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Author Topic: If you bought a car based on certification.........  (Read 9538 times)
rodent
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« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2010, 12:52:28 AM »

Yes it is..
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2010, 08:07:03 AM »

I have also posted on Jim's new site about this and sent him some photos of the car for all to see.  It was almost a year since I inspected this car.  Read about it there.  I have also tried to call Rodent and left message on Sunday and have not heard back from him.  This car was rough but it still retains it's original engine, the trans and rear are not oem and that is stated in the report.  It is also stated in the report that the rocker panel areas are in very bad condition, and the body is rough.

Jerry
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rodent
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« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2010, 08:32:50 AM »

I rang at roughly 7:45am your time.....got the machine. I have not been able to ring prior to this due to work commitments Sad
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2010, 06:08:53 PM »

I resent photos of car to Jim M for posting.  I was tied up all day with IT guy to install new hard drive in my computer.  Things are still not 100% so getting the thing squared away will comsume my time this evening......and more. 

I am traveling tomorrow and will not be back until Friday evening.  You can try me on the cell if you wish.

Jerry
443-838-2641
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RS3SDL2MG
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« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2010, 08:27:35 PM »

after reading all the info on the car he is upset because it is two car's made into one , if the cowl area and the vin match a real 1968 block then all you would need is a good solid six banger to put all the Z stuff on which is what will happen whether it get's done by the current owner or future owners IT WILL GET DONE , I did not read whether or not it had paperwork to go with it ? if it doe's then a rebody is almost certain !
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JimM
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2010, 12:23:52 AM »

I just put Jerry's pics up on http://www.firstgens.com
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JimM's Camaro Board http://www.firstgens.com
Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2010, 08:08:18 PM »

Rodent Jim,

I will be back in the shop on Sat morning to discuss this with you.  Call me then and we'll talk about the car. 

In the long run, if this car was "back halfed", this would not be classified as a rebody.  If it was necessary to save the car, many have done this and quite a few of the ZL1's were back halfed to save the car and history.  If the bulk head of the car is all there with trim tag, vin stamps and front clip, that is the bulk of the car.  A rebody is classified as removing vin numbers, trim tag and installing them on another vingin car body.  Grinding out the stamped vins and installing new stamped vins is reboding a car.  In my professional opinion, this Z28 Camaro would not classify as a rebody.  Everyone needs to take a look at my '67 Z28 Stock Eliminator car on my web site.  That Z28 was just barely a carsus by the time we started going back togehter with it.  Much worse than this '68 Z28!!  And no original engine.  The reason I spent over $100K to restore my '67 Z car and bring it back is because the main part of the car, the bulk head area and stamped vins were still there and that complete area was the original part of the car.  If not, I would have walkled away from that car and bought another 1967 Z28 to run Stock Eliminator.

Like anything else, many will have different opinions on this subject.  I am sharing my opinion here for all to read.  The sale price of this car was very cheap when I went to inspect it.  I think about $12-14K.  A steal at that price IMO.  The inspection was done in a driveway in FL and the main concern to my client was the engine being real and the fact that this car was a real Z28.  It was real as rain.  Do I check every car for being back halfed...........no I don't.  But if this will become a political topic that goes on and on, it will come down to all on-site inspections being done with all cars completely apart and dismantled.  That is not a reality. 

I do the best that I can to provide a service to the hobby.  Anyone is free to call me anytime if they have an issue with services that I provide.  I have shut down many a  bad deal on bogus cars and I have the attorneys to back me up on that.  We have won many cases against the bad guys.  I want all to have a pleasant experience in the hobby.  That's what it's all about to me.   

I should also point out that I have not seen this car is almost a year.  So, I do not know if it's exactly the same as it was when I inspected it.

Jerry



     
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RamAirDave
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2010, 10:06:38 PM »

I wouldn't consider it a rebody either. 

In the pics posted you can clearly see the weld in the A-pillar that would have some look further into the possibility of it having been clipped at some time.  I think that is what the OP is talking about, that it should've been mentioned?
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rodent
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« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2010, 01:26:34 AM »

This is a portion of the floor where it has been cut the whole way across just in front of the front seats Sad ....the weld looks pretty much the same the whole way across.
The car has been verified to have  a Saginaw in it.............To see the Saginaw, you would have to roll right under the butchered weld Huh 

Car is the same as it was when bought from the States, only differences being that the seller has kept the centre caps and the rear spoiler Sad

Also in the paperwork there is no mention of holes/hanger on the left side of the rear frame rail for the the dual exhaust...should there be something Huh Because there ain't(I don't know enough about this and am only repeating what I have been told). Could this be another telltale sign of butchery....

Jim


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Hylton
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« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2010, 01:48:38 AM »

Rodent Jim,

I will be back in the shop on Sat morning to discuss this with you.  Call me then and we'll talk about the car.  

In the long run, if this car was "back halfed", this would not be classified as a rebody.  If it was necessary to save the car, many have done this and quite a few of the ZL1's were back halfed to save the car and history.  If the bulk head of the car is all there with trim tag, vin stamps and front clip, that is the bulk of the car.  A rebody is classified as removing vin numbers, trim tag and installing them on another vingin car body.  Grinding out the stamped vins and installing new stamped vins is reboding a car.  In my professional opinion, this Z28 Camaro would not classify as a rebody.  Everyone needs to take a look at my '67 Z28 Stock Eliminator car on my web site.  That Z28 was just barely a carsus by the time we started going back togehter with it.  Much worse than this '68 Z28!!  And no original engine.  The reason I spent over $100K to restore my '67 Z car and bring it back is because the main part of the car, the bulk head area and stamped vins were still there and that complete area was the original part of the car.  If not, I would have walkled away from that car and bought another 1967 Z28 to run Stock Eliminator.

Like anything else, many will have different opinions on this subject.  I am sharing my opinion here for all to read.  The sale price of this car was very cheap when I went to inspect it.  I think about $12-14K.  A steal at that price IMO.  The inspection was done in a driveway in FL and the main concern to my client was the engine being real and the fact that this car was a real Z28.  It was real as rain.  Do I check every car for being back halfed...........no I don't.  But if this will become a political topic that goes on and on, it will come down to all on-site inspections being done with all cars completely apart and dismantled.  That is not a reality.  

I do the best that I can to provide a service to the hobby.  Anyone is free to call me anytime if they have an issue with services that I provide.  I have shut down many a  bad deal on bogus cars and I have the attorneys to back me up on that.  We have won many cases against the bad guys.  I want all to have a pleasant experience in the hobby.  That's what it's all about to me.    

I should also point out that I have not seen this car is almost a year.  So, I do not know if it's exactly the same as it was when I inspected it.

Jerry

    

Jerry,

I've told you before how to solve these problems - state on your reports what you have NOT verified. If you didn't check for re-bodies, state it. If you didn't check for a car being back halved, state it. We are talking about 2 additional sentences here.

Otherwise, people are going to continue to misinterpret what your certification actually means. Eventually, somebody is going to sue you over this stuff.

<edited per request to clarify - Kurt>
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 10:36:16 PM by KurtS » Logged

It's impossible to have a valid certificate of authenticity without verifying that it is not a rebody.
jonboy1216
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« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2010, 05:09:07 PM »

jerry could start using (ATOI) which stands for at time of inspection.our quality control people used this alot at our freightliner plant to cover their butts as the trucks came down the line
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Hylton
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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2010, 09:09:47 AM »

jerry could start using (ATOI) which stands for at time of inspection.our quality control people used this alot at our freightliner plant to cover their butts as the trucks came down the line

Sure but if he doesn't state what was or wasn't done ATOI, what's the point?
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It's impossible to have a valid certificate of authenticity without verifying that it is not a rebody.
Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2010, 09:54:35 AM »

Rodent,

I will be back in my shop after 8:30 AM Saturday morning so call me and we'll discuss this car.  410-781-0418

Hylton, you are free to get into this arena and do these inspections too.  Have at it.  You are fast to bash me and this goes back many months ago too.  If you do not like what I do, then call me or approach me at the Camaro nationals and I'll be glad to talk with you one on one about these issues.  Posting all over these boards is all you really want to do. 

Also, remember that you were going to "call me" over a year ago.  In regards to some car or something.  That never happened.  I think that you just like chiming in here.

I was also talking to someone else who knows you quite well in your own back yard.  Jim McClean.  Ring any bells?  He's a very good client of mine and respects what I try to do for the hobby.   

Jerry
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tmodel66
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2010, 10:17:10 AM »

This quote has opened many a blind eyes;


"The  Man Who Complains About The Way The Ball Bounces is Likely To Be The One Who Dropped It"

   Lou Holtz
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Daniel  
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Hylton
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2010, 11:02:37 AM »

Rodent,

I will be back in my shop after 8:30 AM Saturday morning so call me and we'll discuss this car.  410-781-0418

Hylton, you are free to get into this arena and do these inspections too.  Have at it.  You are fast to bash me and this goes back many months ago too.  If you do not like what I do, then call me or approach me at the Camaro nationals and I'll be glad to talk with you one on one about these issues.  Posting all over these boards is all you really want to do.  

Also, remember that you were going to "call me" over a year ago.  In regards to some car or something.  That never happened.  I think that you just like chiming in here.

I was also talking to someone else who knows you quite well in your own back yard.  Jim McClean.  Ring any bells?  He's a very good client of mine and respects what I try to do for the hobby.    

Jerry

So you talked to Jim - big deal.

Bashing? Don't think so - show me one place where I said something negative about you. You need to understand something -

Your certification is used everywhere to validate a car as being the real thing. For that reason alone, you should be willing to explain in full detail what your certification means in a PUBLIC forum, not on a phone or in a PRIVATE one as you are requesting. You are well aware of my concerns and I would appreciate you explaining in plain English, if your inspections include a verification for rebodying or not. That's a yes or no question, not an invitation for you to explain to me how busy you are, what boards you belong to, who your customers are, what court case you are working on or how much work is involved in checking for rebodying. You want to have a conversation with me? Fine - let's have it right here.....

I'll make it simple for you -


Does a car with a your "Certificate of Authenticy" mean that it is not a rebody? YES........or.......NO?
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It's impossible to have a valid certificate of authenticity without verifying that it is not a rebody.
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