Author Topic: NHRA Virginia Points Race w/ The New '67 Z28 Race Car  (Read 10160 times)

Jerry@CHP

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NHRA Virginia Points Race w/ The New '67 Z28 Race Car
« on: May 03, 2009, 11:29:49 PM »
Didn't get close to the national record at the Richmond race because the air was bad.  About 2300 feet corrected altitude.  Car ran 10.70's in this air at 122 mph.  Still very good and in good air would put me in the low to mid 10.50's. 

I did get the suspension issues worked out.  No more tire spin.  Check out the photo.  1.44 60 ft times.  Had to change my underware when I let the clutch out on this pass.  Hard to beleive cars will do this with nine inch tires.  Best working race car that I've ever owned!

Enjoy,

Jerry

maroman

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Re: NHRA Virginia Points Race w/ The New '67 Z28 Race Car
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 01:08:10 AM »
You got some good air there, at least under the front tires.
Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new

dutch

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Re: NHRA Virginia Points Race w/ The New '67 Z28 Race Car
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 01:20:12 AM »
Jerry...
   Great picture and I hope you get an opportunity under better conditions to display the car's full potential in the near future - for all of us Z 2/8 owners who continually hear ''geeze that's such a teeny small engine - whyd'cha you put a Ford in it"? - Thanks...
   Do you intend to try an NHRA event like the Nationals at INDY again at some point to showcase the car and your talents similar to a few years back when you did so well there bringing Old Reliable back into the spotlight?

Randy

Jerry@CHP

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Re: NHRA Virginia Points Race w/ The New '67 Z28 Race Car
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2009, 02:01:23 AM »
Randy,

As long as we progress with performance in the car, I might plan to do Indy in Sept.  John Duzac & George Peterson are very fast in D/Stock with their '67 Camaro and I'm not making the power they are.  Will keep thrashing and see what happens later in the season.

Will be doing the NHRA Englishtown National Event in June and the Charlotte National Event in Sept too. 

Thanks for your support,

Jerry

dutch

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Re: NHRA Virginia Points Race w/ The New '67 Z28 Race Car
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2009, 05:25:56 AM »
Jerry:
  Without giving away too many secrets - and assuming most others in your same class would end up with chassis setups similar if not exactly the same as each other after a few years of watching and experimentation - how could others in the same class end up having better performance than you could?
   I could see the application of track dependant or day to day setups changing somewhat, but we all know you have a lot of dyno and engine building experience with 302's... So considering the limitations imposed by the NHRA with regards to 'stock' engine specs and 'original and/or replacement spec parts' how is it possible for some to make a substantial power difference over others with arguably the same equipment?
   Just how much is actually allowed to be done to a 'stock configuration' that could make a considerable amount of power difference over what you yourself already are making and still stay legal? Or is this a 'Smokey'-type of class where you can do anything you want as long as you don't get caught type of deal?
Randy   


CNorton

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Re: NHRA Virginia Points Race w/ The New '67 Z28 Race Car
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2009, 12:39:57 PM »
Yes, Jerry, how does that happen?

Randy, I've been running in Stock Eliminator, building my own motors, for close to 40 years and, right now, before Jerry takes a shot at answering your question this morning, I'll mention a few things that people watching the sport may not realize.  Twenty-five years ago Stock Eliminator builders were required to retain many OEM parts and specs within a particular engine combination and a big percentage of racers did their own engine work.  Over the years, rules have been liberalized to the point that even the people who are knowledgeable and experienced are faced with an array of options that can lead one astray in short order.  There are now quite a few professional builders who specialize in Stock Eliminator.  Some examples of variables brought in through rules changes:
1.  We were required to use OEM pistons.  Now, for my own combination, there no less than eight companies producing pistons and each has a different theory on skirt design and ring land configuration and the only limiting factor is the design of the crown and rod/piston/pin/ring package total weight.  A set of quality pistons costs well north of $1000.
2.  We were required to use a camshaft with stock lift, duration, overlap.  Now, duration and overlap are not regulated.  The possibilities are staggering in terms of lobe design.  A billet cam ground to spec is usually in the range of $350.
3.  We were required to use stock lifters and OEM valve spring specs.  Those areas are now unregulated.  Ceramic-face lifters permit much heavier valve spring pressures.  Oh yes, a set of ceramic-face lifters costs about $700.
4.  Piston ring design is limited only by the width of the stock ring.  Diamond-lapped ring spacers have opened the door on experimental ring designs.  I've used ring packages that cost up to $600 for eight pistons and, recently, I heard that someone recently paid a little over $1000 for a set of rings.
5.  The rules on cylinder head preparation were recently liberalized in terms of intake and exhaust runner volumes.  Valve job specs, a long-time issue in teardown, can now legally provide a significant edge for someone who experiments by spending mega-hours on the flow bench while using up increasingly rare head cores.
6.  Transmissions are now hand-built from non-OEM cases and configurations with a comprehensive list of possible ratio combinations.  How much is a competitive  Jerico or G-Force trans worth these days, Jerry?
7.  Clutch design and configurations are endless and I won't even hazard an estimate of how much a state-of-the-art pressure plate and disk combination costs today. 
8.  Years ago, we commonly went to the junk yard to find a decent four-bolt block core and counted ourselves fortunate if we could snag an 010/020 casting core.  Nowadays, it's simply a matter of stopping by the nearest GMPP source and picking up a CNC'd bowtie block. That can range from $2000 to $3500 depending on the extent of factory preparation and the advantage of thick, rigid cylinder walls makes it highly desirable if not essential.
9.  Machine work for a race motor is a bargain at $2500 to prep a block.  That would include:  Align boring the mains, squaring the decks, lifter bore truing, boring, final honing, setting the final deck height after the mock-up assembly and a few more little tricks.

The items I've enumerated only scratch the surface.  Add that to the fact that there is often a significant gap between dyno numbers and the E.T. slip.  Even with modern data loggers and the latest fad, oxygen sensors, it takes a LOT of track time to take even a masterfully built Stock Eliminator engine/chassis combination to the limits of its potential.  People with daily jobs and ordinary paychecks quickly find out how quickly any combination can drop out of the top echelon of performers in any class.

Now, Jerry, after the things I've enumerated, how would you respond to Randy's very logical questions?

Cheers, buddy!!!  Congratulations on your accomplishments so far!!  Let me know when you're in town.

c

Jerry@CHP

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Re: NHRA Virginia Points Race w/ The New '67 Z28 Race Car
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2009, 01:08:15 AM »
Randy,

Chuck Norton brings a lot of good technology thoughts and talking points to the table and the way many racers approach Stock Eliminator.  Much of what I have learned I have shared with many of my customer base........and I have quite a few Z28s out in the field running on the street.  Read my customer feedback. 

When I built the new car, I didn't go the full blown NHRA stocker route as I still wanted this car to look like a real 1967 Z28 which it is.  I installed all of the factory wiring harnesses......no one does that with a stocker today.  All of the under the hood hardware is still factory original, dated alternator, alternator brackets, radiator, water pump, pulleys, etc, etc.         

My engines have made the same power for many years now with J&E pistons.  The J&E's are closest to the original GM pistons.  These are what I use in many of the resto rebuilds that I do for my customer base.  I would say that the data logger has helped me the most.  The clutch and gearing is also critical.  And The Wenzel Brothers have been another guiding light for me.

Nothing fancy on the suspension, an original set of GM 1967 Z28 mono leaf springs with Cal Tracs.  Have used slapper bars too and saw no difference in ET's.  I did switch the front coils out for a set of Morosos as they have more strored energy.  My new car still has it's original steering box, all the tie rod ends, pitman arm and idler arm, control arms, etc.

As to cheating, it's not worth getting caught and I would say that most of the sportsman racers do try to build a legal car.  I've been through the tear down process at the US Nationals and the last thing you want to do is get thrown out for a bogus engine.  I have posted the Indy tear down on my web site for all to read.  It's very intense.  All of my engines are built on the conservative side which is good as they live longer and do not turn into time bomb grenades.

Hope this answers your questions.

In Portland, OR

Jerry




 


Jerry@CHP

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Re: NHRA Virginia Points Race w/ The New '67 Z28 Race Car
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2009, 01:07:59 PM »
Randy,

Also forgot to mention that many who run the Z28 combination in Stock Eliminator dont' run well.  That is either because of their budget or they just have time to experment with changing things on the car...........or have the expertise.  Many racers will not run a Z28 because it is such a hard combination to make fast and run a second under the respective index of the car.  This was due to NHRA hitting this 302 combination with HP over the past 42 years.

I have said many times in different interviews that I run a Z28 because it is the car that I fell in love with in high school.  I am NOT running one because it's the best car to build in Stock Eliminator.  The Z28 is NOT the best factored car for Stock today..........probably one of the worst.  It is through determination and what I learned from running the Old Reliable Strickler car that this car runs so well out of the box.

I've been doing this now for 38 years now and have always had a conservative approach to racing......and I am a good listener.  I never want to be on the cutting edge because of the risk in all directions.

I should also point out that most Stock Eliminator cars are also close to 50/50 in weight.  That means that the weight is moved around in the car to have the same amount of weight on the front and rear tires.  Hard to do??  Yes it is.  I didn't even try to get mine that way as this would have required jap front end sheet metal.....I installed all GM NOS front sheet metal.  Removing factory wiring harnesses is another weight issue.  I did not.  I also would not have reinstalled the RS front end.  The non RS cars have slightly less weight to them.  I could have installed a Vega steerring box to save weight and did not.  I installed the original dated steering box on the car.  I could have installed an aluminum water pump but opted for an original 326 water pump, and so on and so on.

My personal belief about why the car is doing so well on the third outing is because of a lot hard work and never giving up on a car and engine combination that you believe in.  Many of my customers will also tell you that their Z28s are rocket ships on the street.  I am always willing to share with other customers who love this car too.  I rest my case.

Jerry



 





     

dutch

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Re: NHRA Virginia Points Race w/ The New '67 Z28 Race Car
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2009, 05:03:26 PM »
Jerry and Chuck...

   Thank you both for your replies. Guess my lack of knowledge about divisional and higher rank racing is quite apparent and it showed from my questions. Sounds contrary to it's name, like even Stock Eliminator racing has also literally been taken out of just about everyone's hands and it too has pretty much become a rich man's game like so many other things these days.
Sounds also, if you can't afford to buy something already built thats quick and/or aren't fortunate to have the time, facilities and knowledge, (again $$'s) to do it yourself - you may as well just stick to bracket racing near home and forget about any bigger dreams on the track...
  That's unfortunate at least in my eyes since that is where I feel drag racing really has it's roots. It also seems like the NHRA and other sanctioning bodies have created this problem by allowing rules and interruptations to rules which have allowed this to happen, some of which you both have described in great detail here. Personally, I hate bracket racing but at least I can see now why it has become so popular.
   I come from an area of the world where there are no real drag strips and to get to a decent sanctioned one requires a minimum drive time of 6 hours or so. A couple of friends try to race and spend an unGodly amount of time driving and towing cars to some of these places and the costs and in time and effort is nuts. A few of us also try and get to NHRA events in Ind. or Minn. when we can but it means 15 hrs of driving one way and most around here remind us we're crazy - and often I want to agree after having done it -but a year dulls ones memory and the next Summer we're off doing it again!
   Thanks again to you both for your time to explain some of the nuances of the sport that people like me don't grasp obviously being so far removed from it!
   Jerry I applaud your efforts to do what you do. You must certainly love the model to swim upsteam against odds that I now see are stacked quite tall in front of you in trying to do it this both in a hobby and a business/research venture - sense.
Again good luck in your quest for the low 5's or better... 
   Randy
 

Ron C.

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Re: NHRA Virginia Points Race w/ The New '67 Z28 Race Car
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2009, 08:59:07 PM »
Jerry you got some serious airtime there!! Maybe too much gear? I will bet if you can keep em closer to the ground your time will be better. ;D
67Z/28,67RSZ/28,71SS454CHEVELLE.

Jerry@CHP

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Re: NHRA Virginia Points Race w/ The New '67 Z28 Race Car
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2009, 12:39:33 AM »
Ron,

I just need the landing to be softer.  On this run here in photo, was the best 60 ft time with this car.........and far better than the Old Reliable Z28 race car, ever.  I am changing some things for the next points race at Maple Grove.  Coming out harder will also help this issue and hope to qualify better than I did at VA.  Was #15 out of 48 cars in Stock at the VA race.

Jerry   

 

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