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Author Topic: If you bought a car based on certification.........  (Read 8985 times)
rodent
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« on: January 16, 2010, 02:27:52 AM »

 ............by a well known guy who certifies a certain type of Camaro.......and it turns out that the car is not all it seems........what would you do  Huh
 
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RS3SDL2MG
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2010, 07:31:05 AM »

probably not anything you could do , this is a real common thing nowaday's and really for the last several year's I'd say a LOT of people bought car's that were replica's or clone's of a more popular HIGHER PRICED model than they were when new ,, it's a real shame that you can't look at a car now and just go by what's on the cowl tag and take it to be what it say's , the most popular clone is the 69 Z/28 but all the Z's and L78's have been beat to death with fake cowl tag's fake paperwork and even fake protect-o-plate's like that guy in florida that will stamp you a protect-o-plate and make it whatever you want it to be , I would say that in the near future camaro's will remain popular car's because of the styling of the era they come from but the day's of saying a six cylinder isn't worth much and a Z is worth a LOT ARE OVER ! these car's will change hand's and be valued according to the condition they are in and the option's that they have at the time NOT what some type of fake paper say's ,,
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Mark
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2010, 09:47:30 AM »

How would such a car have gotten to Queensland Austrailia, and how long has it been there?  What kind of documentation did you (or whoever bought it) see when the car was purchased, is it based on an inspection of the car, or just a cert based on the VIN?
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Mark C.
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rodent
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2010, 02:56:00 PM »

I bought the car sight unseen............yeah I know what you are going to say Smiley but I was not really concerned about the condition of the car as I knew it needed a full rebuild, I only cared that the car was actually what it was represented as. Which was a 68 Z/28.

Because it needed most everything to bring it back up to scratch I bought it sight unseen purely because it had been certified by a well known Camaro authority. Now to the whats wrong and right with the car.

I believe the car is as represented....a '68 z/28 and is actually in better condition than i expected Smiley That said, there is something not right with the car Sad should I have known this I would have never purchased the car Sad The car was delivered to my house on a Wednesday and due to work commitments I did not get to have a look at it until yesterday. Pretty well as soon as soon as I looked at the car I could tell what was wrong Sad Surely an authority in this type of car should have spotted this problem and noted it in their paperwork  Huh Roll Eyes I have spoken to the seller of the car who claims that he knew nothing of what is wrong with the car.....to which I call bs as he has a '67 and a'69 Camaro and I'm sure that most any car enthusiast would spot this problem.

I will try to speak to the guy certified it again this morning and see what he has to say.

cheers
Jim
 





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tom
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2010, 04:21:19 PM »

Sorry to hear of the trouble. Regrettably in today's market, BUYER BEWARE is not a saying but a necessity. Without asking who the authority is, I expect your recourse would depend on exactly what is stated in the paperwork.
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rodent
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2010, 04:35:36 PM »

What is on the paper work I believe is correct, it's what's not on the paperwork that i am disappointed about Sad  
I would assume that when you certify/appraise a vehicle, you would document all aspects of the vehicle not just the ones associated with the rpo codes  Huh

Maybe it is me who is confused  Huh
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2010, 08:36:50 PM »

Take it up with the appraiser, and if you bought the car from someone else who had the car certified, then you should see if your copy of the report matches the original copy of the original appraiser's report.  Sometimes secondary reports are altered.  I have seen this many times, and this just happened on a car that I certified for Jim Brown, the famous TV sportscaster.  In this case, the report was altered and many issues were left off the report to help sell the car.

Contact the appraiser and address the issue with him. 

Good luck,

Jerry
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rodent
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2010, 09:38:12 PM »

Appraiser contacted Smiley
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Mark
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2010, 08:37:30 AM »

A lot of appraisers, appraise cars for insurance reasons, they don't necessarily even know the specifics of the particular car model, if its presented to them as a Z28 they inspect it for general condition and establish a value for insurance.  That value is of course partially based on the car being a Z28, but they make no effort to even verify if the engine is a 350 or a 327.  What kind of appraisal came with the car?
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Mark C.
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JimM
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2010, 09:47:27 AM »

This is all pretty darned "general"?

What exactly do you believe is wrong with this car?

Is it not a real original engine 1968 Z/28?
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RamAirDave
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2010, 01:24:35 AM »

Is this the car that you had posted about a while back that had the VIN on the cert on digit off from the VIN on the car?
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sdkar
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2010, 06:37:29 PM »

Rodent,

If you like, contact me re: your situation.  I have dealt with similar situations legally and if you were taken advantage of...you can do something about it and compensated.  It is not BUYER BEWARE if the fraud was intentional or you were led to believe a person was of certain expertise.

Email me at sdkar@bellsouth.net

Steve
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DONCZ28
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2010, 08:58:24 PM »

 "LET THE BUYER BEWARE"  IF YOU ARE KNOWLEDGABLE  ENOUGH ,YOU WON'T BUY A FAKE!  DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE YOU BUY!!
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JimM
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2010, 11:13:41 PM »

uh guys, we have a thread running at my new board here http://firstgens.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=310
where there is some additional info.

Mr. Rodent's first post was pretty much fishing methinks.
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RamAirDave
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« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2010, 12:14:28 AM »

From earlier this month, no idea if it's the same car he is referring to or not:

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=171550
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rodent
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« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2010, 12:52:28 AM »

Yes it is..
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2010, 08:07:03 AM »

I have also posted on Jim's new site about this and sent him some photos of the car for all to see.  It was almost a year since I inspected this car.  Read about it there.  I have also tried to call Rodent and left message on Sunday and have not heard back from him.  This car was rough but it still retains it's original engine, the trans and rear are not oem and that is stated in the report.  It is also stated in the report that the rocker panel areas are in very bad condition, and the body is rough.

Jerry
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rodent
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« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2010, 08:32:50 AM »

I rang at roughly 7:45am your time.....got the machine. I have not been able to ring prior to this due to work commitments Sad
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2010, 06:08:53 PM »

I resent photos of car to Jim M for posting.  I was tied up all day with IT guy to install new hard drive in my computer.  Things are still not 100% so getting the thing squared away will comsume my time this evening......and more. 

I am traveling tomorrow and will not be back until Friday evening.  You can try me on the cell if you wish.

Jerry
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RS3SDL2MG
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« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2010, 08:27:35 PM »

after reading all the info on the car he is upset because it is two car's made into one , if the cowl area and the vin match a real 1968 block then all you would need is a good solid six banger to put all the Z stuff on which is what will happen whether it get's done by the current owner or future owners IT WILL GET DONE , I did not read whether or not it had paperwork to go with it ? if it doe's then a rebody is almost certain !
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2010, 12:23:52 AM »

I just put Jerry's pics up on http://www.firstgens.com
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2010, 08:08:18 PM »

Rodent Jim,

I will be back in the shop on Sat morning to discuss this with you.  Call me then and we'll talk about the car. 

In the long run, if this car was "back halfed", this would not be classified as a rebody.  If it was necessary to save the car, many have done this and quite a few of the ZL1's were back halfed to save the car and history.  If the bulk head of the car is all there with trim tag, vin stamps and front clip, that is the bulk of the car.  A rebody is classified as removing vin numbers, trim tag and installing them on another vingin car body.  Grinding out the stamped vins and installing new stamped vins is reboding a car.  In my professional opinion, this Z28 Camaro would not classify as a rebody.  Everyone needs to take a look at my '67 Z28 Stock Eliminator car on my web site.  That Z28 was just barely a carsus by the time we started going back togehter with it.  Much worse than this '68 Z28!!  And no original engine.  The reason I spent over $100K to restore my '67 Z car and bring it back is because the main part of the car, the bulk head area and stamped vins were still there and that complete area was the original part of the car.  If not, I would have walkled away from that car and bought another 1967 Z28 to run Stock Eliminator.

Like anything else, many will have different opinions on this subject.  I am sharing my opinion here for all to read.  The sale price of this car was very cheap when I went to inspect it.  I think about $12-14K.  A steal at that price IMO.  The inspection was done in a driveway in FL and the main concern to my client was the engine being real and the fact that this car was a real Z28.  It was real as rain.  Do I check every car for being back halfed...........no I don't.  But if this will become a political topic that goes on and on, it will come down to all on-site inspections being done with all cars completely apart and dismantled.  That is not a reality. 

I do the best that I can to provide a service to the hobby.  Anyone is free to call me anytime if they have an issue with services that I provide.  I have shut down many a  bad deal on bogus cars and I have the attorneys to back me up on that.  We have won many cases against the bad guys.  I want all to have a pleasant experience in the hobby.  That's what it's all about to me.   

I should also point out that I have not seen this car is almost a year.  So, I do not know if it's exactly the same as it was when I inspected it.

Jerry



     
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RamAirDave
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2010, 10:06:38 PM »

I wouldn't consider it a rebody either. 

In the pics posted you can clearly see the weld in the A-pillar that would have some look further into the possibility of it having been clipped at some time.  I think that is what the OP is talking about, that it should've been mentioned?
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rodent
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« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2010, 01:26:34 AM »

This is a portion of the floor where it has been cut the whole way across just in front of the front seats Sad ....the weld looks pretty much the same the whole way across.
The car has been verified to have  a Saginaw in it.............To see the Saginaw, you would have to roll right under the butchered weld Huh 

Car is the same as it was when bought from the States, only differences being that the seller has kept the centre caps and the rear spoiler Sad

Also in the paperwork there is no mention of holes/hanger on the left side of the rear frame rail for the the dual exhaust...should there be something Huh Because there ain't(I don't know enough about this and am only repeating what I have been told). Could this be another telltale sign of butchery....

Jim


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Hylton
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« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2010, 01:48:38 AM »

Rodent Jim,

I will be back in the shop on Sat morning to discuss this with you.  Call me then and we'll talk about the car.  

In the long run, if this car was "back halfed", this would not be classified as a rebody.  If it was necessary to save the car, many have done this and quite a few of the ZL1's were back halfed to save the car and history.  If the bulk head of the car is all there with trim tag, vin stamps and front clip, that is the bulk of the car.  A rebody is classified as removing vin numbers, trim tag and installing them on another vingin car body.  Grinding out the stamped vins and installing new stamped vins is reboding a car.  In my professional opinion, this Z28 Camaro would not classify as a rebody.  Everyone needs to take a look at my '67 Z28 Stock Eliminator car on my web site.  That Z28 was just barely a carsus by the time we started going back togehter with it.  Much worse than this '68 Z28!!  And no original engine.  The reason I spent over $100K to restore my '67 Z car and bring it back is because the main part of the car, the bulk head area and stamped vins were still there and that complete area was the original part of the car.  If not, I would have walkled away from that car and bought another 1967 Z28 to run Stock Eliminator.

Like anything else, many will have different opinions on this subject.  I am sharing my opinion here for all to read.  The sale price of this car was very cheap when I went to inspect it.  I think about $12-14K.  A steal at that price IMO.  The inspection was done in a driveway in FL and the main concern to my client was the engine being real and the fact that this car was a real Z28.  It was real as rain.  Do I check every car for being back halfed...........no I don't.  But if this will become a political topic that goes on and on, it will come down to all on-site inspections being done with all cars completely apart and dismantled.  That is not a reality.  

I do the best that I can to provide a service to the hobby.  Anyone is free to call me anytime if they have an issue with services that I provide.  I have shut down many a  bad deal on bogus cars and I have the attorneys to back me up on that.  We have won many cases against the bad guys.  I want all to have a pleasant experience in the hobby.  That's what it's all about to me.    

I should also point out that I have not seen this car is almost a year.  So, I do not know if it's exactly the same as it was when I inspected it.

Jerry

    

Jerry,

I've told you before how to solve these problems - state on your reports what you have NOT verified. If you didn't check for re-bodies, state it. If you didn't check for a car being back halved, state it. We are talking about 2 additional sentences here.

Otherwise, people are going to continue to misinterpret what your certification actually means. Eventually, somebody is going to sue you over this stuff.

<edited per request to clarify - Kurt>
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 10:36:16 PM by KurtS » Logged

It's impossible to have a valid certificate of authenticity without verifying that it is not a rebody.
jonboy1216
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« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2010, 05:09:07 PM »

jerry could start using (ATOI) which stands for at time of inspection.our quality control people used this alot at our freightliner plant to cover their butts as the trucks came down the line
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Hylton
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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2010, 09:09:47 AM »

jerry could start using (ATOI) which stands for at time of inspection.our quality control people used this alot at our freightliner plant to cover their butts as the trucks came down the line

Sure but if he doesn't state what was or wasn't done ATOI, what's the point?
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2010, 09:54:35 AM »

Rodent,

I will be back in my shop after 8:30 AM Saturday morning so call me and we'll discuss this car.  410-781-0418

Hylton, you are free to get into this arena and do these inspections too.  Have at it.  You are fast to bash me and this goes back many months ago too.  If you do not like what I do, then call me or approach me at the Camaro nationals and I'll be glad to talk with you one on one about these issues.  Posting all over these boards is all you really want to do. 

Also, remember that you were going to "call me" over a year ago.  In regards to some car or something.  That never happened.  I think that you just like chiming in here.

I was also talking to someone else who knows you quite well in your own back yard.  Jim McClean.  Ring any bells?  He's a very good client of mine and respects what I try to do for the hobby.   

Jerry
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tmodel66
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2010, 10:17:10 AM »

This quote has opened many a blind eyes;


"The  Man Who Complains About The Way The Ball Bounces is Likely To Be The One Who Dropped It"

   Lou Holtz
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Daniel  
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Hylton
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2010, 11:02:37 AM »

Rodent,

I will be back in my shop after 8:30 AM Saturday morning so call me and we'll discuss this car.  410-781-0418

Hylton, you are free to get into this arena and do these inspections too.  Have at it.  You are fast to bash me and this goes back many months ago too.  If you do not like what I do, then call me or approach me at the Camaro nationals and I'll be glad to talk with you one on one about these issues.  Posting all over these boards is all you really want to do.  

Also, remember that you were going to "call me" over a year ago.  In regards to some car or something.  That never happened.  I think that you just like chiming in here.

I was also talking to someone else who knows you quite well in your own back yard.  Jim McClean.  Ring any bells?  He's a very good client of mine and respects what I try to do for the hobby.    

Jerry

So you talked to Jim - big deal.

Bashing? Don't think so - show me one place where I said something negative about you. You need to understand something -

Your certification is used everywhere to validate a car as being the real thing. For that reason alone, you should be willing to explain in full detail what your certification means in a PUBLIC forum, not on a phone or in a PRIVATE one as you are requesting. You are well aware of my concerns and I would appreciate you explaining in plain English, if your inspections include a verification for rebodying or not. That's a yes or no question, not an invitation for you to explain to me how busy you are, what boards you belong to, who your customers are, what court case you are working on or how much work is involved in checking for rebodying. You want to have a conversation with me? Fine - let's have it right here.....

I'll make it simple for you -


Does a car with a your "Certificate of Authenticy" mean that it is not a rebody? YES........or.......NO?
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Mark
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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2010, 12:32:40 PM »

This is going to get ugly pretty quick unless everyone steps back a little.

Lets define a rebody.  How much new (or from another car) can be added to any car before its classified as a rebody?  some people say that as long as the cowl area is from the original car then all is good.  Obviously that definition would be coming from a person that only has the firewall section of their car left.  My own personal feelings are that if there is more of the tub (I don't count bolt on parts, or quarter panels/tail panels) of another car attached to your car, then its a rebody.  The key part is that there is another vehicle involved here.  I don't care if you weld a new floor pan, new inner fenderwells, new rockers, new roof to your car as long as they were not obtained from another car.  but thats my opinion, and to date there have been many different discussions on many different sites about what constitutes a rebody and to date no one can agree.  So lets see if we can do it here.

Maybe we start a new thread to discuss it.
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Hylton
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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2010, 01:26:57 PM »

This is going to get ugly pretty quick unless everyone steps back a little.

Lets define a rebody.  How much new (or from another car) can be added to any car before its classified as a rebody?  some people say that as long as the cowl area is from the original car then all is good.  Obviously that definition would be coming from a person that only has the firewall section of their car left.  My own personal feelings are that if there is more of the tub (I don't count bolt on parts, or quarter panels/tail panels) of another car attached to your car, then its a rebody.  The key part is that there is another vehicle involved here.  I don't care if you weld a new floor pan, new inner fenderwells, new rockers, new roof to your car as long as they were not obtained from another car.  but thats my opinion, and to date there have been many different discussions on many different sites about what constitutes a rebody and to date no one can agree.  So lets see if we can do it here.

Maybe we start a new thread to discuss it.


We don't need to re-discuss the definition of what a rebody is Mark. That's actually clouding the issue, not helping things. We simply need a one word response from Jerry. That's it.

If Jerry doesn't like me bringing up the question in a public place, he should just answer it with a YES or a NO (nothing else) and I'll never bring up the topic with his name in it again. In fact, I'll never ask him another question  - EVER!!!
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« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2010, 02:18:55 PM »

This whole "rebody" issue reminds me of George Washington's ax: The handle was changed twice and the head three times, other than that it's the original ax George Washington used.

Personally, I can't see why anyone would want a car with that much work done to it. Wow, at that point what do you have.

As far as Jerry M goes I don't know him personally but I do know he has done an awful lot for every 1969 Camaro owner who wants to learn about their car. He wrote a book with a wealth of useful information in it, he evidently spends all his time dedicated to these cars and he gives out a lot FREE information on this forum. I've personally benefitted from it in the restoration of my 69 Pace Car. Yeah, he probably makes money at it but why begrudge him that? He invested in it and he should reap any rewards from it. I'm envious I didn't think of it first and apparently so are others.

I'm in business and everyone wants to throw stones at you when you are. I say have at it if it's so easy. People make mistakes everyday. I do and I try to learn from them.

Just my opinions.
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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2010, 03:17:38 PM »

Well, like many others, I have been following this topic here and other places. I would like to echo the thoughts by Jrschev. Jerry has been a godsend to me. He's inspected cars for me, done first class work for me and has saved my butt on multiple occasions. There is so much fraud in this business, it certainly is comforting to know that we all have someone we can trust.
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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2010, 03:32:20 PM »

x2 i think jerry has helped alot of 1st gen owners period. i bought my book the definitive 67-8 book a coulple months ago and the thing looks like its used up already.sure there is alot of info in it and room for more but i dont see anybody else stepping up to the plate on 1st gens.JERRYS doing a fine job i think . i bet even donald trump would give him a job
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DONCZ28
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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2010, 04:45:50 PM »

LOOK UP THE DEFINITION   (SHIP OF THESEUS) , OR (PLATO'S CARRIAGE)
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« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2010, 05:11:20 PM »


Jerry,

I've told you before how to solve these problems - state on your reports what you have NOT verified. If you didn't check for re-bodies, state it. If you didn't check for a car being back halved, state it. We are talking about 2 additional sentences here.

Otherwise, people are going to continue to misinterpret what your certification actually means. Eventually, somebody is going to sue you over this stuff.


The problem with that attitude, Hylton, is you are talking about a private business transaction, between a professional and the previous owner of that car.
The certification, which has been posted on the internet, means one thing, what it says, the car is a real 1968 Z/28.
I've seen the document, it says no more than that, and I don't know why any keyboad jocky's, including the original poster, would think it says more.


There will also be a report. The report would go into some detail, but these vary, depending on what the CUSTOMER was interested in. As far as I know, the report on this car has not been made public. Again, it belongs only to to the guy who commissioned Jerry to produce it. It doesn't automatically belong to the current owner of the car, and it certainly doesn't belong to us.

The OP here wanted a Z/28.
I don't agree with the tack he initially took on this and several other boards, I do very much understand his dismay, even horror, when he found he only had half a Z/28.

I hope this car get's restored.
And I hope the story is told on firstgens.com
Maybe we can help him find his original transmission?
vin's posted , get lookin guys.
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« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2010, 05:15:32 PM »


The problem with that attitude, Hylton, is you are talking about a private business transaction, between a professional and the previous owner of that car.
The certification, which has been posted on the internet, means one thing, what it says, the car is a real 1968 Z/28.
I've seen the document, it says no more than that, and I don't know why any keyboad jocky's, including the original poster, would think it says more.


There will also be a report. The report would go into some detail, but these vary, depending on what the CUSTOMER was interested in. As far as I know, the report on this car has not been made public. Again, it belongs only to to the guy who commissioned Jerry to produce it. It doesn't automatically belong to the current owner of the car, and it certainly doesn't belong to us.


Okay so if I am understanding you correctly, some reports may include the inspection for rebodying and some may not. It would all depend on what the original customer asked for? And what they had asked for would be clearly documented in the report?
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« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2010, 06:14:15 PM »


Okay so if I am understanding you correctly, some reports may include the inspection for rebodying and some may not. It would all depend on what the original customer asked for? And what they had asked for would be clearly documented in the report?

Not that I'd presume to speak for Jerry, or Ed, or anyone else who's gone out on a limb certifying cars as "original" or "real"...
And heck, Hylton, you've been around this edn of the hobby way longer than I, I'm just an unemployed Team Camaro COPO moderator and hopeful master of the next great Camaro site ( http://www.firstgens.com )
Frankly, I'd rather have this discussion there, would bring in more prospective customers..uh uh make that enthusiasts, for the time when I'll have sponsors...

So, I'll only comment on what I've seen.

I've seen several certification reports that were displayed with cars for sale, and included areas that were "whited out"

I've also seen one that described a car in great and glowing detail, but never ever once said it was real.

Sometimes you need to slow down and read what's not written.
Other times what is asked after the fact just wasn't answered.
I've the greatest respect for Jerry, and believe he is a man of great honesty and integrity.
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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2010, 06:43:32 PM »


Okay so if I am understanding you correctly, some reports may include the inspection for rebodying and some may not. It would all depend on what the original customer asked for? And what they had asked for would be clearly documented in the report?

Not that I'd presume to speak for Jerry, or Ed, or anyone else who's gone out on a limb certifying cars as "original" or "real"...
And heck, Hylton, you've been around this edn of the hobby way longer than I, I'm just an unemployed Team Camaro COPO moderator and hopeful master of the next great Camaro site ( http://www.firstgens.com )
Frankly, I'd rather have this discussion there, would bring in more prospective customers..uh uh make that enthusiasts, for the time when I'll have sponsors...

So, I'll only comment on what I've seen.

I've seen several certification reports that were displayed with cars for sale, and included areas that were "whited out"

I've also seen one that described a car in great and glowing detail, but never ever once said it was real.

Sometimes you need to slow down and read what's not written.
Other times what is asked after the fact just wasn't answered.
I've the greatest respect for Jerry, and believe he is a man of great honesty and integrity.

There is nothing you have stated above that I disagree with. I agree that people are BS'ing some of Jerry's certs just like they are BS'ing GM of Canada docs, P-O-P's, Original bill of sales, etc.

If the certification is based on customers criteria then that's fine and my question is answered. Personally, if this is the case, I expect to see that criteria in the report. I don't expect Jerry to have to speak to fraudulent or tampered certs of his. Just looking for how they are granted originally. I just don't know why this is so difficult to have answered.
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« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2010, 07:33:47 PM »

I would add that basing a purchase decision on somebody else's dated report opens a door for things that happen after certification. Was there also a certification by trhe seller that the car was still in the certified condition?
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« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2010, 08:13:13 PM »

Reading this post and ignoring the other sites this is being discussed, I have two questions for the current owner. Did he receive that actual report that accompanies the certification and does it state what Jerry was officially verifying/inspecting? Also has he even bothered to pick up the phone and talk to Jerry about his concerns over a car that he did not have inspected by Jerry before buying? (same thing Tom eludes to above) To the rest of us on this board, including me, the report, the issues/concerns of the  current owner with the seller, and issues with this car should be of no concern to us.

Now with that being said, I have a comment(s) on the picture shown above. This appears to be a very small area of weld showing rust, and when viewed laying on the ground in a driveway w/o any form of light other than natural light, this would be easily missed by 99% of the people on this forum. Post a picture of the car on a rack with plenty of light and lets see it from 4 feet away not 2 inches. The repair was obviously done many years ago by a body shop, not a restoration shop, probably to repair severe crash damage not trying to bogus up a Z. The signs of undercoating on the floor prove to me this was sprayed on there to hide the seam where the two cars were joined. I am not going to discuss the rebody issue but I will comment on a "clipped" or "back-halved" car as this one is. Repairing a car this way is common practice today, as it was 30 years ago when a car was wrecked bad enough to warrant finding another car to repair it. This does not detract from the value of the car in some peoples eyes especially if the car was restored and the repair was properly hidden. There are many restored "high dollar/rare cars" out there today that have been repaired this way and it would take a bore scope and a major disassembly of the car to find this had been done. This car here could have the issues fixed during restoration and nobody would know w/o looking inside the rocker panels, but then if the rockers were replaced it would never be known. Just my two cents worth to stir the pot a little.....LOL!!!.....................RatPack....................................

Years past I wondered why certain cars were "re-certified" or "re-verifyed" with each subsequent owner as to their condition, history, or what have you...... now I know why: You never know what may or may not have been missed on the previous inspections. There is one Motion Camaro out there that has three verification letters from Joel Rosen.........


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« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2010, 08:30:52 PM »

buyer buys car UNSEEN based on certification that its a real Z, car gets to new owner,owner doesnt like what he sees, That is the chance the buyer takes when buying a car unseen so dont blame the person who certified the car its the buyer who has taken the risk of buying a car sight unseen.
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« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2010, 08:58:38 PM »

i agree can we now stick a fork in this issue?all of us arent getting any younger
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« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2010, 09:06:42 PM »

Quote
[ratpack]Reading this post and ignoring the other sites this is being discussed, I have two questions for the current owner. Did he receive that actual report that accompanies the certification and does it state what Jerry was officially verifying/inspecting? Also has he even bothered to pick up the phone and talk to Jerry about his concerns over a car that he did not have inspected by Jerry before buying? (same thing Tom eludes to above) To the rest of us on this board, including me, the report, the issues/concerns of the  current owner with the seller, and issues with this car should be of no concern to us.

Yes I did receive the original report.

Yes I have picked up the phone to talk to Jerry, I have phoned numerous times but only get the machine. If Jerry has a call logger he could tell you how many times I have called. That said, Jerry has called me back but he also got my machine Sad due to the time difference and work we obviously find it hard to be in the same place at the same time Sad

As said before, the car is in the same condition as the previous buyer bought it...........excepting that he poached the rear spoiler and centre wheel caps before I got Sad

The original paperwork I have is titled "Appraisal-Certificate of Authenticity" I keep seeing "Certify" in posts but no "Appraisal" It might be a language barrier thing but my understanding of "Certificate of Authenticity" would be verification that the car is in fact a Z/28, which I believe it to be 100%, and the the "Appraisal" part goes toward a general condition of the car?

As stated in the ""Appraisal-Certificate of Authenticity" the undercarriage was inspected

Jim
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« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2010, 09:22:36 AM »

It is Sat morning and I am waiting for call from Rodent now to discuss this car.  I am back from my trips this week. 

Also wanted to let everyone know on this site that the undercarrige in my report was listed in fair to good, rocker panels will need work!!  Trunk will need work!!  It also states in my report that this car will need a full frame off restoration!!!!!  It's a "Project car".  It's not a car that is a driver by any means!  The car needs everything.

I should also tell everyone here that I did not have use of a lift or floor jack at the time of my inspection.  The main concern to my original client was the engine being real and that this car was a real Z28.  I could stick my head under the car and see that it was a Saginaw trans and the seller also stated that too.

Each car that I inspect and certify has a different scope and what I do is between me and my client.  I will not discuss all the details on an open forum as this helps the counterfeiters.  Did I check this car to see if it was back halfed, no I did not and I take full responsibility for that.  If anyone out there thinks this is an easy job, have at it. 

Hylton has always questioned the integrity of what I do and how I do it yet I have never met him or seen him at a national Camaro event.  I don't know if he restores cars, races them, collects them, sells them or even owns any Camaros.  What I do know is he worships someone in another camp.  I will leave it at that.

Jerry         


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« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2010, 11:31:27 AM »

"quote author=JimM
I've seen several certification reports that were displayed with cars for sale, and included areas that were "whited out" "



Jim, I know that as the values change freqently on these cars that many (including me) will regularly cover the "value" line on Jerry's report when selling a car, especially on Ebay to not affect bidding. I do however, when asked, provide a full copy to anyone that asks for one on a car I am selling.

As always, anyone who is buying a car with Jerry or anyone else's cert (Or as Hylton said GM Canada) should call that person and ask questions, PRIOR to purchase, IMO.

One of the things I personally like is being able to call and talk to Jerry when buying or selling a car, and get the "scoop". Let's face it, with paperwork that you can't trust these days, and NICB that most of us cannot get and verify, it's is a big help to be able to ask questions of someone who has seen a car independantly. It has helped me sell some cars, buy some cars and steer clear of some cars.

Also, one other point and a "Dirty Little Secret"- In many cases a car is restored with NOS parts, gets inspected, and then upon being sold restamped parts replace the NOS parts prior to sale. On a six figure car you should always have it reinspected IMO.

Rich
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« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2010, 11:46:53 AM »

............by a well known guy who certifies a certain type of Camaro.......and it turns out that the car is not all it seems........what would you do  Huh
 

You can see from my limited number of posts that I'm not a "frequent flyer" here.  I check in from time to time.  After reading this thread though, I feel compelled to offer some thoughts.  And please understand that my comments are offered as my opinion(s), offered as a gentleman, not intended as disdain towards others, etc.

This post started as a question, asking "..... what would you do" and has morphed into several topics ranging from re-bodying of cars, inspection practices, etc.  Frankly, I can't believe the moderator(s) have let the thread continue as it has.  Nonetheless, here are my comments:

- Answering the initial question posted by the author, "what would you do", I would accept the responsibility of making a huge buyer's mistake by purchasing a car sight unseen (author's words) first.  I would also accept the responsibility of another buyer's mistake by not inspecting the car immediately upon delivery.  Then, I would determine whether the car has been mis-represented by the seller, if I had any issues/recourse with any mis-representations by the seller and ultimately, whether I wanted to keep the car, or not.  I would  set out on a course of action based on the decision I came to, keeping in mind that I dealt with the seller, not any previous inspectors, appriaisers, etc.

- In regards to the other off-topic content in this thread, I offer the following:
     - Author states "I was not really concerned about the condition of the car".  Why are you so concerned now?
     - Author states "..... bought it sight unseen because it had been certified....."  Another mistake if you didn't hire the certifier, giving him explicit
       direction(s), or know what direction was given to the certifier by the one that did hire him.
     - Author states that the previous owner says he didn't know of the "problem" with the car and author calls BS.  I don't consider myself a Camaro
       expert, but I have owned many cars in my lifetime, worked on many cars, etc.  I have a keen eye for things mechanical.  Yet, my eye for
       bodywork related things is not so good.  I have many times been shown bodywork related things on cars I've owned by others, things that I
       couldn't see, didn't look for, etc.  The previous owner might be telling the truth.
     - IMO, post author has no issue with car inspector/appraiser Jerry MacNeish.  It appears that Jerry was not hired by the author, thus he has no
       entitlement to any comment, input, whatever from Jerry.  His issue(s) should be with the seller of the car.

- In regards to the other off-topic content in this thread, specifically relating to Jerry MacNeish, I offer the following:
     - Jerry's client was the seller of this car, who's concern was whether the car was a real Z/28 and whether it had the original engine.  It appears from
       information presented that those concerns were addressed and answered.
     - IMO, Jerry has given the current owner of this car much more time/attention/diaglogue than he is entitled to.
     - Others have posted in this thread regarding the contributions offered by Jerry MacNeish to our hobby.  I couldn't agree more.
       - Jerry offers, thru his books, at miminal price, a lifetime of Camaro specific education.  Many, many people have educated themselves and
         improved/expanded our hobby by using his publications alone.  IMO, they are cheap at four times what he charges now.  He is not greedy, but
         could be.
       - I have hired Jerry as a Camaro inspector/appraiser, as have many of my friends and associates.  It is my opinion that one always gets more than
         they pay for.  
           - He allows car owner's/presenters to be a part of his inspection/appraisal process, when he really doesn't have to.  
           - He provides education during the inspection/appraisal process, when he really doesn't have to.  
       - IMO, the price one pays for a Jerry MacNeish certification/inspection/appraisal is a value.  I'm of the opinion that having Jerry's endorsement (of a
         real car) adds value to your car equal to at least twice what you pay him to do it, probably more.  Again, he could be greedy and ask for more.  
         He does not.
       - As others have pointed out, Jerry routinely offers "free" advice to those of us who frequent these forums, car shows, events, whatever.  Look at
         the time on many of his posts around.  You know they're done after a long day at the shop, many calls, lots of travel, etc.  He doesn't have to
         answer our questions, or provide excellent/informative comment, but he does.  IMO, this comes from a person interested in perpetuating our
         hobby, not one interested in just personal gain.
       - I would recommend Jerry MacNeish to anyone in need of his services.  You will find him extremely competent, and extremely professional.  And,
         as busy as he is, his detailed, inclusive report will be on your desk within a few days of his visit.  My recommendation if you do consider hiring  
         Jerry, be specific in what your expectations are from him.  He will let you know if he can/can't meet those expectations.  

Again, I am not a frequent poster here.  Thanks for allowing me to wax eloquent on this topic and thanks to CRG and others for what you do for our hobby.

Regards,

Butch Everett
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« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2010, 12:38:33 PM »

Thanks Butch,

Just wanted to let all know here that I've been in the shop all morning and have not heard from Rodent Jim.  I am still willing to talk to Jim and hopefully give a better understanding about this car and the journey you should take to bring it back to new restored condition.

Jerry
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« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2010, 02:25:39 PM »

After following this thread my "respect" for a "certified" car is gone.  I never knew that they can be tilted depending on what the person paying wants to hilghight. I thought the inspection would be the same no matter what the out come was. Buyer Beware for sure!!
  Victor
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« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2010, 04:41:57 PM »

back to the spliced car.  this was and still is common practice in the body shop arena.  in fact my 1971 camaro was back halved some time in the 70s when it was fairly new.  it is still in one or should i say two pieces.  when i found this out in the early 80s i was heart broken.  the manager at our dealership bodyshop assured me it was fine.  and guess what it was.  no one did this to forge a certain car it was done to repair a fairly new car i would guess.  give jerry a break, i have met him personally can't say i agree with everything he told me about my car, but he was being honest as he saw it.   unless every car is stripped to bare steel who knows what is under the shiny stuff.   i have media blasting equipment at my shop,  the stuff we uncover is sometimes shocking.
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« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2010, 04:53:59 PM »

Just to let everyone know that Jim and I talked this afternoon.  I told him that I would move forward with the restoration as the car does have its original engine and it deserves to be restored.  Many 302's were blown up in '68 from abuse and racing, this car did not lose its OEM engine and that is very important for the hobby........and the car.

Jerry   
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« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2010, 05:13:20 PM »

So the car was clipped, big deal. Might have been hard to tell if down on the ground and done a long time ago. If someone wants an uncut car they are going to have to burp for it. I've clipped many cars and if I found a car with an origional drivetrain I'd clip that too if it got poked in the rear or t-boned. Sure not going to crush it. No different than changing every body panel as most do anyway. Nice clips were easily obtained years ago so it was done just as it's done on today's cars. Take a look at the Mopar scene. You can simply unbolt the entire dash with the VIN of a 68 Mopar, bolt it in another car and no one would be the wiser. But you better make sure you change all the components on the rest of the car that designates it's correctness. Now that is not the car that came off the assembly line but it's been done.
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« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2010, 05:25:28 PM »

the car you are looking at is my 71 ss ls5 454 chevelle,numbers matching, protectoplate,dealer invoice,sales contract, bought from the original owner who was letting it rot in his backyard.The trunk,rearfloor under the rear seat and wheelhouses and quarters were trash.I bought a half of a chevelle from arizona,the rear half and had the cars backhalf replaced.The chassis (frame) in the rear was also trash and I changed the whole frame also.The car was worth saveing as its a real SS LS5 with its original drivetrain and yes the original color is mulsanne blue.I get compliments wherever I go with it and I drive it all over. Grin They made over 9,000 LS5 chevelles in 1971,they only made 7,199 68 Z/28s,so its worth saveing that 68Z even if you have to do a little more work to it.You are saveing a part of automotive history so when its done drive it and enjoy it!!
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 06:15:23 PM by Ron 69RSZ » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2010, 08:55:41 PM »

Much more than 1/2 of this car was replaced, so I have to say yes to it being a rebody. Imagine if GM simply put one of the hidden VINs on the rear parcel shelf. I reckon that would change many opinions and this argument quite a bit..
That's just my opinion.. Smiley I know Jim personally and obviously have a simpathetic view about t/his situation.
I know I'd feel the same that he does about it.

Is it a pity or an advantage that all 3 VINs are practically in the same place allowing them to be easily retained?
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« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2010, 09:48:18 PM »

I'm a big proponent of looking at a car before you buy it. Sight unseen is asking for problems. Even with an appraisal (that did not state much on the body condition, positive or negative). Not to say the info on the appraisal can't be improved, but you gotta see the car....

Frankly, I can't believe the moderator(s) have let the thread continue as it has.
I (and others) have watched this post closely. One post needed clarification, that's it. Thanks for keeping it civil guys!

As long as things are being discussed in a reasonable manner, a thread can generally run it's course. Some of the issues/unrest on other forums comes from closing, editing, or restricting posts.  I want to maintain the openess and general good-nature that exists on this forum.

I would have let this thread continue. But, per the request of the original poster, I'm going to close it. Smiley
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