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Author Topic: If you bought a car based on certification.........  (Read 9544 times)
Mark
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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2010, 12:32:40 PM »

This is going to get ugly pretty quick unless everyone steps back a little.

Lets define a rebody.  How much new (or from another car) can be added to any car before its classified as a rebody?  some people say that as long as the cowl area is from the original car then all is good.  Obviously that definition would be coming from a person that only has the firewall section of their car left.  My own personal feelings are that if there is more of the tub (I don't count bolt on parts, or quarter panels/tail panels) of another car attached to your car, then its a rebody.  The key part is that there is another vehicle involved here.  I don't care if you weld a new floor pan, new inner fenderwells, new rockers, new roof to your car as long as they were not obtained from another car.  but thats my opinion, and to date there have been many different discussions on many different sites about what constitutes a rebody and to date no one can agree.  So lets see if we can do it here.

Maybe we start a new thread to discuss it.
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Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11
Hylton
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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2010, 01:26:57 PM »

This is going to get ugly pretty quick unless everyone steps back a little.

Lets define a rebody.  How much new (or from another car) can be added to any car before its classified as a rebody?  some people say that as long as the cowl area is from the original car then all is good.  Obviously that definition would be coming from a person that only has the firewall section of their car left.  My own personal feelings are that if there is more of the tub (I don't count bolt on parts, or quarter panels/tail panels) of another car attached to your car, then its a rebody.  The key part is that there is another vehicle involved here.  I don't care if you weld a new floor pan, new inner fenderwells, new rockers, new roof to your car as long as they were not obtained from another car.  but thats my opinion, and to date there have been many different discussions on many different sites about what constitutes a rebody and to date no one can agree.  So lets see if we can do it here.

Maybe we start a new thread to discuss it.


We don't need to re-discuss the definition of what a rebody is Mark. That's actually clouding the issue, not helping things. We simply need a one word response from Jerry. That's it.

If Jerry doesn't like me bringing up the question in a public place, he should just answer it with a YES or a NO (nothing else) and I'll never bring up the topic with his name in it again. In fact, I'll never ask him another question  - EVER!!!
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It's impossible to have a valid certificate of authenticity without verifying that it is not a rebody.
Jrschev
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« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2010, 02:18:55 PM »

This whole "rebody" issue reminds me of George Washington's ax: The handle was changed twice and the head three times, other than that it's the original ax George Washington used.

Personally, I can't see why anyone would want a car with that much work done to it. Wow, at that point what do you have.

As far as Jerry M goes I don't know him personally but I do know he has done an awful lot for every 1969 Camaro owner who wants to learn about their car. He wrote a book with a wealth of useful information in it, he evidently spends all his time dedicated to these cars and he gives out a lot FREE information on this forum. I've personally benefitted from it in the restoration of my 69 Pace Car. Yeah, he probably makes money at it but why begrudge him that? He invested in it and he should reap any rewards from it. I'm envious I didn't think of it first and apparently so are others.

I'm in business and everyone wants to throw stones at you when you are. I say have at it if it's so easy. People make mistakes everyday. I do and I try to learn from them.

Just my opinions.
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1969 Z11 Pace Car (05A) 350/300 L48 4-Speed
jmcbeth
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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2010, 03:17:38 PM »

Well, like many others, I have been following this topic here and other places. I would like to echo the thoughts by Jrschev. Jerry has been a godsend to me. He's inspected cars for me, done first class work for me and has saved my butt on multiple occasions. There is so much fraud in this business, it certainly is comforting to know that we all have someone we can trust.
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John
1969 Camaro Z/28 RS
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jonboy1216
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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2010, 03:32:20 PM »

x2 i think jerry has helped alot of 1st gen owners period. i bought my book the definitive 67-8 book a coulple months ago and the thing looks like its used up already.sure there is alot of info in it and room for more but i dont see anybody else stepping up to the plate on 1st gens.JERRYS doing a fine job i think . i bet even donald trump would give him a job
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DONCZ28
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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2010, 04:45:50 PM »

LOOK UP THE DEFINITION   (SHIP OF THESEUS) , OR (PLATO'S CARRIAGE)
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JimM
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« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2010, 05:11:20 PM »


Jerry,

I've told you before how to solve these problems - state on your reports what you have NOT verified. If you didn't check for re-bodies, state it. If you didn't check for a car being back halved, state it. We are talking about 2 additional sentences here.

Otherwise, people are going to continue to misinterpret what your certification actually means. Eventually, somebody is going to sue you over this stuff.


The problem with that attitude, Hylton, is you are talking about a private business transaction, between a professional and the previous owner of that car.
The certification, which has been posted on the internet, means one thing, what it says, the car is a real 1968 Z/28.
I've seen the document, it says no more than that, and I don't know why any keyboad jocky's, including the original poster, would think it says more.


There will also be a report. The report would go into some detail, but these vary, depending on what the CUSTOMER was interested in. As far as I know, the report on this car has not been made public. Again, it belongs only to to the guy who commissioned Jerry to produce it. It doesn't automatically belong to the current owner of the car, and it certainly doesn't belong to us.

The OP here wanted a Z/28.
I don't agree with the tack he initially took on this and several other boards, I do very much understand his dismay, even horror, when he found he only had half a Z/28.

I hope this car get's restored.
And I hope the story is told on firstgens.com
Maybe we can help him find his original transmission?
vin's posted , get lookin guys.
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Hylton
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« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2010, 05:15:32 PM »


The problem with that attitude, Hylton, is you are talking about a private business transaction, between a professional and the previous owner of that car.
The certification, which has been posted on the internet, means one thing, what it says, the car is a real 1968 Z/28.
I've seen the document, it says no more than that, and I don't know why any keyboad jocky's, including the original poster, would think it says more.


There will also be a report. The report would go into some detail, but these vary, depending on what the CUSTOMER was interested in. As far as I know, the report on this car has not been made public. Again, it belongs only to to the guy who commissioned Jerry to produce it. It doesn't automatically belong to the current owner of the car, and it certainly doesn't belong to us.


Okay so if I am understanding you correctly, some reports may include the inspection for rebodying and some may not. It would all depend on what the original customer asked for? And what they had asked for would be clearly documented in the report?
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It's impossible to have a valid certificate of authenticity without verifying that it is not a rebody.
JimM
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« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2010, 06:14:15 PM »


Okay so if I am understanding you correctly, some reports may include the inspection for rebodying and some may not. It would all depend on what the original customer asked for? And what they had asked for would be clearly documented in the report?

Not that I'd presume to speak for Jerry, or Ed, or anyone else who's gone out on a limb certifying cars as "original" or "real"...
And heck, Hylton, you've been around this edn of the hobby way longer than I, I'm just an unemployed Team Camaro COPO moderator and hopeful master of the next great Camaro site ( http://www.firstgens.com )
Frankly, I'd rather have this discussion there, would bring in more prospective customers..uh uh make that enthusiasts, for the time when I'll have sponsors...

So, I'll only comment on what I've seen.

I've seen several certification reports that were displayed with cars for sale, and included areas that were "whited out"

I've also seen one that described a car in great and glowing detail, but never ever once said it was real.

Sometimes you need to slow down and read what's not written.
Other times what is asked after the fact just wasn't answered.
I've the greatest respect for Jerry, and believe he is a man of great honesty and integrity.
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Hylton
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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2010, 06:43:32 PM »


Okay so if I am understanding you correctly, some reports may include the inspection for rebodying and some may not. It would all depend on what the original customer asked for? And what they had asked for would be clearly documented in the report?

Not that I'd presume to speak for Jerry, or Ed, or anyone else who's gone out on a limb certifying cars as "original" or "real"...
And heck, Hylton, you've been around this edn of the hobby way longer than I, I'm just an unemployed Team Camaro COPO moderator and hopeful master of the next great Camaro site ( http://www.firstgens.com )
Frankly, I'd rather have this discussion there, would bring in more prospective customers..uh uh make that enthusiasts, for the time when I'll have sponsors...

So, I'll only comment on what I've seen.

I've seen several certification reports that were displayed with cars for sale, and included areas that were "whited out"

I've also seen one that described a car in great and glowing detail, but never ever once said it was real.

Sometimes you need to slow down and read what's not written.
Other times what is asked after the fact just wasn't answered.
I've the greatest respect for Jerry, and believe he is a man of great honesty and integrity.

There is nothing you have stated above that I disagree with. I agree that people are BS'ing some of Jerry's certs just like they are BS'ing GM of Canada docs, P-O-P's, Original bill of sales, etc.

If the certification is based on customers criteria then that's fine and my question is answered. Personally, if this is the case, I expect to see that criteria in the report. I don't expect Jerry to have to speak to fraudulent or tampered certs of his. Just looking for how they are granted originally. I just don't know why this is so difficult to have answered.
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It's impossible to have a valid certificate of authenticity without verifying that it is not a rebody.
tom
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« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2010, 07:33:47 PM »

I would add that basing a purchase decision on somebody else's dated report opens a door for things that happen after certification. Was there also a certification by trhe seller that the car was still in the certified condition?
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looking for a 69 export model (KPH) speedo
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« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2010, 08:13:13 PM »

Reading this post and ignoring the other sites this is being discussed, I have two questions for the current owner. Did he receive that actual report that accompanies the certification and does it state what Jerry was officially verifying/inspecting? Also has he even bothered to pick up the phone and talk to Jerry about his concerns over a car that he did not have inspected by Jerry before buying? (same thing Tom eludes to above) To the rest of us on this board, including me, the report, the issues/concerns of the  current owner with the seller, and issues with this car should be of no concern to us.

Now with that being said, I have a comment(s) on the picture shown above. This appears to be a very small area of weld showing rust, and when viewed laying on the ground in a driveway w/o any form of light other than natural light, this would be easily missed by 99% of the people on this forum. Post a picture of the car on a rack with plenty of light and lets see it from 4 feet away not 2 inches. The repair was obviously done many years ago by a body shop, not a restoration shop, probably to repair severe crash damage not trying to bogus up a Z. The signs of undercoating on the floor prove to me this was sprayed on there to hide the seam where the two cars were joined. I am not going to discuss the rebody issue but I will comment on a "clipped" or "back-halved" car as this one is. Repairing a car this way is common practice today, as it was 30 years ago when a car was wrecked bad enough to warrant finding another car to repair it. This does not detract from the value of the car in some peoples eyes especially if the car was restored and the repair was properly hidden. There are many restored "high dollar/rare cars" out there today that have been repaired this way and it would take a bore scope and a major disassembly of the car to find this had been done. This car here could have the issues fixed during restoration and nobody would know w/o looking inside the rocker panels, but then if the rockers were replaced it would never be known. Just my two cents worth to stir the pot a little.....LOL!!!.....................RatPack....................................

Years past I wondered why certain cars were "re-certified" or "re-verifyed" with each subsequent owner as to their condition, history, or what have you...... now I know why: You never know what may or may not have been missed on the previous inspections. There is one Motion Camaro out there that has three verification letters from Joel Rosen.........


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Just keep livin......L I V I N .............
Ron C.
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« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2010, 08:30:52 PM »

buyer buys car UNSEEN based on certification that its a real Z, car gets to new owner,owner doesnt like what he sees, That is the chance the buyer takes when buying a car unseen so dont blame the person who certified the car its the buyer who has taken the risk of buying a car sight unseen.
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67Z/28,67RSZ/28,69RSZ28,71SS454CHEVELLE,02Z4C35thSSCAMAROGMMG#11PERF EDITION 500HP
jonboy1216
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« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2010, 08:58:38 PM »

i agree can we now stick a fork in this issue?all of us arent getting any younger
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rodent
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« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2010, 09:06:42 PM »

Quote
[ratpack]Reading this post and ignoring the other sites this is being discussed, I have two questions for the current owner. Did he receive that actual report that accompanies the certification and does it state what Jerry was officially verifying/inspecting? Also has he even bothered to pick up the phone and talk to Jerry about his concerns over a car that he did not have inspected by Jerry before buying? (same thing Tom eludes to above) To the rest of us on this board, including me, the report, the issues/concerns of the  current owner with the seller, and issues with this car should be of no concern to us.

Yes I did receive the original report.

Yes I have picked up the phone to talk to Jerry, I have phoned numerous times but only get the machine. If Jerry has a call logger he could tell you how many times I have called. That said, Jerry has called me back but he also got my machine Sad due to the time difference and work we obviously find it hard to be in the same place at the same time Sad

As said before, the car is in the same condition as the previous buyer bought it...........excepting that he poached the rear spoiler and centre wheel caps before I got Sad

The original paperwork I have is titled "Appraisal-Certificate of Authenticity" I keep seeing "Certify" in posts but no "Appraisal" It might be a language barrier thing but my understanding of "Certificate of Authenticity" would be verification that the car is in fact a Z/28, which I believe it to be 100%, and the the "Appraisal" part goes toward a general condition of the car?

As stated in the ""Appraisal-Certificate of Authenticity" the undercarriage was inspected

Jim
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