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Author Topic: barrett jackson las vegas Z-28  (Read 69892 times)
hihorse
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« Reply #210 on: November 15, 2008, 07:47:50 AM »

Has become practice/acceptable to restamp engine pads, but I see the pad as the same importance as the hidden VIN's on the body/frame on a vehicle, they are all used to identify a vehicle to its serial number. Altering any of these VIN derivatives to match a VIN is illegal and all clubs including NCRS should not tolerate fraud from its membership.  Any car with a altered VIN or VIN derivative should NOT be allowed to be certified. For certification if all the VIN's check out then this would be the basis for the certification to build on. If a certifier cannot check VIN locations for whatever reason then a certification should not be given.
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Pacecarjeff
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« Reply #211 on: November 15, 2008, 08:16:34 AM »

NOT the same - the engine is a commonly replaced component
That is like saying it is not OK to stencil the VIN onto your glass - as many police departments do.
Adding YOUR vin to your legally obtained engine block - could be considered a similar security measure.

The hidden #'s were put in place to verify a vehicles body and title -
those same #'s were  stamped on the block only to prevent theft of that component.
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sdkar
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« Reply #212 on: November 15, 2008, 10:08:35 AM »

I understand what you mean when you say you want to stamp a partial VIN on your glass or your engine block to prevent theft.  However, I can not help but believe that 99.9% of VIN stamping on Camaro engine blocks is not due to concerns of theft.  The intent, I am sure, is deception and nothing less.  However, this is only my opinion and I could be wrong. 
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GaryL
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« Reply #213 on: November 15, 2008, 11:05:14 AM »

I read somewhere that only the hi-po engine blocks had a partial VIN stamp. That was to track warranties.

I would bet that the restamping of engines was just part of the la-la of Corvette show world. The original intent was not to commit fraud, but just build a car to participate with in shows. Just like the repro Cobra car world.
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Gary

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hihorse
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« Reply #214 on: November 15, 2008, 11:33:32 AM »






 So when a guy broaches a block then restamps his VIN derivative, this is purely for theft reasons?
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Pacecarjeff
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« Reply #215 on: November 15, 2008, 11:57:47 AM »

No -- it is to make it appear as delivered for judging points. Just like buying any correct looking repro part.

I agree with NCRS - as John Z previously provided =
"if the pad surface and stampings appear to be typical of factory production and haven't been counterfeited to make the engine appear to be a different configuration than it was originally"

Why should this be a crime?
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sdkar
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« Reply #216 on: November 15, 2008, 12:44:49 PM »

It may not be a crime as in criminal law, get arrested and go to jail...but it is a civil "crime" so to speak.  Trust me, if someone stamps a partial VIN on an engine that is not original to the car it is in, there is a cause of action and the person who was duped can take the seller to court and will WIN.  I know this FIRST HAND and can vouch to the fact that if you misrepresent an engine as original and you have a re-stamped engine in a car and try to pass it off as a numbers matching engine...you will lose and the penalty will not be small.  Trust me on this.  Jerry was involved in this case and his testimony would have been irrefutable.  God himself could not oppose Jerry when it comes to Camaro certification.
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hihorse
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« Reply #217 on: November 15, 2008, 07:19:11 PM »

Partial VIN's I believe are not used to prevent theft but to identify recovered bodies/ drivetrains that have had the VIN's removed.
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Hylton
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« Reply #218 on: November 25, 2008, 09:47:32 AM »

It may not be a crime as in criminal law, get arrested and go to jail...but it is a civil "crime" so to speak.  Trust me, if someone stamps a partial VIN on an engine that is not original to the car it is in, there is a cause of action and the person who was duped can take the seller to court and will WIN.  I know this FIRST HAND and can vouch to the fact that if you misrepresent an engine as original and you have a re-stamped engine in a car and try to pass it off as a numbers matching engine...you will lose and the penalty will not be small.  Trust me on this.  Jerry was involved in this case and his testimony would have been irrefutable.  God himself could not oppose Jerry when it comes to Camaro certification.

You are referring to fraudulent misrepresentation. The act of stamping numbers on a block is not illegal - it's when you sell it as something it's not that the line gets crossed. If someone sold a car and stated the block was re-stamped, no law has been broken.
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It's impossible to have a valid certificate of authenticity without verifying that it is not a rebody.
sdkar
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« Reply #219 on: November 25, 2008, 01:45:34 PM »

Okay...let's say you re-stamp a VIN on an engine and then sell the car and you tell the buyer all about the re-stamping.  Then he sell's the car.  Maybe he is as honest and forthcoming as the guy who sells it to him, maybe he is not.  I am not going to say it will always happen, but I am willing to bet that in some cases, somewhere down the line, someone is going to buy that car and be mislead that the engine is "original".  There is now a cause of action and I can think of several counts that would apply.  The likelihood of being successful in court against the seller or one of the previous owners all the way back to the original stamper in increased dramatically.  A studious lawyer can go all the way down the line if need be and if the lineage can be traced, each owner may have some questions to answer in the form of subpoena.  If the information is what the lawyer is looking for, some of these previous owners may find themselves named as additional defendants if the lawyers so wishes and especially if there is deep pockets somewhere in this chain.  Everyone involved will be enticed to participate in a civil lawsuit to some degree.  They may not be found for any wrongdoing or have to pay money, but questions will be asked and answers can be compelled by the courts if the lawyer wants to go that far.  As for the criminal law and the illegality, I am not sure.  Again, an over zealous police officer could make a connection and start filing charges based on the VIN stamping and the circumstances.  It may not be against the  law per se, but the law is written vague for a reason and wiggle room is there to make any case.  For someone to say they are stamping a VIN on an engine purely for restoration is a stretch.  Maybe it is legal and maybe not.  It's up to the police officer to make a case and the state attorney to agree or not.  If you are going to use that argument, then what if I buy a dynacorn body and stamp a VIN on it purely for "restoration" purposes only and I am just "re-creating" what the factory did.  If I am a cop, and I can convince the state attorney you stamped that VIN, on any part of the car, in order to take advantage of someone or mislead someone and there is a victim, I can make a case.  You see, adding the VIN to the engine is a slippery slope.  Where does it end.  I am not stating that every engine re-stamping is illegal, but the likelihood of someone getting burned is greatly increased.  And if that person wanted to make a big deal out of it, he can.  It is only my opinion, but merely stamping codes and part numbers on an engine or any body part that would normally have it,  may be okay, but there seems to be a line that is crossed when you start stamping VINs or partial VINS on any part.  Again, just my opinion.   
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Hylton
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« Reply #220 on: November 25, 2008, 03:34:07 PM »


^^^Happens everyday actually. Probably happened with this BJ car. How in law, can the first person in the food chain be held responsible for the actions of the person down the line? He can't. He can be accused to be the person who initially lied/misled but that's how civil law works. I can sue you for slander/libel tomorrow and keep throwing lawyers at you until you run out of money trying to defend yourself. Doesn't mean you really did it. Welcome to the real world.
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It's impossible to have a valid certificate of authenticity without verifying that it is not a rebody.
jdv69z
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« Reply #221 on: November 25, 2008, 03:58:39 PM »

Is there a lawyer in the house?  I don't see how re-stamping a VIN on anything can be anything but illegal. Otherwise, what's to stop someone from re-creating whatever vehicle they choose?

Jimmy V.
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Jimmy V.
chevyman555
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« Reply #222 on: November 25, 2008, 10:25:14 PM »

I can't speak to every state as each state can pass laws so long as they are not inconsistent with federal law. In Kansas, it is not a crime (violation of a state statute identifying a criminal offense) to stamp a VIN on a block.  VINS on bodys, whether stamped or attached are another matter as federal laws apply - the VINS control title and can not be modified unless a salvage vehicle title is acquired in the case of a build and in that instance the title must reflect the fact.  Back to Kansas.  Stamping a VIN on a block is no different than creating a clone Z-28.  The crime occurs when the person with knowledge of the fact misrepresents the fact in the sale of the car.  However, this is rarely prosecuted as a crime because the trial of the case becomes a he said/she said liars contest and they just don't have the time or the resources to get involved in what would otherwise be a private action between two parties.  The common venue is civil court seeking damages or recission of the contract.  Most of the time, the action is brought pursuant a consumer protection act which provides for damages or civil penalties arising out of the fraud or misrepresentation - considered a "deceptive" or "unconconscionable" practice.  The consumer can even recover attorney fees. Like Kansas, most states districit attorneys have a consumer fraud division and that division can bring the civil action as if it were a crime on behalf of the buyer.  However, those offices generaly only prosecute those cases if more than one consumer is aggreived by a deceptive or uncosnciobale act of a seller.  Long and short. most states do not have laws prohibiting stamping VINs on component parts and the states attorneys are reluctant to get involved inthe prosecution of cases where it is done to perpetuate a fraud.
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dutch
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« Reply #223 on: November 29, 2008, 02:05:19 PM »



   So any news or rumours regarding the green car from the BJ auction or has this whole issue fallen off the face of the earth? Seems that this thread has degenerated back to the same old discussion of how legal or ethical restamping blocks and shells are in various areas of the country rather than digging up or reporting any news of the actual deal that prompted this thread in the first place.
   I would have hoped that something would have come of it since in my humble opinion it sits as another of those benchmarks as to where the collector car hobby/business is headed and it sure doesn't look good if this thread and lack of news about that deal indicates the issue is all but covered up...
   I am or would not be surprised if this is 'swept under the rug' in time for the next BJ auction (don't really keep track of them so another may have passed in the meantime) but I wish and hope it isn't obviously. 
   The smug, self assurred demeanor of the BJ principals and how they stop bidding to browbeat bidders when they don't feel the bid price is sufficiently high enough on certain vehicles they apparently have connections to, has never sat well with me when I have watched and it is patently clear what they are doing.
   For that if for no other reason, I would have hoped that this green car story would have played out more and made more than just the buyer and seller responsible in this instance since they weren't the only ones who knew or were involved in this smelly deal as we all have heard.
   Actually, I guess there are other reasons I tune in occasionally - I'm also mildly curious of who will be the next person stupid enough to spend a ridiculous amount to get a car that matches his jacket (2 minutes of fame/in the spotlight and all that...) - Randy
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GaryL
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« Reply #224 on: November 29, 2008, 09:14:22 PM »

Randy, I would bet that the pricipals invovled with the car/sale etc. are keeping a lid on it now. Too much money and a reputation to uphold for the buyer and seller/restorer. Maybe lawyers are invovled as well.
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Gary

Lemans Blue X33. DZ, M20, manual steering. Only BU code rear end is original.
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