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Poll
Question: to clone or not to clone  (Voting closed: April 05, 2006, 10:52:33 PM)
yes - 4 (28.6%)
no - 8 (57.1%)
undecided - 2 (14.3%)
Total Voters: 14

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Author Topic: cloning  (Read 8294 times)
vmdoc2106
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« on: March 16, 2006, 10:52:33 PM »

as some of you know, i posted in decoding....i have recently confirmed that my 67 is not an RS and did not come with a vinyl top....it is a base model butternut yellow with black interior....V-8 with 4 spd trans....all the front sheet metal has been replaced under the impression that it was an RS... as that is what was on it when i purchased it....i do have "most" of the compents to make it an RS,  delima....my wife and i are nestolga buffs...i have not gone through the whole price for doing either restoration.....up to you as to what i do....i leaning towards original base model....nothing fancy, just nice...opinions?? Smiley
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rich69rs
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2006, 11:24:04 AM »

I vote (and voted) for non-cloning, however, I'm an original, as GM built it, kind of guy.

Fundamentally, nothing at all wrong with cloning, as long as full disclosure is made at time of sale.  Build the car to suit your wants and desires.

After all, cloning is really only a problem when it is done with the up front intention to deceive, the legal folks refer to it as fraud.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2006, 11:28:02 AM by rich69rs » Logged

Richard Thomas
1969 RS
lakeholme
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2006, 11:36:34 AM »

OK, you have to post us a picture...

My 68 was SS cloned by the previous owner.  Until I go to have it repainted, I'm driving it as is.  Then, I'm going back to original.  After all, isn't that what we are all about?  We love the Camaro --the original Camaro.

As to the black vinyl top, the previous owner added it to my buttewrnut yellow car.  I'll have to admit... it looks good.  I've seen several posts on other sites that claim a butternut yellow car is "incomplete" without that vinyl top.  But then, in both our cases, it would not be original.  You might want to look at my poll:
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=487.0

Of course, your car is your car... and if you are not going to show it... then it is up to you... as long as we all do like Rich69rs said and disclose at sale...

Let us know what you decide!
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Phillip
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2006, 03:55:04 PM »

I vote yes...only if u are doing it not to decieve someone as mentioned above. I have a friend that is building his dream car... a 68 Yenko...as a clone.... because thats as close as he will ever get to having a real one with the $$ they go for nowadays... he is honest about it though, he will straight up tell ya its a clone.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2006, 10:58:41 PM by thesupernova86 » Logged

David

1968 L30 4spd Huh, Rally Green, White Vinyl Top, Ivory Houndstooth Interior (716), D55 console, D91 Stripe
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2006, 08:24:19 PM »

I do not think adding hide away headlites and a couple of RS emblems is really cloning. Its a trim package the same as adding deluxe interior. IMO adding RS trim is a little different than cloning a Z28 or big block SS. If you found out after you bought your RS that it did not come that way from the factory i do not think it would make a big difference. But find out after you bought your L78 or Z28 that it did not come that way from the factory all hell is gonna break loose.
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rich69rs
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2006, 09:39:54 PM »

At least for the 1969 model year, a coupe to RS conversion is NOT simply adding hideaway headlights and a couple of badges.  Yes, it is a trim package, a very elegant and complicated trim package.  The differences are many - the RS variations from the  "standard body" include:

different outer fenders, different inner fenders, different grille, hideaway headlights (based on vacuum actuated, articulating, headlight mounting bracket to rotate the headlight covers in and back in the open position), inner and outer headlight door covers, vacuum cannisters, mounting brackets for the vacuum cannisters, vacuum reservoir, relay valve and the associated vacuum lines, different headlight switch with vacuum hose connections, different windshield wiper switch (2 dentent positions, first detent routes water to the windshield washer nozzles, second detent routes water to the headlight washer nozzles which spray water on the headlights), headlight washer nozzles, diverter valve on the windshield washer pump, water tubing from the diverter valve to the headlight washers, and even a difference in the front header panel to accomodate the headlight washers themselves --- even down to the miniscule items like the bracket that holds the windshield washer bottle - it is different on a RS vs. a base coupe or a base coupe Z28.  And this doesn't include the Style Trim RPO items that are a part of RPO Z22, the RS package.

It is very true that a base V8 RS Camaro is not valued as highly as a Z28 or other high performance variants.   However, you would probably be very surprised as to what a very nice 69 RS will sell for.  Just try to find one listed in Hemmings, not a RS/SS or a Z28 w/ RS.  Try and find a nice, fully functional 69 RS, they are very few and far between.

In a lot of ways, if done accurately and correctly, a more difficult conversion than a base coupe to Z28.  Now a Z28 with the RS package - that is a very cool ride.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2006, 02:23:29 AM by rich69rs » Logged

Richard Thomas
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vmdoc2106
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2006, 09:23:32 AM »

i will post a picture if needed, as soon as i can figure out how to do so, i am not real swift when it comes to computers.... when i do, please keep in mind that the car has been instorage for a long time and the restorstion thus far was done by a then 16-17 year old with no experiance
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Mark
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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2006, 10:41:19 PM »

The term cloning seems to be used way to much lately.  Adding Z28 emblems to a 6 cylinder car with a power glide transmission is not cloning, as it's not going to fool anyone (mostly anyone) into thinking the car really is a Z28.  Adding an option here or there, does not really fall under the definition of cloning.  The line seems to be crossed when a performance model is "cloned", calling a 307 base coupe, an SS for example.  Again slapping SS emblems on a car isn't going to fool a good portion of the people who know these cars.  Cloning really comes into play when an owner starts changing the trim tag, and restamping driveline components in an effort to enhance the price an otherwise lower value car will bring when it is sold.  Adding the RS option will bring more money at resale, but at least on a 67 the option is listed on the trim tag and pretty easy to verify.
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Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2006, 12:53:01 AM »

By and large, most here seem to feel that a cloned car is OK as long as there is full disclosure.  I agree totally with that. 
Look at the total number of cloned Yenko, COPO, SS, Z/28, etc. cars out there today.  It boggles the mind. Shocked

I will never see myself getting a true ZL-1 Camaro, but I'd love to own one.  Could I be coaxed into building a "tribute"
ZL-1 car?  Absolutely.  In fact, I'd love to build one like the design staff did for Vince Piggins back in late 1968
( black w/gold stripes ).  What an awesome car !  But, I won't make the mistake of buying an original ZL-1 block for
$10,000 then add all the goodies and a BE rear.  I'd get a new ZL-1 block ( far superior so I hear ), and build a BE rear.

In summation, build it that way you would have wanted to buy it if money was no object.  However, if you have a special
Camaro to start with, then this is a much tougher issue to ponder.  Hell, all those 6-banger Camaro's got to be good for
something - right!

Steve
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69 SS 396, Hugger Orange, D/80, D/90
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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2006, 02:08:16 AM »

nuch_ss396 on that note......I wouldnt mind seeing a few 6'ers restored... they are far to overlooked...   and it would be cool to see one concors restored!
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David

1968 L30 4spd Huh, Rally Green, White Vinyl Top, Ivory Houndstooth Interior (716), D55 console, D91 Stripe
nuch_ss396
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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2006, 08:14:10 PM »

I almost jumped on that band-wagon years ago.  I had my hands on a nice 230ci 69 Camaro.

No one thought it was even worth the trouble to restore it.  What do you do with it once
you are finished?  It's a two-minute conversation piece, then on the the next Z/28 on display.

Steve
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69 SS 396, Hugger Orange, D/80, D/90
Chambered Exhaust, N/66, THM400, 3:73 posi

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strat01
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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2006, 08:31:48 AM »

allmost all of the hotrodders will find a standard camaro and just "clone" the outside of the car and show off what they did. you never see a standard camaro restored, it's allways a "SS" or "RS" or "Z28". but look closer and it's a clone, or one that is a clone just on the outside. i have a 67 conv., standard even with a col shift and i'm restoring it like it is. but i have upgraded some things.and one more thing the clone is as good as the depth of your pockets.

Strat
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vmdoc2106
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« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2006, 04:43:39 PM »

i agree with and can see everyones point of view on this topic... i know that it is and has been an issue of great debate for years.   if money was not an issue, well........ i guess everyone can ansewr that one, money is always and issue, that's why the are called dreams.... but something inside me tells me to keep the car the way it was built.. as some of you have addressed already, you just do not see the originals anymore...when i think about  it, i cannot remember the last time i seen an original 6 cyl car that gramps used to drive for fun.... i can say that i have seen the SS, RS,& Z-28's all running the streets.   when was the last time someone seen a camaro all the same color, no vinyl with a 327 and 4 on the floor...because that is the way it was built...
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dab67
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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2006, 12:55:20 PM »

To Clone or not to Clone, that is the question. What makes you happy? Are you planning on selling the car or keeping it? The general feeling I get here is as long as you are up front on what you are doing, no one seems to mind. I have a 67 SS, I think! The cowl tag matches but the body tag doesn't. I didn't pay the amount that most true SS or RS that are matching numbers are worth.To me it is a Clone, nothing matches regarding the Engine, Tranny and Rear end, they are what they are suppose to be but  do not match regarding the assembly date of my car.  But it doesn't matter to me, I present it as a Clone and I bought it as such. I am thinking heavily on installing the RS package on my car next year. The whole kit, including wire harness, new front valance for the running lights, the fender brackets and braces, cutting the rear valance for the back up lights. If I'm going to clone, than it will be as close to correct as I can possibliy make it. I've seen alot of cars that added just enought to think their car will pass as an RS but to those who know, that is what really matters. . Then maybe I'll try and find matching numbers engine and Tranny. But it still will not be original. Have fun doing whatever you decide to do and enjoy it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dab67
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shift1313
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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2006, 07:51:54 PM »

my car is a 68 ss350 clone.  Ive had alot of trouble figuring out exactly what it is and thats the real pain.  Its got the 10bolt rear non posi but it does have muli leaf springs in the rear.  all the ss trim and a steel ss hood but the hood springs are wrong.  Front power disc brakes but they arent the 4piston calipers.  the motor is out of a 76ish canadian monte and the tranny is a turbo 350 so i know they arent orig.  The car was handed down to me but if I had purchased it I would have been very unhappy.  I did find for sale signs in the rear 1/4 window area in the fender listing it as an SS350 so i think when it was restored they "cloned" it to make some extra change.  Im with everyone else as long as you are honest about what it is at sale then no harm is done.

matt
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