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Author Topic: Rally Sport Vacuum problems. HELP!  (Read 7373 times)
MMMM_ERT
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« on: March 20, 2006, 12:43:08 AM »

Okay experts.

I just replaced my actuators, My originals that I had rebuilt years ago quit on me...actually only one of them went bad.  I bought some of the reproductions and installed them today.

Heres my problem:  The light doors (if open) when the car is NOT running will close as soon as the car is started, which is what they are supposed to do.  When I turn on the lights at the dash, the doors stay closed.  I also try to bypass by switching the Relay to the "open" position...but the doors still stay closed.
They were working previously, the only thing I can think of is this.  My Relay valve broke at the inlet from the light switch (red hose).  I epoxy'ed it and it seems to be  tight fit, but maybe it's the culprit...any ideas?

Also, in the assemby manual, the diagram shows the relay hoses as TOP=Green, Middle=Yellow, Bottom=Red.   Well on the relay itself, it shows TOP=Red, Middle= Yellow and Bottom=Green.   I never noticed that before. Any ideas on this?
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1968 Camaro RS/SS 350 Coupe
rich69rs
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2006, 01:47:24 AM »

The key may be in the fact that you did the same thing I did - replaced original designed actuators with Pacific Rim repro c _ _ p - don't get me started.

When I did the same thing back in the summer of 2004, my new, repro actuators (acquired from Classic Industries) had two problems.  1) the vacuum connection on the actuators wrere not oriented the same as the originals, which caused an interference issue between the vacuum connection on the back side of the cannister and the mounting bracket - relaitively minor, but still a nuisance that had to be dealt with.

Secondy, my headlight doors did exactly the same thing - they stayed closed when the light switch was pulled all the way out and the lights were on and they were open when the light switch was pushed in all the way and the lights were in the off position.  I wasted the better part of an afternoon chasing the vacuum connections at the light switch, at the relay valve, and then it occurred to me to swap the vacuum lines on the actuators and connect the red stripe line to the back (instead of to the front) and connect the green striped line to the front (instead of the back) of the actuator.  You could accomplish the same thing at the relay valve, but then to the astute eye it would be obvious that, per the Assembly Manual, this was not the way Chevy (Norwood) originally built it.

Bottom line is that the actuators, at least the two that I got, operate bass ackwards.  Go figure. 

Run a little experiment, swap the vacuum lines at the actuators - I'll bet your relay valve is ok.

Attached Word document is a pretty good guide to the system, diagrams, etc.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 02:32:20 AM by rich69rs » Logged

Richard Thomas
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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2006, 02:02:11 AM »

What you mention in your original post about how the relay valve is labeled vs. what is in the assembly manual is interesting.  I just noticed that the Word doc that I attached in the previous post also shows red on top, green on bottom (same as your relay valve is labeled). 

However, one must assume that the AIM is correct.  GM simply routed the vacuum hoses as needed to work with the original style actuators.  Easier to re-route the tubing as opposed to redesigning the relay valve or actuators.

Attached pictue is one of many reference dissassembly pictures I took of various pieces of the car as I was dismantiling it.  This particular picture shows my relay valve, with original tubing still attached, prior to dissassembly and removal from the car.  White paint marks were my additions to help me keep straight in my mind what tubing went where, etc.

You'll note that green is on top, yellow in the middle, red on bottom - which agrees with the AIM - and is the way Chevrolet (Norwood) assembled it. 

Thanks for pointing this out - good catch

Richard.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 02:12:12 AM by rich69rs » Logged

Richard Thomas
1969 RS
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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2006, 02:34:10 AM »

THanks for the info Rich,

From what I hear, the repros I got are pretty good, they are CHQ brand...retooled from what I am told, I too heard about the early rerpos being crap.   

I already tried swapping the Green and REd lines at the Relay...nothing.    The only other thing I can think of is, when I started having problems with the system a while back, everything was new or rebuilt except for the light switch in the dash.  I figured, I would replace the light switch to see if it was the cause...it turned out that one of my original actuators that was rebuilt went bad....  So...the only difference from when they last worked (other than the repro actuators) is the new light switch (repro too)....I'm considering swapping back in my original GM switch.   That write up is great, but there are some differences in the 68 to 69 set up.   

I wish I could find my original GM relay to see what it says as far as the Red, Yellow, Green thing.  I called someone who has originals laying around and he confirmed they do say Red top, Yellow middle and Green bottom.
It is VERY interesting that your original pic shows it "backwards".   

I think 1st, I'll switch back to my original headlight switch and if thats not it, I'll buy another dang repro relay, those are the only two things I can think of. 


The key may be in the fact that you did the same thing I did - replaced original designed actuators with Pacific Rim repro c _ _ p - don't get me started.

When I did the same thing back in the summer of 2004, my new, repro actuators (acquired from Classic Industries) had two problems.  1) the vacuum connection on the cannisters wrere not oriented the same as the originals, which caused an interference issue on the back side of the cannister and the mounting bracket - relaitively minor, but still a nuisance that had to be dealt with.

Secondy, my headlight doors did exactly the same thing - closed when the light switch was pulled out and the lights were on and open when the light switch was pushed all the way and the lights were in the off position.  I wasted the better part of an afternoon chasing the connection at the light switch, at the relay valve, and then it occurred to me to swap the vacuum lines on the cannisters (actuators) and connect the red stripe line to the back (instead of to the front) and connect the green striped line to the front (instead of the back) of the cannister.  You could accomplish the same thing at the relay valve, but then to the astute eye it would be obvious that something was "amiss".

Bottom line is that the cannisters, at least the two that I got, operated bass ackwards.  Go figure.  Run a little experiment, swap the lines at the cannisters - I'll bet your relay valve is ok.

Attached Word document is a pretty good guide to the system, diagrams, etc.
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1968 Camaro RS/SS 350 Coupe
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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2006, 02:44:20 AM »

Oh yeah....one more thing.  All my hoses are now modern Gates all black vacuum hoses.  I bought the pretty (and expensive) color coded kit and they rotted within 6 months...complete garbage.   I was so mad at that.   You'd think they could manufacture the hoses to last like modern hoses for that kind of money they charge.  Angry   

I'd prefer to have them correct color coded, but I am not going to spend $75.00 every 6 months for it.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 02:46:03 AM by MMMM_ERT » Logged

1968 Camaro RS/SS 350 Coupe
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« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2006, 12:54:47 AM »

Okay,  check me on this...

Tonight after thorougly thinking about the system and how it works according to the AIM diagram...even though mine is different (68)

Bear with me on this, the 68 system routes from the motor to the vacuum tank (1st nipple), back out of the vac tank(2nd nipple) with a yellow hose, then routes all the way back to the light switch (Black hose from the yellow T) and finally back to top of the Relay with the orange hose.  The 69  uses a check valve T.

Anyway...heres what I did.

I disconnected the black hose (at the yellow Tee) that goes all the way back to the light switch and disconnected the orange hose from top of the Relay.
I then took a spare piece of hose and directly connected the Yellow T to the Orange inlet of the Relay.
This completely isolates the dash light switch out of the system.

Started the car and the doors stay closed as they should, I then switched the override on the Relay to "open" and doors don't open.
At this point, I'm still getting excellent vacuum at the green hose nub at the relay...with the relay override open, I should be getting vacuum at the red nub and hoses.

This all tells me that the Relay is bad....Right? 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 01:30:57 AM by MMMM_ERT » Logged

1968 Camaro RS/SS 350 Coupe
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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2006, 06:20:51 PM »

Bear with me as I mentally walk through this.... I'm out on a business trip and don't have any references with me.

The orange line to the relay valve is a "reference vacuum source" which is applied to the top of the diaphragm in order to control the position of the pilot valve inside the relay. 

The position of the light switch (or operation of the overide on the relay) either leaves vacuum on the orange line to the relay or cuts it off.

Whether vacuum is on or off the orange line to the relay valve then determines diaphragm and pilot valve position which determines vacuum routing from the reservoir tank (yellow striped line) through the relay (via pilot valve position) to either the red striped or green striped lines to the actuators, which then determine doors open or closed.

The test that you made effectively took the light switch out of the equation, routing engine vacuum directly to the reservoir tank and to the orange striped line input to the relay.  Engine running, doors are closed - so far so good.  Moving the relay overide should have the same effect as operating the light swithch.  Vacuum should be removed from the relay reference which should change vacuum routing and open the headlight doors. 

What you've done makes sense - looks like the relay has gone south.  If you remove the relay, you can see the bottom of the pilot valve shaft.  Maybe you can move it slightly, try a drop of oil.  If it is stuck, maybe it will free up.

I'd be interested in knowing if you do conclude that the relay is the problem.

RT
« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 06:39:58 PM by rich69rs » Logged

Richard Thomas
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« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2006, 05:25:37 PM »

Okay....sorry for the delay on getting back to this topic.   I've been crazy busy.

The final word is................ SUCCESS!!!!

Turns out the Relay Valve was bad.    It was tough to figure it out though, the Relay Valve mechanism was moving up and down in the barrell when I would turn the lights on and off....but there must have been a leak in it somewhere and not getting a full "switch".   I bought a repro as a last gasp because everything else is in perfect working condition.  Installed the new valve and BAM!

 The lights work flawlessly now, they pop open even, smooth and FAST.   

I am so JAZZED!!!  My RS lights have not worked in 6 years.  Undecided

FYI Rich...for some reason the repro actuators also work "backwards", I had to switch the connections at the relay valve for "proper" on/off

BAsically, all thats left of the original RS components in the car are the doors/mechanisms and the large vacuum tank under the fender.  Everything else has been replaced.   Shocked

Bushings, Actuators, Relay Valve, Headlight Switch, hoses etc.... 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2006, 11:40:07 AM by MMMM_ERT » Logged

1968 Camaro RS/SS 350 Coupe
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« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2006, 11:06:23 AM »

10-4

Glad you got it working - very cool when the lights work as advertised.
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Richard Thomas
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sdkar
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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2006, 02:39:43 PM »

Heres one resolution to the RS vacuum problem.

http://www.detroitspeed.com/

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MMMM_ERT
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2006, 10:25:41 PM »

Thanks....but OUCH!  Over 400 bucks for a non-original system. Shocked   I'll stick with the PITA vacuum system.  Wink

Plus, it says it's for a 69...nothing about a 68.
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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2006, 09:02:23 AM »

This may be a resolution.  I haven't tried it, but it may be worth a shot.

see ebay #4634888328

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KurtS
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2006, 12:40:46 AM »

I looked at the Detroit Speed RS setup. Looked nice for a restomod car.

Wonder what motors the ebay systems uses?
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2006, 12:48:51 AM »

I spoke with the guy and just for the heck of it, ordered the directions.  He stated that the motors used are from the 90's Chrysler Lebaron type cars with the headlight covers.  These cars use a single motor with two rods extending to each cover.  He stated I would need two of these.  These cost less then $10 at the junkyard near me and were plentiful. 
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2009, 10:42:57 AM »

CAN ANY ONE TELL ME WHERE TO FIND A VACUUM LINE DIA. FOR THE 68 RS
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