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Author Topic: barrett jackson las vegas Z-28  (Read 72989 times)
DougD
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« Reply #195 on: November 02, 2008, 06:18:58 PM »

to be fair i will answer your question.i have been on this site since the beginning.i choose to not say who i am.i have a certified Jm 69 z.i purchased it 4-5 years ago and it came with jm certs.so this topic is important to me.but lets not talk about whos posting ok?lets talk about the subject on hand.thank you.

Date Registered:  October 19, 2008, 06:38:41 PM


If you're hiding under a duplicate account, it's far from appreciated and I will be verifying that.  Cowardly starts to be an apt description.
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Mark
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« Reply #196 on: November 02, 2008, 06:39:51 PM »

I guess he means he's been here since the begining of this thread.
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Mark C.
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11
fordrocks
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« Reply #197 on: November 02, 2008, 07:39:44 PM »

dougD,please get off it!this this thread is not about me!carry on with the subject!
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fordrocks
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« Reply #198 on: November 02, 2008, 07:43:02 PM »

am i able to post some questions without ridicule?what is this site?communist?
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samanatoo
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« Reply #199 on: November 02, 2008, 09:09:48 PM »

Fordrocks, I am tired of all of your input! Please let us all get a bit of rest!  I am not into posting without reguard, but you are making me very tired.    Let it go and move on.      The car in question "is what is it is " and move on.  I bet I speak in behalf of all people on this site.   

 
With a site name like FORDROCKS, A person would be retarded not to relize what you are doing, leave us ALONE and move on, please remove him from the CRG site.  Thank You.  Just my input!   
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KurtS
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« Reply #200 on: November 02, 2008, 11:08:49 PM »

fordrocks,
This site tends to be more research oriented and hence more reserved. Observing the different etiquette of this site would go a long way towards easing tensions here. It would also help if you didn't post three times in a row.  Wink

Others,
Eliminate the name-calling and other unbecoming behaviors....

Thanks!
Kurt - moderator
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 01:34:51 AM by KurtS » Logged

Kurt S
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JoeC
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« Reply #201 on: November 03, 2008, 09:24:10 AM »

Without knowing all the facts, I tend to think, “What are the odds”?

We have Jerry, who has 30 plus years experience with an excellent resume a mile long VS a guy who restored a rust bucket Camaro into a “Cross Ram Z/28” and brought it to BJ to shoot for the moon.

Best I can do for you is 99 to 1.
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Pacecarjeff
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« Reply #202 on: November 03, 2008, 09:43:31 AM »

Exactly - Like I said before.
"If done by an expert - the appraiser could never tell - and the auction house would never know.
The only one who would know for sure is the person doing the "change" work, or the person ordering it done."

There are so many scams out there - fake tags, repro bodies, POP's...  ect. making it very difficult to catch.
This car used all real stuff, and a real body shell - IMO this would have fooled any expert.
without taking the car apart it would be impossible to tell a rebody

If not for the ebay stuff, and a former owner - this may have been the perfect crime
I wonder if there are other similar cars built at this particular shop?

Who would have thought?
I guess this is a lesson for the criminals - you can't just go buy some tags, an appraisal, and a body, to build yourself a pedigree.
The truth will come out in the end.

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carguy
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« Reply #203 on: November 03, 2008, 09:51:25 AM »

Following the various threads on this subject has been quite disturbing to me.   I was taught early on to trust people unless they prove otherwise.  It always bothers me though when I come upon a life lesson such as what has been discussed here that again tells me to be skeptical of everything.

Yet, I am amazed at some of the things I see in my hobby that I enjoy so much.  While I have owned a number of Z-28’s my main experience has been in the corvette World.  In that world when someone says that something is certified the image of Bloomington Gold and a thorough vetting of the car by experts comes to mind.  Yes, it can be either Bloomington Silver or Gold certified which anyone that has been around the hobby for any period of time knows means two quite different things.  If there is any question about a engine pad the best it will earn is silver.  I had assumed that certification by Jerry McNeish, when used to market a car, was similar to Bloomington Gold Certification.  Based on Jerry’s reputation I thought certification in this sense meant that the drive train was at a minimum original.  Otherwise, I still cannot think of any reason why it would be called certified.   I am guessing many others that are not as well versed in the Camaro hobby as most of you would come to a similar conclusion.  With Jerry’s well deserved reputation the loose use of “certified and documented by Jerry M.” and dropping it at that could lead someone not as experienced as most on this forum to a very expensive lesson.  My assumptions are my mistake as I should have been more skeptical.

It is also very troubling to me that the restorer would post what Jerry M says is the  initial report as the report in the manner that he did on his web site assuming he has the final report.  Reading Jerry’s comments about when the final report was sent leaves me with only one conclusion, which is that he received the final report.  We have not heard from the restorer and there very well could be another side of this story that has not been told.   I then re-read the auction description provided by the owner and my personal decision is to add this name to others that I have learned to give a wide swath away from if they are offering cars for sale until I know more.  Just my opinion which means nothing, but I would guess others have come to a similar conclusion. 

I have learned many expensive lessons through the years that have taught me to be very skeptical of car descriptions provided by owners at auctions.  This thread has taught me to be even more skeptical and the neat thing is it cost me nothing more than my time.  If you are not comfortable in your knowledge you need to have someone much more experienced look closely at the car and tell you exactly what it is.  The only time that I have not practiced this is when the car has been thoroughly vetted in competition judging and I can personally view those sheets.  My new skeptical self says still look very closely because some of the rare expensive components might have been removed since judging.  I had also placed great emphasis on expert certifications provided by the seller, but thanks to this thread that mistake will not be made again.

It was said several times in some of the threads that there are “seller” reports and “buyer” reports.  I sure hope this practice does not exist.  If the report is to mean anything and the experts opinion to be relied upon it needs to say the same thing regardless of who is paying for it.  I would be very surprised if this practice exists.

I have been an active buyer and seller of collector cars at most of the auctions.  I have the utmost respect for Barrett-Jackson.  My personal experience is that Barrett Jackson goes to great lengths to verify cars.  If you are claiming that your car has special awards, documentation, etc. you must send copies of your documentation to them before they will accept a consignment.  Based on the information that you give them if they feel there is anything amiss in the description it must be changed.  This is very impressive in my view, as I personally do not know of any other auction house that goes to this length.  However, I am not inferring in any way that this happened in this instance as I have no dog in this fight and have no real knowledge of what actually happened other than what I have read on the internet, what would happened if Jerry was issuing two reports and a seller sent only the initial report to Barrett?  Would it not be fair to assume that they would conclude what most concluded after reading the first report for this car that the car was the real deal?  Without additional information the assumption could easily be made from what we have heard on the threads that the first report was used to market this car.

I greatly respect Jerry M. and all that he has done to improve our hobby.  Without the help of such dedicated people the hobby would not be what it is today.  I am hoping that he and the other experts will learn from this as all of us have.  At a minimum, if two reports are issued the first should read DRAFT.  Further, the negative aspects of the report should be more clearly noted.

Whatever comes of this and irregardless of who is at fault here it makes those of us that are trying to be honest in our dealings have to work a lot harder to gain others confidence.  Perhaps this is the way it should be, but I sure liked it better when I could assume everyone was being honest until they proved otherwise.

I grew up on a small farm.  At an early age Dad taught me what a spade was.  He taught me to never call that spade anything but a spade and to apply this lesson to life.   He said “people can and will trust you if you always call a spade a spade and nothing more”.   He also said “It is OK to call it the nicest spade in the world as long as it truly is”.  If it has it’s original sharpness to the blade it is OK to tell others of this, but if you have sharpened it or placed a new blade on the spade you need to tell others about this when you are trying to sell it.  He then pointed to a hoe and said that if anyone ever tries to tell me that that a hoe is a spade I need to give that guy a wide berth.  He would be shocked today that they are even trying to pass off a new item which they call a Ho as a spade.  I doubt that he would be real pleased with this turn of events.
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JL8Jeff
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« Reply #204 on: November 03, 2008, 02:10:43 PM »

You can't compare Corvettes to Camaros since all Corvettes were all pretty much sports cars.  The Camaro is a low cost sedan that has lots of performance/dress up options but also came in a very base stripped down model so grandma could get to the store.  So a Z28, SS, RS, Pace Car, COPO all have highly desired options which enhance the car.  Jerry is certifying or verifying that a car is one of these models.  He then goes on to explain the level of authenticity and originality.  There are no standards for certifying Camaros so never assume anything.  I'm sure Jerry has certified lots of Z28's even though their original drivetrain may be long gone.  Paperwork and other original parts help to identify some of these models.  Old dealer records he might have also help to verify certain cars.  We all seem to be using Jerry as an example here, but what about the Mopar certifications and Ford certifications?  How are they done?  I've personally seen an AAR Cuda or Challenger TA that was 2 car halves welded together!  What do they do with cars like that?  This is not specifically a Camaro issue, it's a classic car issue.  Look at the number of LS6 Chevelle convertibles that seem to be popping up lately.  Lots of fake buildsheets running around with Chevelles now, so never assume paperwork is legit without checking with an expert that particular make/model car. 
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1969 Z28 JL8 4 wheel disc brakes, #'s match, crossram, GM fiberglass crossram hood, TI, Minilite wheels - being restored
mrdetails
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« Reply #205 on: November 03, 2008, 03:29:23 PM »

So you guy's, what about these stock markets.....
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firstgenaddict
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« Reply #206 on: November 03, 2008, 04:28:48 PM »

much rather have blue chip muscle
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James
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Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://picasaweb.google.com/112392262205377424364/1969_Z28_Restoration
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« Reply #207 on: November 03, 2008, 04:31:38 PM »

..........  There are no standards for certifying Camaros so never assume anything.  I'm sure Jerry has certified lots of Z28's even though their original drivetrain may be long gone.  .........

A car does not cease to be what it is, just because an original engine is not in the car. It used to be more so than now that a car needing an engine would get an exchange at the shop. No one really cared back then. Only recently has the hobby put more emphasis on original parts. Don't cloud what happened here. A crook made something into something it never was.  I have not seen a recognized national body to develope standards. I guess Corvette guys are happy with non-original parts since here are more Tri-powered cars now than were ever built. I think it is a different world they live with their cars. Kind of like the Cobra kit car people. I don't mean any disrespect either. Smiley
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Gary

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69LM1
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« Reply #208 on: November 03, 2008, 04:47:33 PM »

I have heard that it is acceptible to have a corvette with a stamped engine pad, which seems different that the camaro world if correct.

Rich
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Rich Pern
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JohnZ
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« Reply #209 on: November 04, 2008, 11:41:09 AM »

I have heard that it is acceptible to have a corvette with a stamped engine pad, which seems different that the camaro world if correct.

Rich

That's correct, if the pad surface and stampings appear to be typical of factory production and haven't been counterfeited to make the engine appear to be a different configuration than it was originally. In NCRS Flight Judging, a non-typical pad results in an 88-point deduction (25% of the points allocated to the block); in Bloomington Gold judging, a non-typical pad results in the car being "boxed" to a maximum of "Silver" - the car can't earn "Gold" regardless of how good the rest of the car is.
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