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Author Topic: barrett jackson las vegas Z-28  (Read 73739 times)
Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #105 on: October 28, 2008, 11:02:19 PM »


I am just back from a drag race this weekend and trying to get caught up. 

I will make a short reply here and everyone can decide for themselves.  When K. Waters hired me to inspect his car, he was mainly interested in having me judge the car and flag anything that was not correct on the car.  His plans were to bring this car to the Camaro Nationals in June and have it judged in the Legends class if there was room, or the Bow Tie class.  I evaluated the car, quality of the restoration and paperwork and wrote a three page report.  I was never told by anyone that the car was rebodied.  K. Waters told me that this car was rough and much of the sheet metal had to be replaced. 

I cannot post my reports on a public forum as they are not for the world to see.  Any work that I do for a client is between me and the client.  As a licensed appraiser this is all part of an ethics cause in which I must abide.  Any issues regarding this car and anyone who sold paperwork and or vin tags without a car is between the sellers and buyers........not me.  On a fully restored car, it is near impossible to tell if a vin has been restamped in the cowl area.  With fresh new paint, you can't ask a client to remove this paint so stampings and sheet metal can be inspected............and if welded in by a professional, it is very hard to tell from the underside too!  With the new base coat clear coat paint systems, it's very difficult to verify #'s stamped here when a car is painted.  All I can do is evaluate the car and all components that are on the car.  I can evaluate the stampings, vin tag, paperwork and trim tag. 

I have been involved as an expert witness with several court cases where high end Yenko Camaros and Z28s have had the upper cowl vin restamped or replaced.  As we know, this is not good for the hobby.  There are people in the sheet metal and body shop business who can switch out a cowl vin and you'd never know anything was done.  That's scary but a fact of life.  This is why owner and car history should be an important part of your research when buying a 1st Gen Camaro.  Don't buy and ask questions later.  As a licensed appraiser, author, Camaro expert and national judge, I always try to provide the most accurate inspection service available to the Camaro hobbyist.       

Jerry         

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fireZ
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« Reply #106 on: October 29, 2008, 07:56:08 AM »

Well said Jerry ,this should put the matter to rest on this site .
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« Reply #107 on: October 29, 2008, 10:15:31 AM »

Not sure if this really puts the matter to rest.

Jerry has stated no one told him it was a rebody and the way his posts do read implies that it is indeed a rebody without the original drive train.  A few post earlier 200MPH aka Mike Joy states infactidly that the car is the real deal, not a rebody,  with the original drive train and all "born with  the car" trim tags, vin and hidden vins.  Furthermore he goes on to say that he has seen Jerry's report and there is no note in that report of the car not having an original drivetrain and that Jerry is confused with the other two cars he looked at the restorer's shop.

I can see Jerry coming forward to protect his name and to set the record straight while still protecting the integrity of being a licensed appraiser by not fully releasing the report. However I am confused and do not understand why Mike Joy is posting claims the car is real and, in essence, telling Jerry he is mistaken and has the cars confused. Does Mike Joy have a dog in this hunt?  He seems to be the only one that believes the car is 100% wiith all the original born with items mentioned real despite overwhelming evidence that surely does indicate otherwise. There have been a lot of well known Camaro people weighing in on this not only on this site but SYC and Team Camaro as well that dispute the claims that 200MPH is making. I know he is tied into Speed who is tied into BJ and obviously this is not good PR for BJ, especially considering what has happened in the past couple of auctions where you had a Judge chain his car, serious questions as to schill bidding or deceptive bidding practices as well as a well known writer being tossed from the event by security.  Don't know about you, but I'm waiting to see what happens in Scottsdale in less than 90 days.



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jdv69z
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« Reply #108 on: October 29, 2008, 10:29:56 AM »

As a regular reader of the posts on this site, I have learned enough about auctions and BJ to know that you can't believe everything they claim. Buyer beware applies everywhere.

Just more support for this site and how valuable it is.

Jimmy V.
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Jimmy V.
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« Reply #109 on: October 29, 2008, 11:33:45 AM »

Even owner history and testimony is not perfect.
A past owner who changed something - will never admit he was the one who did it.

Just follow the tags - who bought the paperwork on ebay?
Then - who sold the stuff on a body - and who purchased it?

If done by an expert - the appraiser could never tell - and the auction house would never know.
And if the restorer got it already like that - he may not be able to tell either.

The only one who would know for sure is the person doing the "change"work, or the person ordering it done.
When you document a restoration, you don't take pictures of the engine re-stamp process - you take them after it is done.

Does anyone have a record of the ebay body sale? - are the hidden Vin's shown?

There is a gray area there... the time in between the tag sale, and the body sale with the tags installed.
After that - everyone might be innocent.   unless it needed additional work to correct the changes.

Just my opinion - I could be wrong.
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al8apex
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« Reply #110 on: October 29, 2008, 12:08:53 PM »


Just follow the tags - who bought the paperwork on ebay?
Then - who sold the stuff on a body - and who purchased it?

I do recall the car in question, body per se, that was discussed on the Camaro web forum some two years ago or so

showed two "Z28" rolling shells in a rural looking shop, one was cut in green and the other I can't recall the color of

it was a body shop that was selling them, maybe some searches will unearth the ebay item number, but it would be unlikely you would be able to pull up the sale ... possible, but not likely
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dutch
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« Reply #111 on: October 29, 2008, 09:57:35 PM »




I will make a short reply here and everyone can decide for themselves.  When K. Waters hired me to inspect his car, he was mainly interested in having me judge the car and flag anything that was not correct on the car.  His plans were to bring this car to the Camaro Nationals in June and have it judged in the Legends class if there was room, or the Bow Tie class.  I evaluated the car, quality of the restoration and paperwork and wrote a three page report.  I was never told by anyone that the car was rebodied.  K. Waters told me that this car was rough and much of the sheet metal had to be replaced.      

Jerry         



   This pretty much helps me make up my own mind as I feel it should do for others...
   Is it just me or do others also feel that this is a situation where Jerry's name has been used or abused to give this car legitimacy and profile in it's subsequent sale by the owner(s) and action house all of who stand to gain greatly by it? On face value, I feel once anyone sees his name attached to a vehicle it is automatically assumed that Jerry has certified it by making a distinctive and in depth inspection to determine that is truly what it is promoted to be - often without fully reading or knowing the detail in the actual report itself.
   What is appears to have been done is that they asked for an inspection to verify that the car in question was capable of attaining a certain degree of correctness in a judged sense without completely following through and asking for complete certification of it as a true numbers matching, original vehicle as was apparently stated in the seller's and BJ promotion of it prior to and during the auction itself.
   This sort of splitting hairs I agree, but for the BJ and the seller to be able to attach Jerry's name to the advertising documentation immediately and wrongfully (in thsi case) puts forth to buyers the illusion the car has been attested to by Mr. MacNeish as being what they are stating it is, instead of just a car he deems worthy of attaining a certain degree of show correctness - no minor feat mind you - but a big difference none the less in my eyes.
   Buyers and people in general who might be interested in such a vehicle will sometimes only hear what they want to hear and in this case I consider that by attaching Jerry's name to the sales hype it was automatically assumed to be a more 'definitive' (pardon me) determination of the cars real value and legitimacy than it really deserved. 
   I'm sure it helped the sale greatly, but I feel that possibly the distinction between the wording 'inspection' 'judge' and 'certification' may be getting lost in all of this... - Randy   
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dutch
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« Reply #112 on: October 29, 2008, 10:04:50 PM »

[
   I'm sure it helped the sale greatly, but I feel that possibly the distinction between the wording 'inspection' 'judge' and 'certification' may be getting lost in all of this... - Randy   
[/quote]

   I meant to add Jerry's word 'evaluated' to go along with 'inspection' 'judge' verses the word 'certification'...  - Randy

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JimM
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« Reply #113 on: October 29, 2008, 10:12:21 PM »

What about here?
Kurt S has poosted that he had direct conversations with Gary when they tags and docs were separated from the car and listed for sale.

Kurt also posted that the sale of the body with this vin was discussed here.

In case it's not anywhere else, we're talking about vin 124379N509335 body # NOR102583 dated 09C

As for Jerry, he's telling us what he can. This I evaluated the car, quality of the restoration and paperwork and wrote a three page report.  I was never told by anyone that the car was rebodied.  K. Waters told me that this car was rough and much of the sheet metal had to be replaced.  
tells much of the story. The "quality of the restoration" certainly implies the car was complete and together when inspected, contrary to Mike Joy's statement.
"I was never told that the car was rebodied" could be read a couple different ways....
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fordrocks
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« Reply #114 on: October 29, 2008, 10:20:57 PM »

so if im reading this correctly,
jerry wrote a 3 page report.
he did not notice or decide if the car is/was a rebody.
we all know that the car was a re-body.

so now we all want to know whats happening in the littigation.

jerry,is there a littigation or investigation? just answer that one question since we already know many other answers.






I will make a short reply here and everyone can decide for themselves.  When K. Waters hired me to inspect his car, he was mainly interested in having me judge the car and flag anything that was not correct on the car.I evaluated the car, quality of the restoration and paperwork and wrote a three page report.  I was never told by anyone that the car was rebodied.  K. Waters told me that this car was rough and much of the sheet metal had to be replaced. 

Any issues regarding this car and anyone who sold paperwork and or vin tags without a car is between the sellers and buyers........not me.  On a fully restored car, it is near impossible to tell if a vin has been restamped in the cowl area.  With fresh new paint, you can't ask a client to remove this paint so stampings and sheet metal can be inspected............and if welded in by a professional, it is very hard to tell from the underside too!  With the new base coat clear coat paint systems, it's very difficult to verify #'s stamped here when a car is painted.  All I can do is evaluate the car and all components that are on the car.  I can evaluate the stampings, vin tag, paperwork and trim tag. 


Jerry    


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samanatoo
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« Reply #115 on: October 29, 2008, 10:30:07 PM »

I see this as one big giant MESS, Jerry's name was used in vague (seller did not disclose the whole report just used his name) all to pump up the product to be sold at BJ.  It is a shame and I do not see this going away soon.  Any buyer of a car like this should have someone look it over even if it is certed by Jerry and to read the whole report or was the full report even disclosed?Huh  If someone is willing to shell out 120+ Grand for this car than maybe they either really did not care about the money or they were mistaken. I would like to see the buyer of this car come out and have something to say. Not friends or someone who knows the car or someone else.  Jerry was straight up with me with what he saw with my car and what he wrote in the report. That is what he is paid to do,  not to dismantle or strip paint on a car esp. one that just recieved a very high end resto.    
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carguy
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« Reply #116 on: October 29, 2008, 10:37:32 PM »

I am sure this has been a great learning experience for all of us.  Like many others, but probably none of you, when I read a description for a car in the past and it said that the car was certified and documented by Jerry M. dumb me assumed this meant that the drive train was original and there were no questions about the trim tag.  It never dawned on me that he was certifying anything else or perhaps nothing at all other than he made a report on the car.  It was certainly my conclusion as well as many of my experienced car friends that read the description on the green Z that a certification meant a certification when we were in Vegas for the auction.  My thought was his certification was similar to the good housekeeping seal.  Similar thoughts for mopars documented and inspected by Galen.

Thanks to this thread I have learned a very valuable lesson that cost me nothing.  This is that a certification apparently only means that Jerry has inspected the car.  Nothing more.  The thread has taught me a great lesson to dig deeper and really pay attention to the report.  Same goes for Galen or any other expert.

It seems to me though that when an expert inspects a car and it meets a certain criteria it only then has the right to be called certified or?  If it is does not meet that criteria it should not be allowed to be called certified or ?  To me that criteria should at a minimum include requirements for an original driveline which includes the block plus verification of the authenticity of the trim tag.  It would be really neat if the leading experts in the industry that provide these services would take from this experience the need to create a standard explanation for what they have found that is clearly understood within the hobby. 

It is similar to the claim from some Pontiac owners that their car is PHS Documented.  The un-initiated would think the car was restored to the PHS specs.  However, when one digs deeper through the PHS report it is not at all unusual to find that the car has been painted a different color than what it was born with, options such as A/C, Special Hurst packages, power steering, etc. has been added by the restorer.  It is also kind of scary to see a yellow high hi-lighter in the sellerís pocket.

Same goes for the matching numbers claim.  What exactly is matching numbers?  Many of us are afraid to call even an original survivor car matching numbers for fear someone will find some obscure component that is not correct such as a wiper blade, cigarette lighter, etc. that could technically unwind a sale.  Yet we continue to see re-stamped cars called matching numbers.

In the end I realize it is Buyer Beware.  However, if Certifications or whatever you want to call them are to mean anything I really feel they should be based on solid criteria.  Otherwise, why would anyone want to pay for a "certification" especially in light of what we have learned here?   When someone that paid the expert for his services misuses the word certified or ? then they should be called out.

The car hobby is my passion.  I really enjoy seeing others have that same passion.  However, when one gets sucked in on some of the shady descriptions seen today and then finds out the truth it sucks the passion out of the most fervent hobbyist.  With this forum and others plus some help from our experts perhaps we might be able to stop some of this abuse.

Just my 2 cents.
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fordrocks
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« Reply #117 on: October 29, 2008, 11:17:03 PM »

excellent post carguy!

i completely agree.
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JL8Jeff
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« Reply #118 on: October 30, 2008, 07:47:38 AM »

I can understand your frustration with not knowing what "certified" means, but if you never ask "what does the certification mean", it's the same as never asking "what does matching #'s mean".  You basically assumed you knew what "certified by JM" meant and took it at face value.  Do any of these people who certify or authenticate cars go and scrape paint off to check for welding around the hidden VIN areas?  I seriously doubt it.  I'm sure this same scenario is why Ed C stopped certifying COPO cars.  People twist the meaning to be deceitfull and misrepresent a car to make profit off of it.  Since we can't seem to get a standard definition of "number's matching", I know we'll never get a standard definition of "certified".  That shouldn't stop people from wanting to get their car certified, Jerry provides a great service to help people restore their cars back to original by pointing out things that are incorrect.  If you want to buy a car that is certified, ask to see the entire report and any hesitation should raise a flag.
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1969 Z28 JL8 4 wheel disc brakes, #'s match, crossram, GM fiberglass crossram hood, TI, Minilite wheels - being restored
Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #119 on: October 30, 2008, 08:19:09 AM »

There is no investigation on the Kent Waters car as of now that I know of.  I wish I could share more with this forum but I cannot.  If someone were to buy the car and show new ownership, I can update my report and pass it along to the new owner.  If Kent or Ron Pratt tells me that I can pass the information along, then I would be glad to post the photos and report on this car.

I must also tell everyone here that Kent was manily interested in having the car pre-judged for the Camaro Nats.  When I inispect a car for someone who is looking to buy a car, my focus goes in a different direction.  But again when looking at the hidden vins, you can only do so much on a finished car.  Project cars are much easier to do.

For all that think I have a great and easy job doing what I do at CHP and running the business, that is not the case.  There is a lot of responsibility that goes into each and every report and all the component work that we do in the shop.  Many clients out there who I have worked for know that I have saved MANY people from purchasing a bad or the wrong Camaro.  I also have the proper licensing and legal credentials to do this work.  I suspect that many of you know that others who have done this work in the past in our arena do not have proper licensing?  Something to think about!

I should also state here that if a drive train is stated as original in one of my reports, it will read "oem to car or vehicle" or "the stampings on this drive train are authentic and do match others in the CHP data base."  The CHP data base is a large file of original stampings and data that I've accumulated over the past 25 years.  Not to be confused with the CRG data base.

Jerry
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