers matching survivor, I get two steps away from it being that... and it keeps sounding like a clone or a bastard car.... here's what I've got.

VIN: 124377N21#### (last part left off until I've determined if I should purchase or not)
NO PROTECT-O-PLATE with this car
TRIM TAG:
11E (nov-5th week)
67-12637 NOR 43397 BODY
797-Z             C-2     PAINT
E  2EMG  3SL
4P   5Y

Axle Code: PC1128O
Transmission (oil Pan): C6E28D
Engine Cating 3892657 with a date of supposidly J257

Now, the VIN seems real high for a car that was built in November of 1966. I've been using information at Camaros.org to decode all of these numbers.... and what I come up with doesn't make sense... and leads me to believe this is a bastard or clone car (some trying to 'fake' a 67 350 RS/SS)

First of all, the car LOOKS like it's supposed to, with striping, brake lights, back up lights, and everything like paint, and options, seem to make the TRIM TAG... but I can't figure out a few things...

The VIN number being a N21####, when from what I can tell, November 1966 built NORWOOD VINs should be much much lower than this.... and according to comaros.org, this VIN was built in May of 1967.
There are no Partial VIN, or Engine stamps on the block pad of the engine because it's supposidly been 'decked' back int he 80's during a rebuild. The only numbers I've been able to get from the engine are the casting of 3892657, and the date of J257. Now, would the date of J257 be October 25th, 1967 (as the actual date), or does it indeed mean the 'model' year of the car, being a 67, and that the J257 means Oct 25th, 1966?

The transmission oil pan starts with C6E28, which tells me May 28th, 1966.... but a pan could be replaced... so I've asked the guy to fetch me the partial VIN number on the bell housing.... to see if it matches up with the VIN of the car. My suspicions are starting to tell me it probably won't match.

Now he told me the axle said PC1128O, but I think he meant 'G' not 'O' at the end... and the PC says it's a 12 bolt built Nov 28th. I've got him getting me the casting date off the pumpkin to see if I can narrow down the year....

Does anyone have any suggestions, or comments? I'd really appreciate the help. I jsut can't tell if this car was built in the fall of 1966, or around May of 67, and in either case, if it's not a 'numbers matching' because of all the other codes, etc... from these parts....

Is there anything else i should be considering? Looking for? Asking?

Thanks for your time everyone....

JW
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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2010, 03:43:27 PM »

Yeah, you have a problem.

1. 124377N21#### is a late April - mid May, 1967 build sequence.
2. 11E is a November (5th week) 1966 build sequence, therefore the VIN or the Trim Tag has been changed.

3. J257 is a casting date of October 25th, 1967, which would have been installed in a 1968 model year vehicle, so it's not original to the car.

You need to get a casting date of the axle, but just going by what you've already posted, the car's been pieced together.

Ed
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KurtS
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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2010, 09:49:18 PM »

Pieced together = potential stolen.
Axle date and tag appear to go together. So it's probable the VIN was from another car....

The partial VIN's on the body would tell the rest of the story.
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Kurt S
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Jrschev
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2010, 07:17:09 AM »

It's a "buyer beware" world with these cars. Just looked at a 68 Camaro for a friend. When I saw that the engine assembly date didn't jive with the build date on the trim tag, and the partial VIN stamped in the block didn't match the VIN tag on the dash I dug a little bit further. The seller said "oh, that is not the original engine" so it wouldn't match the build date of the car etc.... But the VIN number on the dash didn't line up with the Fisher body number on the trim tag so I asked to take the cowl grille off so I could check the hidden VIN. The funniest (or most pathetic) part of this was that as I was cleaning the hidden VIN I noticed the number seemed fimiliar and it was. It was the same as the partial VIN stamped in the block. So......the engine was actually the original 327 block that came in the car but the hidden VIN was different from the VIN tag on the dashboard. Uh oh........   

Needlesss to say we left. That car, in my opinion, was stolen somewhere in it's lifetime. These cars were high theft vehicles back when they were new and I think there are probably lots of them floating around out there with owners who have no knowledge of it.
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1969 Z11 Pace Car (05A) 350/300 L48 4-Speed
nuts4coke
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2010, 08:16:36 AM »

Needlesss to say we left. That car, in my opinion, was stolen somewhere in it's lifetime. These cars were high theft vehicles back when they were new and I think there are probably lots of them floating around out there with owners who have no knowledge of it.

Wow, I would have written the number down, and contacted the authorities to see if it was stolen. In fact, I have half a mind to call the authorities in the town where this dealer is at, and let them know they may have a stolen car in their midsts.... I mean, if I was the owner of this car that was stolen, and the cops called me and said "Mr. Smith, we found your 67 Camaro", I'd be ecstatic!

Any opinions?
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tom
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2010, 09:29:45 AM »

I would ask to check the hidden vin numbers first. Even then be careful how you state your suspicion. If you are wrong the dealer might take you to court. It's also possible somebody made one camaro from two. They could have taken a good drivetrain from a rust bucket, flood or similar donor  and put it in a solid body to solve drivetrain problems. I've also seen front half - rear half projects made from two wrecks.
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69 X11 Z21 L14 glide
looking for a 69 export model (KPH) speedo
nuts4coke
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2010, 10:15:08 AM »

I would ask to check the hidden vin numbers first. Even then be careful how you state your suspicion. If you are wrong the dealer might take you to court. It's also possible somebody made one camaro from two. They could have taken a good drivetrain from a rust bucket, flood or similar donor  and put it in a solid body to solve drivetrain problems. I've also seen front half - rear half projects made from two wrecks.
Why would I have to be careful how I state my suspicion? He's advertising the car as a factory matching, original car... and it's clearly not. Nothing about it is. It is possible that since this dealer bought the car out of state, froma private collection that was letting some of it's cars go, that he didn't do the proper research, or took someones word for it, and doesn't know he has a bastard, possibly stolen, car....

I've asked them at the dealer if they have verified that the partial VINs are the same, and I haven't heard back from them.... like I am being avoided... dealer's hate (even on a new car) an educated customer.... makes them harder to deal with.
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tom
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2010, 10:37:00 AM »

I was talking aboiut the possibility it was stolen. A false accusation of a stolen car could lead to legal action against you.
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69 X11 Z21 L14 glide
looking for a 69 export model (KPH) speedo
nuts4coke
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2010, 10:35:24 AM »

UPDATE: I called the authorities in michigan where this dealer is at, and they went and looked at the car. They called me back, and they 'think' it's not stolen, but they are getting with the state of tennessee to run the two VINS.

YES, I said two VINs. They looked at the stamped VINs on the body, and it did not match. This is a bastard car, and suspect. Here's the link... you guys can check this out, but I do not think this car is what he says it is.

http://www.southernmotors.com/ford_details.asp?CarId=1899

P.S. Read the ad. I told him it didn't have 3.23 gears in back, but he didn't listen. Still has it posted that way... and this is after he gave me all the stampings on the axle. This car has been there awhile.
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pjbizjak
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2010, 03:23:14 PM »

Block casting date of J257 is for a 67 model year. Model years run from july thru june.
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x77-69z28
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2010, 07:17:47 PM »

pj, j257 would be oct 25,67 or 68 model year
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69 x77 burnished brown, 711 int 05A bought in 78
67 rs/ss 350 butternut yellow 4 speed 2nd owner
70 Z28 forrest green, green int, M40, bk vinyl roof PROJECT
99 SS hugger orange 6spd NO TTOPS bought new 1 of 54
11 cts-v blk diamond  edition wagon 556hp sick!
nuts4coke
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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2010, 09:04:24 AM »

PJ, X-77 is correct. When they built the engines, they put the ACTUAL year in the cast date. So that cast date is an october 67 cast, for a 68 model. The car is bogus... which really sucked, cause when I came across it, I was jazzed. It's a nice car, but with a different VIN on the body stampings than the VIN tag, I wouldn't want to own it.
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x77-69z28
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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2010, 09:56:15 AM »

glad you found out BEFORE you bought it!
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69 x77 burnished brown, 711 int 05A bought in 78
67 rs/ss 350 butternut yellow 4 speed 2nd owner
70 Z28 forrest green, green int, M40, bk vinyl roof PROJECT
99 SS hugger orange 6spd NO TTOPS bought new 1 of 54
11 cts-v blk diamond  edition wagon 556hp sick!
KurtS
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« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2010, 11:07:28 AM »

They are just a dealer and don't know cars. I remember they had a 69 Z a few years back I glanced at with a homemade VIN tag.

Why didn't MSP impound the car since it has 2 VINs....??

What's the complete VIN on the car?
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Kurt S
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nuts4coke
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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2010, 08:59:37 AM »

What's the complete VIN on the car?

Let me see if I still have it.
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nuts4coke
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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2010, 12:27:07 PM »

Full VIN is 124377N212188
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KurtS
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« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2010, 03:48:55 PM »

Thanks! That helps keep track of the car and document the VIN issue.
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Kurt S
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tom
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2010, 02:24:30 PM »

What's the partial vin that dosn't match ?
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69 X11 Z21 L14 glide
looking for a 69 export model (KPH) speedo
nuts4coke
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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2010, 01:00:22 PM »

What's the partial vin that dosn't match ?

Unknown, it was the authorities that told me they didn't match.... and they didn't tell me what VIN it was.
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tom
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2010, 04:42:31 PM »

too bad.
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69 X11 Z21 L14 glide
looking for a 69 export model (KPH) speedo
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