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Author Topic: barrett jackson las vegas Z-28  (Read 68857 times)
Classicgary
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« on: October 17, 2008, 02:39:46 PM »

My curiosity was peaked the other day when i opened my recent issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines and saw a picture of what could be my old RS Z28. It's a TWIN. Except for the stripes missing over the fender wells, the picture is my old car. Then i went to the B/J web site and checked the description of the car and the paper work that came with it, and it's the very same as the paper work i had. Is there any way to check the VIN on the B/J car to see ? ...... And really, just how many early production, ralley green, ralley sport, Z-28's could there be, with a flat hood, and optional headrests, narrow rear spoiler, enduro bumper, ect.............I mean it's an identicle twin !

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tom
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« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2008, 03:03:25 PM »

If you still have the paperwork, I would consider contacting BJ, but can you prove the old car is gone? Legal issues could get ugly. Have you shared the info, vin etc, on the Z with this forum?
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69 X11 Z21 L14 glide
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Classicgary
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« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2008, 03:08:37 PM »

short answer: yes, CRG knows of the paper work on my old car.....

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sd1968z28
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« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2008, 03:14:44 PM »

what did you do with the paper work?
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Classicgary
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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2008, 03:20:38 PM »

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KurtS
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« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2008, 05:07:18 PM »

Yup, that's probably your old car.
I thought when you sold the paperwork, it included a shell?

If not, then it got a new shell......
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Kurt S
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Classicgary
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« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2008, 05:53:41 PM »

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cjm465
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« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2008, 05:58:10 PM »

Is this the one. Certified by Jerry, crossram etc......looks like an early tag.

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/application/search/carlist_Details.aspx?&In_LotNumber=793
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Classicgary
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2008, 08:06:55 PM »

yup. by the time I got it (in 197?), the original engine was gone and an LT-1 350 was in the car. It still had the original  M-20 Munchie and rear axle ect. (a 3.73 geared posi.) And it was a 1968 Norwood build. Again, I hope it's a TWIN.
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KurtS
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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2008, 11:07:13 PM »

It's not a twin. It's the same car (well, same VIN).
The car reappeared on ebay a year ago with a partially restored shell. I thought it could be that someone had fixed the shell that you had.
Now it's a finished car and Jerry did appraise it. I told him I wasn't sure if the original shell was with the tags and a note about that appears in his report.
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Kurt S
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Classicgary
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2008, 01:04:33 AM »

well i wish him luck. i guess my name is one of the three registered owners ...... oh well, if the new owner needs any info i can give, again my phone number is xxxxxxx. I'll be watching speed channel to see how it does. It should be worth the sum of it's parts and labor. It does look very nice, 'cept it's missing the stripes above the wheel openings.

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tom
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« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2008, 05:34:30 AM »

This thread brings up a thought, have you considered posting a list of "deceased" vins? Could even include a notice of paperwork status when known?
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« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2008, 08:01:43 AM »

I cannot believe the car will sell for enough to cover the resoration and REBUILD costs. I will also be watching to see.
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« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2008, 01:49:50 PM »

If someone is dishonest enough to sell a fake Z, seemingly restored from the documentation alone, why would they pay to do anything else legal?
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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2008, 08:37:54 PM »

I think I just seen it sell for 125,000.00 Dollars
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« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2008, 09:32:57 PM »

They mentioned the double badges, RS and Z/28 on the grille, Thursday night. Now they showed a supposed pic of the day that car was brought home new, so is it possible a car was badged like that or Huh
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Classicgary
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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2008, 10:21:30 PM »

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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2008, 10:43:24 AM »

Question for ya....what did you do with the trim tags & hidden vin? Where they salvaged and used on this to make it a questionable re-body or where they buried with the car and what's on there now is fake also?

$125K is a lot to pay for a tribute/clone/recreation or whatever else you want to call this '69 Z.

Thanks for coming forward with this info. We need to keep the real cars real and expose this type of deception from our hobby.

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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2008, 01:13:02 PM »

Did you also notice they kept calling it one of the best documented Z28's ever? Kind of iroinc.....
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69 X11 Z21 L14 glide
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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2008, 04:53:46 PM »

The trim tag and vin number tag and paperwork is real.  I flagged the drive train as a restoration drive train in the report on the car.  I am not at liberty to post reports to the public or on a public forum.  This car was also judged at the Camaro Nationals this past summer in the "Bow Tie" class and scored a silver.  Car was nicely done but there were a lot of little things.  I can't believe that someone paid that much for the car with a resto drive train.  The X-ram and carbs were real though.   

Jerry   


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Classicgary
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« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2008, 05:32:07 PM »

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fordrocks
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« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2008, 05:49:00 PM »

wait,let me get this straight!you say the paperwork and vin is real.but it came from another body that has been long gone!this to me sounds illegal.how can this be certified by some self proclaimed guru?its not a restoration drivetrain.its a illegal transfer of vin!i didnt hear anything about this on tv!




The trim tag and vin number tag and paperwork is real.  I flagged the drive train as a restoration drive train in the report on the car.  I am not at liberty to post reports to the public or on a public forum.  This car was also judged at the Camaro Nationals this past summer in the "Bow Tie" class and scored a silver.  Car was nicely done but there were a lot of little things.  I can't believe that someone paid that much for the car with a resto drive train.  The X-ram and carbs were real though.   

Jerry   



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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2008, 06:02:12 PM »

Fordrocks,

If you're referring to me as some self proclaimed guru, I do have the state and national credentials to back up what I do.  If you don't beleive so, look me up at the Camaro Nationals where we can talk face to face.  I am there every year.

You have not seen the report so you don't know all of what was disclosed during the inspection. 

Jerry   
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fordrocks
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« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2008, 06:13:28 PM »

all i know is what the rest of the world knows.that the car is as real as it gets according to the bj show.did you specify that the car was a rebody in your report?but wait a minute.you cant say that since a re-body and the installation of another cars vin would be illegal.this would make you somewhat liable right?
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fordrocks
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« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2008, 06:37:58 PM »

question.

if i was a bidder at bj.was the report there disclosing the fact that the car was a re-body?
does the new owner and bj know the car is a re-body.if so they should have disclosed this is their description.see description below.i dont see re-body or restoration engine anywhere.do you?



 Complete restoration by Kent Waters Originals. Rally Green with black standard interior and NOS Cross-Ram. An early production with full documentation including three registered owner car history and is Jerry MacNeish certified.
Description Rally Green with black standard interior. Factory options include deluxe seatbelts, Rose Wood dash inserts, console with gauges, Rally Sport, headlight washers, Endura bumper, shoulder restraints, head restraints, 4.10 ratio rear with Muncie M-20 transmission, and front and rear spoilers. This Z/28 has a NOS Cross-Ram and has been completely restored by Kent Waters Originals and comes with over 1,000 detailed restoration photos. This car is a three registered owner car and comes with complete documentation that has been certified by a forensic document examiner. Documentation includes Window Sticker, pre-delivery check, car shipper paperwork, Protect-O-Plate, key envelope, key knock outs, original keys, owner's manual, original dated 1969 photos of car, dealer installed accessory sheet and much more. Car has been documented and certified by Jerry MacNeish. Car was restored with all GM sheet metal, bumpers and tons of NOS GM parts.
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« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2008, 06:41:58 PM »

How BJ and the owner wish to present it is up to them. But it could leave them liable in the event of an uphappy buyer.....
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Classicgary
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« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2008, 09:25:07 PM »

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« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2008, 09:38:34 PM »

All I can add to this form is what I personally know first hand after just coming home today from BJ and being there the entire week. I'll go a step furthar and say I had a car displayed right next to Kent Waters 69 Camaro Rally green Z/28-RS and talked to him and his wife several times over the course of the week. I even looked at the pictures in question myself being a Camaro nut I was interested to hear all about the car too, its history ect... and let him give me his sale job! Which he's very good at, he's very nice, personable and knows how to promote his product. I saw Ron Pratt come over to the expo and talk with Kent Waters about the car for 30-45min's durning the auction I believe it was Friday afternoon a day before the car ran acrossed the block. He looked the car over and paper work displayed on a cardboard sign board Kent had layed out in front of the camaro as well as a original intake,carb and air cleaner assy that Kent claimed was the original to the car but did say he opt'ed to install a NOS GM original cross ram set up that had never been out of the box until he put it on that car! Never once did I personally ever hear it said the car was a rebody nor did I ever hear that the drivetrain was what did you guys call it "restoration drivetrain?" another words it was being promoted as original in my mind, not a restamp or what else you want to call it..... He told me he did the car in 90 days from start to finish, had to put quarters, rear wheel wells and do extensive body work that the car was in very poor shape when he found it. As I sat in the audience during the auction right before his car went acrossed the block he had people in the audience handing out 8"X11" two sided full color information sheets about the car-I've never seen that done before and also BJ stopped the auction to let Kent Waters come up where the auctioneers stand and talk about the car himself where he claimed it was his "BEST WORK" to date...... There was more truth with that statement then we really knew...
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Classicgary
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« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2008, 10:01:18 PM »

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sd1968z28
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« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2008, 09:51:46 AM »

so what did you think was going to happen to those docs when you sold them.  it seems you started this mess i hope you got good money for your part in this sham.
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samanatoo
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« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2008, 10:01:25 AM »

After reading and reading new and new threads, which I knew was going to happen. I think you hit the nail right on the head with that statement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I bet they never told Jerry about the WHOLE truth.   
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Classicgary
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« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2008, 10:59:54 AM »

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tom
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« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2008, 11:51:09 AM »

Gary, Yes you are going to get flak for revealing what has been done, but it can not be undone. For whatever my opinion is worth, disclosing what has been done is the right thing to do. Everyone knows collector cars include need to be researched very carefully. This unfortunately has become a buyer beware industry, with fraud and deceit turning huge profits for those who without ethics.

CRG, thank you for all the information you share so freely. Please consider offering one more thing, a list of known deceased & questionable vins. In my opinion this would only improve the hobby.

Tom
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2008, 12:47:09 PM »

all i know is what the rest of the world knows.that the car is as real as it gets according to the bj show.

And Barrett Jackson is the know all - end all of Camaro's ? Um, no.
and I know it's a rebody, unless they followed me and "dug it up"(many years ago). B/J could only report what was told them by the seller. Hell, even the seller might not have known, I'm thinking he got it from someone else (as an unfinished project) anyway. This VIN is no secret. I was here years ago talking about this car. And with only a little checking anybody could have learned the numbers were "questionable". So, my opinion, (of course those are like belly buttons), (everyone has one), the buyer was not told everything, the auctionier, didn't know everything, the seller MIGHT not have known everthing. (But, if he (the restorer) really is as good as he is supposed to be at restoring cars, I think he should have seen the replaced/missing numbers and maybe got curious and did some checking). As far as Jerry's role (I don't think he needs me to defend him, but), he was probably told only as much as needed, by someone that didn't know everything anyway.
I don't remember the name of the guy I sold the numbers too, but I do remember he had a ralley green ralley sport camaro.
(edit) I should say, he TOLD me he had a ralley green RS camaro.

The MOST likely possibility is that the buyer of your documentation/id/vin/etc... MERGED your information with HIS RS Camaro, and it is now the car that was sold.   The *only feasible* means of doing this is to transfer the VIN plate, hidden VIN's etc to the other body, and do it in a 'mostly invisible' way.     I'm curious...  WHAT did you think someone was going to do with the VIN/documentation you sold??   hang it on a wall as a decoration?Huh
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
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« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2008, 01:13:32 PM »

To follow all this up, and in your defense.  I helped a friend remove a '57 BelAir Convertible from the woods once.   It had leaves, soil, tree parts, etc.. up to the beltline.  The floor was totally gone.   The frame was rotted away except for the (thicker metal) X member.   The roof bows were there, as well as the stainless around the windshield...   My friend got the car for free to haul it away.    He sold the thing (as is) for $2k...  a few weeks later, that buyer sold the car for 15K...  I'm sure NOW the car is a *restored 100K+ '57 Convertible (black with red interior).   I am certain that at least half of the 'Restored '57 Chevy convertibles came from similar backgrounds.   The standard method of *restoring* such a car is to find a decent 2-dr HT car, and *convert* it to a convertible using the special convertible parts.    Lots of them are also done using 4-dr sedans which are cheaper and usually in better condition....   Is this wrong?   I don't know.   but I do know it is WRONG to misrepresent something you are selling for greater financial gain.   It would seem that is what the owner/restorer did in this case...  I doubt after the hulabaloo which will result, that BJ will *rerun* this particular part of that auction!
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Classicgary
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« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2008, 03:03:47 PM »

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L78 steve
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« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2008, 03:17:34 PM »

Too late,The only legal way would have been to include the body with the paper and tags .The outcome would have most likely been the same but someone else would be responsible for this mess .
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Classicgary
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« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2008, 03:33:09 PM »

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cjm465
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« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2008, 03:48:39 PM »



i was mistaken, this needs to go away..................
how do i edit my posts ?

try..."No hablo ingles'" when the phone rings
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« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2008, 04:09:05 PM »

Edit your posts ?  Was it your car or not ? You were mistaken ? You made a very serious charge by stating you buried the orig body. Did you or didn't you ? If you were mistaken and trashed trashed the Barrett-Jackson car by accident you should explain it so the trashing can stop.
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« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2008, 04:11:18 PM »

Classicgary's entire story, from the original post on, is a fabrication.  
.
This is a real car.  
.
Barrett-Jackson, Speed Channel and both the seller/restorer and buyer of the car at auction are all aware of this little charade, so please don't perpetuate it or give Classicgary's story any credibility.  Perhaps he'll choose to explain, maybe not.
.
He did once own the car in question.  That's about all that's true.  
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Gramps69Z
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« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2008, 05:30:07 PM »

What about the paper work, POP, keys, hidden VIN's and all the outer stuff that now belongs to TWO cars.
 If it's all legit, why worry?
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Captain John Wykoff
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« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2008, 06:13:31 PM »

If you were mistaken and this is all a joke, then I hope you were smart enough to not list your real phone number in a earlier post!  I knew this was going to get good or should I say BAD.
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« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2008, 06:26:53 PM »

What about the paper work, POP, keys, hidden VIN's and all the outer stuff that now belongs to TWO cars.
 If it's all legit, why worry?

Because it's all a fiction, and the reputations of hard-working, honest people are at stake.
.
Kent Waters Originals restored and sold this original Z/28 with a very rare combination of features, and it is extensively documented.  Waters, Speed TV, Barrett-Jackson, the buyer AND Classicgary all agree that this is the original, real car.
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« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2008, 06:42:00 PM »

It sounds like somebody was threatened with a lawsuit here....or worse. I can't imagine why anyone would make up a story like this. I suppose if the new owner is following this thread, it might make sense for him to pull the cowl panel and look for evidence of a piece being welded in by the hidden VIN.
There's two sides to every story, but that would put an end to this thread.
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« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2008, 06:50:59 PM »

..Maybe he's just MAD ...HE didnt get the $ 100, GRAND + for the car.....Huh
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« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2008, 07:36:02 PM »

Now Classicgary is a guest.    I hope the senior members chime in on this one. 
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Captain John Wykoff
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« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2008, 07:49:58 PM »

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« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2008, 07:57:02 PM »

Please note that the above post is NOT mine.  Someone is spoofing my log in.
200mph IS NOT 200.mph
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666 the legend
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« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2008, 07:59:56 PM »

...Uh OH....." SPA-GHETTI-O's....!!!
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« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2008, 08:03:28 PM »

Please note that the above post is NOT mine.  Someone is spoofing my log in.
200mph IS NOT 200.mph

I suspected as much, and was just about to ask one of the mods about it.
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« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2008, 02:06:09 PM »

Per Gary's request, I've edited his posts.
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« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2008, 02:42:56 PM »

I would still like to know if he buried a body or not.
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« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2008, 03:25:47 PM »

I would still like to know if he buried a body or not.

I'm with you on that one. Did he dig up the body and reattach all the tags?
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« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2008, 03:30:18 PM »

please read my other post.
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« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2008, 03:46:32 PM »

...anybody have any popcorn?
 
   ...Wow, ...this is crazy... Shocked
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« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2008, 04:49:18 PM »

wow, i came on this board to ask if the rs badge on the grill was correct as they made a bid deal of it during the auction. still very curious about that.
but to find this thread, without having popcorn in hand, was a shame. what a soap opera on such a cool car.

so was that rs badge on the grill correct? with the z/28 too?
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« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2008, 04:58:53 PM »

Now Classicgary is a guest.    I hope the senior members chime in on this one. 
Following from another forum.  The reason his account was reset I assume they deleted all and EVERY post relating to this car.  The history of his posts cant be found so any and all writing of this tag can no longer be verified from his original post "knows it's NOT the original body shell" "CRG knows of the paper work on my old car"

Oh well guess everyone has decided to let it die.  Good luck to all parties involved.
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« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2008, 07:14:44 PM »

No the RS badge is not correct in the grille of a Z28.  Never would have left the factory that way, GM paid inspectors for stuff like that.
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« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2008, 08:24:36 PM »

The trim tag and vin number tag and paperwork is real.  I flagged the drive train as a restoration drive train in the report on the car.  I am not at liberty to post reports to the public or on a public forum.  This car was also judged at the Camaro Nationals this past summer in the "Bow Tie" class and scored a silver.  Car was nicely done but there were a lot of little things.  I can't believe that someone paid that much for the car with a resto drive train.  The X-ram and carbs were real though.   

Jerry   




It sounds like you missed the fact the car is a re-body!

oops.

you shoulkd chime in here soon.your absence looks fishy.
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« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2008, 09:08:24 PM »

The trim tag and vin number tag and paperwork is real.  I flagged the drive train as a restoration drive train in the report on the car.  I am not at liberty to post reports to the public or on a public forum.  This car was also judged at the Camaro Nationals this past summer in the "Bow Tie" class and scored a silver.  Car was nicely done but there were a lot of little things.  I can't believe that someone paid that much for the car with a resto drive train.  The X-ram and carbs were real though.  

Jerry  




It sounds like you missed the fact the car is a re-body!

oops.

you shoulkd chime in here soon.your absence looks fishy.

Get a life idiot. Take it somewhere else.
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« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2008, 09:43:35 PM »

Gary, there's no reason to be ugly here.  The man just asked a question.  The bottom line on this is it's a federal offense and someone or one's in trouble.   There's a lot more talk on Team Camaro and the Yenko site, and it's not edited.
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« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2008, 10:33:46 PM »

The only thing that seems fishy here is the rash of opioniated newbies
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« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2008, 12:17:51 AM »

Some of you act like it is a simple thing to spot a rebody. Jerry does a inspection. He can't be pulling heater boxes etc looking t see if hidden vins have been tampered with unless he is hired to. I don't know how Jerry's certs are written but the COPO Connection certs certified the vin, not the body. There will always be re-bodys that get by just because they are too easy to hide. It is tte history like on this car that sniffs them out.
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« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2008, 08:41:30 AM »

Then certs. are worthless !
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« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2008, 08:46:20 AM »

when jerry certified my car he looked at all the numbers stamped on the shell.  there are lots of other numbers stamped all over the body.  i am sure if these were missing he would have noticed it?  this is all a little smelly in my book!
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« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2008, 09:36:27 AM »

Man, would I love to strip and dip this car!
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It's impossible to have a valid certificate of authenticity without verifying that it is not a rebody.
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« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2008, 10:17:15 AM »

Sorry Fireman. Have to disagree. He asked no questions at all. Everything was his opinion. He has no established integrity here to call anyone on the carpet. He actually quoted JM. JM hit the nail on the head. Resto drivetarin does not equal $100K. Either the seller hid the certification or the buyer ignored it. Who is to blame?

How can someone verfy 100% if a cowl VIN was welded in without destructive testing. Anyone willing to do that on a whim? If the experts here tell me the TT looks good and the rivets look good how far am I willing to go. Remember nothing made a Z/28 except parts bolted on. A body is a body. Personally for $100K I would dig a little deeper.
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« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2008, 11:01:31 AM »

I think Charley (and GaryL) summed it up pretty well.
With a completely assembed car, it's hard to verify the body is original. If it's done right, it can be hard to tell on a primed shell, no less a completed car.

Jerry has been traveling. I'm not sure what else he would add anyway. He told you what he found. Anything more detailed would be in the report, which is between him and the person who had the appraisal done.

I edited per Gary's request. He was able to edit his own posts on TC.

The only thing that seems fishy here is the rash of opioniated newbies
So noted.....
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« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2008, 11:03:46 AM »

It's real easy now to say I would dig deeper, but if you were the buyer and you had not heard anything questionable about the car, why would you feel the need to dig deeper?  A certification can't prove if the hidden VIN section of metal was replaced because he can't scrape the paint off to inspect the area for welding.  A certification is to prove that all the documents, drivetrain, tags and parts add up to what the car is claimed to be.  It's not about the body itself unless the seller is willing to have the car taken apart and paint stripped off to inspect the hidden VIN area.  
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« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2008, 01:18:46 PM »

Maybe we can take away an important lesson from all this.

Have the car checked before it is restored and/or take a lot of pictures during resto.
Take pictures of stripped vin area, tag area, all dates anywhere you can find them during resto.

Same with engine block. In a restored car a deck stamp can look pretty good but with the head off it can show an obvious decked block.

If you have a original stamped un-decked block, be sure to take pictues of the uncut deck with head off.

Take pictures of the sheet metal dates, crankshaft date code, rear end gears, etc. anything and everything you can find. It can't hurt.
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« Reply #71 on: October 24, 2008, 01:47:02 PM »

No, it can't hurt. However a picture of the hidden VIN (for example) could be taken of the original car, and included with the documentation for the car. Chances of somebody pulling the heater box to verify it prior to purchase are slim. There is nothing that can not be faked. That includes paperwork, stampings, hidden VIN's etc. A paper trail, good documentation, inspection by an expert will all reduce the chances of fraud. It can still happen.

I am very thankful for the expertise, and resources on this site. I am also feeling better and better about only having a plain old 307 glide. Nobody is going out of their way to fake those. At least not yet.
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« Reply #72 on: October 24, 2008, 03:05:59 PM »

.Where exactly is the VIN by the heater box..?? Inside the firewall or outside..Huh Pics..??
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« Reply #73 on: October 24, 2008, 03:34:56 PM »

.Where exactly is the VIN by the heater box..?? Inside the firewall or outside..Huh Pics..??

Outside.  Read this...  http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#PartialVIN

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« Reply #74 on: October 24, 2008, 04:03:20 PM »

....Thankyou....
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« Reply #75 on: October 24, 2008, 08:50:31 PM »

Maybe we can take away an important lesson from all this.

Have the car checked before it is restored and/or take a lot of pictures during resto.
Take pictures of stripped vin area, tag area, all dates anywhere you can find them during resto.

Same with engine block. In a restored car a deck stamp can look pretty good but with the head off it can show an obvious decked block.

If you have a original stamped un-decked block, be sure to take pictues of the uncut deck with head off.

Take pictures of the sheet metal dates, crankshaft date code, rear end gears, etc. anything and everything you can find. It can't hurt.

Good lessons yes. I say if I was laying down the big bucks I want a guarantee, period. If not I don't buy it. How soon after buyers quit bidding will BJ require a guarantee from the seller?
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« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2008, 08:20:19 AM »

Mabey we can take more than a lesson from this.  This high profile car is now in the spotlight for all to see.  The more I hear of what GAry and others have done, the less sympathy I have.  They know full well how loose tags and paperwork is going to be used.  The apparentness of what happened here seems to be backed up by many facts including the possible felonies being committed.  A court of law will have to decide this, and if that happens, this case and this car could be the start of stopping this trend of the auto faking and fraud.  Many opinions are being expressed here, but J.M. is not at fault here in any way.  He is in fact a victim the same as the buyer.  Everytime we see an example of this we are angered, but this time an opportunity has presented itself that may serve as a good example to fraud artists to reconsider their efforts.  I say, lets not let this die.  Just my opinion.
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« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2008, 08:39:53 AM »

I'm not casting aspersions here, but If one removes the trim and VIN tags then trashs a body, only to sell the tags later will a passel of original documetation, why would one be suprised that it showed up on another car? What did you think was going to happen, the purchaser was going to take tags home and wax them, maybe make a key chain out of them?  If I was the seller of the tags I don't think I'd do anything to draw attention to it, like post it on the internet.
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« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2008, 12:02:46 PM »

I am sure the buyer did not scour ebay looking for a TT sale and rebody. The seller lied, period.
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« Reply #79 on: October 25, 2008, 06:04:16 PM »

"Truth is so obscure in these times, and falsehood so established, that, unless we love the truth, we cannot know it."
-- Blaise Pascal, 1660
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« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2008, 09:54:19 PM »


Here is some info that comes from a very reliable source.
The car did have a law enforcement vin#verifaction of all vin#s when it arrived at the resto shop before any work was done.
All previous owners were contacted prior to restoration including garys ex-wife.
Certification was done by Jerry without frontend on car and nothing was flagged.
There are over 1000 photos of the restoration.
There is a criminal investigation on-going requested by all parties involved.
There is registration that all parties have that proves the car was registered 2 -3 years after gary allegedly buried it.
clue, Pretty green car=money,greed,envy,jail
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« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2008, 10:55:12 PM »

There was two years between the tags/paper were sold alone on ebay and when it showed up again with a shell.

Out of the 1000 pics, are there any showing the backside of the hiddens to verify that they were NOT grafted in?
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« Reply #82 on: October 25, 2008, 11:13:06 PM »

There was two years between the tags/paper were sold alone on ebay and when it showed up again with a shell.

Out of the 1000 pics, are there any showing the backside of the hiddens to verify that they were NOT grafted in?

Unfortunately the truth is that if the person who did the graft took the time to sand and polish the metal then blast front and back you would be damn hard pressed to tell... the best bet is to look at the date codes on the inner structures of the unibody and compare them to known cars built in the same period.
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« Reply #83 on: October 25, 2008, 11:22:29 PM »


.........There is a criminal investigation on-going requested by all parties involved.
There is registration that all parties have that proves the car was registered 2 -3 years after gary allegedly buried it.
clue, Pretty green car=money,greed,envy,jail


No wonder gary retracted.
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« Reply #84 on: October 25, 2008, 11:26:17 PM »

Unfortunately the truth is that if the person who did the graft took the time to sand and polish the metal then blast front and back you would be damn hard pressed to tell... the best bet is to look at the date codes on the inner structures of the unibody and compare them to known cars built in the same period.

True, James.  There would have to be extensive care to make them undetectable.  Could be done.  But what still doesnt change is the fact that the tags, one hidden that was cut out, and paper for this VIN were sold 5 years ago.  Plus the heater hidden that was not cut out, and supposedly died with the "buried" shell.

Maybe it was a one in a who-knows-what chance that the "buried" shell was reunited with the detached VINs.  Maybe the "buried" shell was salvaged.  Maybe, but the odds are against it.
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« Reply #85 on: October 26, 2008, 07:19:04 AM »


Here is some info that comes from a very reliable source.
The car did have a law enforcement vin#verifaction of all vin#s when it arrived at the resto shop before any work was done.
All previous owners were contacted prior to restoration including garys ex-wife.
Certification was done by Jerry without frontend on car and nothing was flagged.
There are over 1000 photos of the restoration.
There is a criminal investigation on-going requested by all parties involved.
There is registration that all parties have that proves the car was registered 2 -3 years after gary allegedly buried it.
clue, Pretty green car=money,greed,envy,jail



Yeah, real interesting esecially since "Rockstar" has no contact info and has a blocked email address. 

The fact that a car is "registered 2-3 years after Gary allegedly buired it" means nothing. That's just DMV paperwork. I know here in NJ you can sell a car and if you dont physically turn in the plates and cancel the registration, you will still get renewals every year...pay them and the car is still registered. Better yet, the QQ tags for classic cars are good forever with  no renewals.
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« Reply #86 on: October 26, 2008, 07:53:38 AM »

The IP address for Rockstar is from tha Atlanta GA area.  Do we know anyone associated with this subject from that area?

OrgName:    BellSouth.net Inc.
OrgID:      BELL
Address:    575 Morosgo Drive
City:       Atlanta
StateProv:  GA
PostalCode: 30324
Country:    US

ReferralServer: rwhois://rwhois.eng.bellsouth.net:4321

The only way to get a title for the car would have been to go thru the registration process.  Anyone know what PA requires for documentation to register a car, although it may be a mute point becasue I assume whoever got the tags and paperwork from Gary got the title as well.  We all know (according to the story and info recorded by various people) that Gary sold (planned to sell?) the tags in April of 2004 and a car with his VIN was sold as a shell in October 2007 on Ebay, so what exactly was registered.
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« Reply #87 on: October 26, 2008, 11:34:40 AM »

If the shell that Gary buried is still where he buried it and it has the hidden VIN by the heater opening, then it's an easy case.  But if Gary can't locate the shell he buried, then things will get real cloudy, especially when $$$ is involved.  I think we would all like to know if the car sold at auction was truly re-bodied regardless of the $$$.  Lots of clues point to yes, but I'm not convinced until Gary can produce the shell he buried.
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« Reply #88 on: October 26, 2008, 11:39:26 AM »

Have we all seen a picture of a section of the top of a cowl area containing a VIN?  Obviously a VIN stamp has been cut out of some car.  Can anyone read that VIN, and is it the same as the VIN and paper work associated with this car?

I don't beleive buried is a literal term, I think the body went to a bone yard.
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« Reply #89 on: October 26, 2008, 05:45:33 PM »

..Who the HELL buries a car..?? Seems like alot of work for JUNK..?? I just dont see someone burying a car......when yah can scrap it REAL EASY...!!
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« Reply #90 on: October 26, 2008, 06:02:59 PM »

Around here they used to push them into a ditch or hole and cover them up...

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« Reply #91 on: October 26, 2008, 06:07:32 PM »

....Why do that when yah can get a lil $$$$ at a scrap yard..??
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« Reply #92 on: October 26, 2008, 07:55:48 PM »

The only thing that seems fishy here is the rash of opioniated newbies

Well Tom, you've got to admit this car has certainly put the spotlight on a couple of internet sites ( and that's good for business).  I will refrain from comment and just say HI ! and I like the posts and info. Thanks.

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« Reply #93 on: October 26, 2008, 10:23:47 PM »

I guess the only truly way to know what you have is to be the original owner or part of a family of the original owner, etc..  If you buy BJ or Ebay, you leave yourself open to fraud and you are on your own (buyer beware).  Now if you get a fix-r-upper that is truly rusted out with docs and the numbers match you might have better luck. 

The days of johnny went to Vietnam and didn't come back and by the way his car is in barn are long over......

just my .02

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« Reply #94 on: October 26, 2008, 10:45:41 PM »

I still think the nice cars trade privately. High profile on BJ = stupid.
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« Reply #95 on: October 27, 2008, 07:42:01 AM »

I've been in contact with the original owner of my JL8 car.  He gave me information you could never find out anywhere else.
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« Reply #96 on: October 27, 2008, 07:47:05 AM »

As far as the car later being checked out by law enforcement does not mean much.  I have done quite a few of these VIN checks as a police officer.  All it amounts to is running the VIN to make sure it has not been reported stolen and verifying that the VIN is on the car.  The stolen vehicle database is not connected to the DMV database, so if for some reason, the car was listed as crushed by DMV, and I run a search on the stolen hit list, nothing will come up.  Also, all a police officer is going to do is match the title to the VIN on the dash and that is it.  Maybe check for some tampering, but we all know that the VINS on our first gen Camaros are easy as pie to remove and replace.  There is no crawling under the car or looking for the other hidden VIN stamps.  Hell, how many police officers would even know where to look.  Heck, outside of first gen Camaros, I have absolutely no idea where to look on any other car for any hidden VIN.  There is no book that has these hidden VINS listed somewhere that only police have access to.  To be honest, there may be some criminal activity here, but I would be willing to bet that no state attorney would ever take this case as there is really no stolen vehicle and no victim of car theft so to speak.  (I may be wrong but I would bet good money I'm not).  If there is a criminal investigation, I bet that it is cursory at best and in the end, the party making the complaint will be told that this is a civil matter and not criminal.  As I said, as a police officer, I used to work many auto theft cases and they are some of the most difficult cases to prove, and that is with way more evidence than is available in this situation.  If whoever buys or bought this car and paid way too much for a car that was mis-represented, than they can get the lawyers involved and place a $ figure on the harm caused and a judgment is entered, case closed.  No one is going to jail.  Buyer beware does apply, and as shown here, even the best of us can be fooled.      
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« Reply #97 on: October 27, 2008, 12:03:26 PM »

I spoke with the original owner of my Hugger Orange 69Z a few  times before I bought  my car and several times after.  Best acurrate info you can get as long as they are  still with us in the flesh.  I still can not believe that he started this thread without considering the outcomes "stupid is as stupid does" , Forest Gump!
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« Reply #98 on: October 27, 2008, 09:25:53 PM »

This has been a very disturbing thread to follow.  Obviously there are major questions raised on the vin tag, etc. and that the car could be a rebody which was not disclosed.  However, I have just as much or more problem with the Barrett Jackson description that the owner provided.  Most Buyers place great reliance on what ius stated on this deescription.  In it the seller states twice that the car was certified and documented by Jerry McNeish.  (See below)  Reading previous post though it is my understanding Jerry certifed that the car did not have the original drivetrain.   Therefore, other than this what then was certified by Jerry that is positive?  However, would one not assume from this description Jerry's reputation that the car had the original drivetrain and was a very correct car?  It reminds me of Bill Clinton's "It depends upon the meaning of is...."  Kind of sleezy in my mind. 


Complete restoration by Kent Waters Originals. Rally Green with black standard interior and NOS Cross-Ram. An early production with full documentation including three registered owner car history and is Jerry MacNeish certified.
Description Rally Green with black standard interior. Factory options include deluxe seatbelts, Rose Wood dash inserts, console with gauges, Rally Sport, headlight washers, Endura bumper, shoulder restraints, head restraints, 4.10 ratio rear with Muncie M-20 transmission, and front and rear spoilers. This Z/28 has a NOS Cross-Ram and has been completely restored by Kent Waters Originals and comes with over 1,000 detailed restoration photos. This car is a three registered owner car and comes with complete documentation that has been certified by a forensic document examiner. Documentation includes Window Sticker, pre-delivery check, car shipper paperwork, Protect-O-Plate, key envelope, key knock outs, original keys, owner's manual, original dated 1969 photos of car, dealer installed accessory sheet and much more. Car has been documented and certified by Jerry MacNeish. Car was restored with all GM sheet metal, bumpers and tons of NOS GM parts.
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« Reply #99 on: October 28, 2008, 01:36:25 PM »

Please go back and review the original poster's story (since recanted) and his supporting "documentation".  All of the fraud here lies within.  His "documents" are copies, and his "cowl VIN" was cut from one of the 14 other Camaros he has owned.  Perhaps he can explain why.

There is no evidence that this car had its cowl VIN altered, removed or replaced.  I have seen bare-metal photos of the cowl area, and reviewed many of the more than 1000 photos of its restoration.  In Hall County, Ga., certifying VIN numbers is a very serious business, and this car was certified with correct, matching VINs in ALL 5 locations, (tag, cowl, heater, engine, trans) PRIOR to its restoration. 

I have read Jerry MacNeish's report on this car.  It is exhaustive, and extremely well detailed.  Kent Waters had him certify this car prior to final assembly so issues that Jerry raised could be corrected as the car went together.  Jerry's report says "This Camaro and trim tag are certified as real and authentic".  And Jerry points out "Excellent original documentation file with this Z28 Camaro."

Jerry's report does not flag the engine or drivetrain as reproduction or restamped.  Jerry evaluated two other cars for Mr. Waters on the same day as this one.  One of those cars did have an incorrect drivetrain, and that car has since been built as a resto-mod.  It was not this car.

Classic Gary's story is a sad one.  Sadder still, is that after all these years, he is so upset about losing this car that he has created (and many of you have fueled) an unfair firestorm under Kent Waters, Jerry MacNeish, Hall County, Barrett-Jackson, and even Ron Pratt.

All auto hobbyists and collectors oppose fraud, and are rightly outraged when it occurs.  But this is a real car, painstakingly documented and carefully restored, with many steps taken along the way to rebut any questions of its authenticity..
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« Reply #100 on: October 28, 2008, 02:11:53 PM »

say what?
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« Reply #101 on: October 28, 2008, 02:36:56 PM »

200mph, you need to go back and read the report again. Jerry himself stated in his post above:

Quote
I flagged the drive train as a restoration drive train in the report on the car.

If I were going to believe anyone on this forum, it would be Jerry.

And by the way, just because Jerry wrote:

Quote
The trim tag and vin number tag and paperwork is real.

dsoesn't mean it started life on THAT particluar car.

I find it amazing that people choose to publish bits and pieces of data to justify their end result. We already know Jerry can't post the informaton because of contractural agreements, but the buyer and/or seller certainly could. IF they wanted to that is...

Ed
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« Reply #102 on: October 28, 2008, 05:18:02 PM »

Ed, Please reread my post. 
I do not see any such flag in the report or certification for THIS car.  Jerry reviewed three cars at that location that day.  That may account for the confusion.
Mike
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« Reply #103 on: October 28, 2008, 05:25:46 PM »

Well Mike, this could all be cleared up very quickly if you would just answer the one question asked over on Team Camaro by Chris "NOT4NJUNK":

Quote
Are these the tags from that car or not?

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but this sure has gone on long enough! A simple yes or no would put this thread, the one on Team Camaro and the one on The Supercar Registry to rest!

Ed


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« Reply #104 on: October 28, 2008, 05:36:08 PM »

 

It doesn't look fake to me.
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« Reply #105 on: October 28, 2008, 11:02:19 PM »


I am just back from a drag race this weekend and trying to get caught up. 

I will make a short reply here and everyone can decide for themselves.  When K. Waters hired me to inspect his car, he was mainly interested in having me judge the car and flag anything that was not correct on the car.  His plans were to bring this car to the Camaro Nationals in June and have it judged in the Legends class if there was room, or the Bow Tie class.  I evaluated the car, quality of the restoration and paperwork and wrote a three page report.  I was never told by anyone that the car was rebodied.  K. Waters told me that this car was rough and much of the sheet metal had to be replaced. 

I cannot post my reports on a public forum as they are not for the world to see.  Any work that I do for a client is between me and the client.  As a licensed appraiser this is all part of an ethics cause in which I must abide.  Any issues regarding this car and anyone who sold paperwork and or vin tags without a car is between the sellers and buyers........not me.  On a fully restored car, it is near impossible to tell if a vin has been restamped in the cowl area.  With fresh new paint, you can't ask a client to remove this paint so stampings and sheet metal can be inspected............and if welded in by a professional, it is very hard to tell from the underside too!  With the new base coat clear coat paint systems, it's very difficult to verify #'s stamped here when a car is painted.  All I can do is evaluate the car and all components that are on the car.  I can evaluate the stampings, vin tag, paperwork and trim tag. 

I have been involved as an expert witness with several court cases where high end Yenko Camaros and Z28s have had the upper cowl vin restamped or replaced.  As we know, this is not good for the hobby.  There are people in the sheet metal and body shop business who can switch out a cowl vin and you'd never know anything was done.  That's scary but a fact of life.  This is why owner and car history should be an important part of your research when buying a 1st Gen Camaro.  Don't buy and ask questions later.  As a licensed appraiser, author, Camaro expert and national judge, I always try to provide the most accurate inspection service available to the Camaro hobbyist.       

Jerry         

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« Reply #106 on: October 29, 2008, 07:56:08 AM »

Well said Jerry ,this should put the matter to rest on this site .
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« Reply #107 on: October 29, 2008, 10:15:31 AM »

Not sure if this really puts the matter to rest.

Jerry has stated no one told him it was a rebody and the way his posts do read implies that it is indeed a rebody without the original drive train.  A few post earlier 200MPH aka Mike Joy states infactidly that the car is the real deal, not a rebody,  with the original drive train and all "born with  the car" trim tags, vin and hidden vins.  Furthermore he goes on to say that he has seen Jerry's report and there is no note in that report of the car not having an original drivetrain and that Jerry is confused with the other two cars he looked at the restorer's shop.

I can see Jerry coming forward to protect his name and to set the record straight while still protecting the integrity of being a licensed appraiser by not fully releasing the report. However I am confused and do not understand why Mike Joy is posting claims the car is real and, in essence, telling Jerry he is mistaken and has the cars confused. Does Mike Joy have a dog in this hunt?  He seems to be the only one that believes the car is 100% wiith all the original born with items mentioned real despite overwhelming evidence that surely does indicate otherwise. There have been a lot of well known Camaro people weighing in on this not only on this site but SYC and Team Camaro as well that dispute the claims that 200MPH is making. I know he is tied into Speed who is tied into BJ and obviously this is not good PR for BJ, especially considering what has happened in the past couple of auctions where you had a Judge chain his car, serious questions as to schill bidding or deceptive bidding practices as well as a well known writer being tossed from the event by security.  Don't know about you, but I'm waiting to see what happens in Scottsdale in less than 90 days.



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« Reply #108 on: October 29, 2008, 10:29:56 AM »

As a regular reader of the posts on this site, I have learned enough about auctions and BJ to know that you can't believe everything they claim. Buyer beware applies everywhere.

Just more support for this site and how valuable it is.

Jimmy V.
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« Reply #109 on: October 29, 2008, 11:33:45 AM »

Even owner history and testimony is not perfect.
A past owner who changed something - will never admit he was the one who did it.

Just follow the tags - who bought the paperwork on ebay?
Then - who sold the stuff on a body - and who purchased it?

If done by an expert - the appraiser could never tell - and the auction house would never know.
And if the restorer got it already like that - he may not be able to tell either.

The only one who would know for sure is the person doing the "change"work, or the person ordering it done.
When you document a restoration, you don't take pictures of the engine re-stamp process - you take them after it is done.

Does anyone have a record of the ebay body sale? - are the hidden Vin's shown?

There is a gray area there... the time in between the tag sale, and the body sale with the tags installed.
After that - everyone might be innocent.   unless it needed additional work to correct the changes.

Just my opinion - I could be wrong.
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« Reply #110 on: October 29, 2008, 12:08:53 PM »


Just follow the tags - who bought the paperwork on ebay?
Then - who sold the stuff on a body - and who purchased it?

I do recall the car in question, body per se, that was discussed on the Camaro web forum some two years ago or so

showed two "Z28" rolling shells in a rural looking shop, one was cut in green and the other I can't recall the color of

it was a body shop that was selling them, maybe some searches will unearth the ebay item number, but it would be unlikely you would be able to pull up the sale ... possible, but not likely
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« Reply #111 on: October 29, 2008, 09:57:35 PM »




I will make a short reply here and everyone can decide for themselves.  When K. Waters hired me to inspect his car, he was mainly interested in having me judge the car and flag anything that was not correct on the car.  His plans were to bring this car to the Camaro Nationals in June and have it judged in the Legends class if there was room, or the Bow Tie class.  I evaluated the car, quality of the restoration and paperwork and wrote a three page report.  I was never told by anyone that the car was rebodied.  K. Waters told me that this car was rough and much of the sheet metal had to be replaced.      

Jerry         



   This pretty much helps me make up my own mind as I feel it should do for others...
   Is it just me or do others also feel that this is a situation where Jerry's name has been used or abused to give this car legitimacy and profile in it's subsequent sale by the owner(s) and action house all of who stand to gain greatly by it? On face value, I feel once anyone sees his name attached to a vehicle it is automatically assumed that Jerry has certified it by making a distinctive and in depth inspection to determine that is truly what it is promoted to be - often without fully reading or knowing the detail in the actual report itself.
   What is appears to have been done is that they asked for an inspection to verify that the car in question was capable of attaining a certain degree of correctness in a judged sense without completely following through and asking for complete certification of it as a true numbers matching, original vehicle as was apparently stated in the seller's and BJ promotion of it prior to and during the auction itself.
   This sort of splitting hairs I agree, but for the BJ and the seller to be able to attach Jerry's name to the advertising documentation immediately and wrongfully (in thsi case) puts forth to buyers the illusion the car has been attested to by Mr. MacNeish as being what they are stating it is, instead of just a car he deems worthy of attaining a certain degree of show correctness - no minor feat mind you - but a big difference none the less in my eyes.
   Buyers and people in general who might be interested in such a vehicle will sometimes only hear what they want to hear and in this case I consider that by attaching Jerry's name to the sales hype it was automatically assumed to be a more 'definitive' (pardon me) determination of the cars real value and legitimacy than it really deserved. 
   I'm sure it helped the sale greatly, but I feel that possibly the distinction between the wording 'inspection' 'judge' and 'certification' may be getting lost in all of this... - Randy   
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« Reply #112 on: October 29, 2008, 10:04:50 PM »

[
   I'm sure it helped the sale greatly, but I feel that possibly the distinction between the wording 'inspection' 'judge' and 'certification' may be getting lost in all of this... - Randy   
[/quote]

   I meant to add Jerry's word 'evaluated' to go along with 'inspection' 'judge' verses the word 'certification'...  - Randy

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« Reply #113 on: October 29, 2008, 10:12:21 PM »

What about here?
Kurt S has poosted that he had direct conversations with Gary when they tags and docs were separated from the car and listed for sale.

Kurt also posted that the sale of the body with this vin was discussed here.

In case it's not anywhere else, we're talking about vin 124379N509335 body # NOR102583 dated 09C

As for Jerry, he's telling us what he can. This I evaluated the car, quality of the restoration and paperwork and wrote a three page report.  I was never told by anyone that the car was rebodied.  K. Waters told me that this car was rough and much of the sheet metal had to be replaced.  
tells much of the story. The "quality of the restoration" certainly implies the car was complete and together when inspected, contrary to Mike Joy's statement.
"I was never told that the car was rebodied" could be read a couple different ways....
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« Reply #114 on: October 29, 2008, 10:20:57 PM »

so if im reading this correctly,
jerry wrote a 3 page report.
he did not notice or decide if the car is/was a rebody.
we all know that the car was a re-body.

so now we all want to know whats happening in the littigation.

jerry,is there a littigation or investigation? just answer that one question since we already know many other answers.






I will make a short reply here and everyone can decide for themselves.  When K. Waters hired me to inspect his car, he was mainly interested in having me judge the car and flag anything that was not correct on the car.I evaluated the car, quality of the restoration and paperwork and wrote a three page report.  I was never told by anyone that the car was rebodied.  K. Waters told me that this car was rough and much of the sheet metal had to be replaced. 

Any issues regarding this car and anyone who sold paperwork and or vin tags without a car is between the sellers and buyers........not me.  On a fully restored car, it is near impossible to tell if a vin has been restamped in the cowl area.  With fresh new paint, you can't ask a client to remove this paint so stampings and sheet metal can be inspected............and if welded in by a professional, it is very hard to tell from the underside too!  With the new base coat clear coat paint systems, it's very difficult to verify #'s stamped here when a car is painted.  All I can do is evaluate the car and all components that are on the car.  I can evaluate the stampings, vin tag, paperwork and trim tag. 


Jerry    


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« Reply #115 on: October 29, 2008, 10:30:07 PM »

I see this as one big giant MESS, Jerry's name was used in vague (seller did not disclose the whole report just used his name) all to pump up the product to be sold at BJ.  It is a shame and I do not see this going away soon.  Any buyer of a car like this should have someone look it over even if it is certed by Jerry and to read the whole report or was the full report even disclosed?Huh  If someone is willing to shell out 120+ Grand for this car than maybe they either really did not care about the money or they were mistaken. I would like to see the buyer of this car come out and have something to say. Not friends or someone who knows the car or someone else.  Jerry was straight up with me with what he saw with my car and what he wrote in the report. That is what he is paid to do,  not to dismantle or strip paint on a car esp. one that just recieved a very high end resto.    
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« Reply #116 on: October 29, 2008, 10:37:32 PM »

I am sure this has been a great learning experience for all of us.  Like many others, but probably none of you, when I read a description for a car in the past and it said that the car was certified and documented by Jerry M. dumb me assumed this meant that the drive train was original and there were no questions about the trim tag.  It never dawned on me that he was certifying anything else or perhaps nothing at all other than he made a report on the car.  It was certainly my conclusion as well as many of my experienced car friends that read the description on the green Z that a certification meant a certification when we were in Vegas for the auction.  My thought was his certification was similar to the good housekeeping seal.  Similar thoughts for mopars documented and inspected by Galen.

Thanks to this thread I have learned a very valuable lesson that cost me nothing.  This is that a certification apparently only means that Jerry has inspected the car.  Nothing more.  The thread has taught me a great lesson to dig deeper and really pay attention to the report.  Same goes for Galen or any other expert.

It seems to me though that when an expert inspects a car and it meets a certain criteria it only then has the right to be called certified or?  If it is does not meet that criteria it should not be allowed to be called certified or ?  To me that criteria should at a minimum include requirements for an original driveline which includes the block plus verification of the authenticity of the trim tag.  It would be really neat if the leading experts in the industry that provide these services would take from this experience the need to create a standard explanation for what they have found that is clearly understood within the hobby. 

It is similar to the claim from some Pontiac owners that their car is PHS Documented.  The un-initiated would think the car was restored to the PHS specs.  However, when one digs deeper through the PHS report it is not at all unusual to find that the car has been painted a different color than what it was born with, options such as A/C, Special Hurst packages, power steering, etc. has been added by the restorer.  It is also kind of scary to see a yellow high hi-lighter in the seller’s pocket.

Same goes for the matching numbers claim.  What exactly is matching numbers?  Many of us are afraid to call even an original survivor car matching numbers for fear someone will find some obscure component that is not correct such as a wiper blade, cigarette lighter, etc. that could technically unwind a sale.  Yet we continue to see re-stamped cars called matching numbers.

In the end I realize it is Buyer Beware.  However, if Certifications or whatever you want to call them are to mean anything I really feel they should be based on solid criteria.  Otherwise, why would anyone want to pay for a "certification" especially in light of what we have learned here?   When someone that paid the expert for his services misuses the word certified or ? then they should be called out.

The car hobby is my passion.  I really enjoy seeing others have that same passion.  However, when one gets sucked in on some of the shady descriptions seen today and then finds out the truth it sucks the passion out of the most fervent hobbyist.  With this forum and others plus some help from our experts perhaps we might be able to stop some of this abuse.

Just my 2 cents.
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« Reply #117 on: October 29, 2008, 11:17:03 PM »

excellent post carguy!

i completely agree.
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« Reply #118 on: October 30, 2008, 07:47:38 AM »

I can understand your frustration with not knowing what "certified" means, but if you never ask "what does the certification mean", it's the same as never asking "what does matching #'s mean".  You basically assumed you knew what "certified by JM" meant and took it at face value.  Do any of these people who certify or authenticate cars go and scrape paint off to check for welding around the hidden VIN areas?  I seriously doubt it.  I'm sure this same scenario is why Ed C stopped certifying COPO cars.  People twist the meaning to be deceitfull and misrepresent a car to make profit off of it.  Since we can't seem to get a standard definition of "number's matching", I know we'll never get a standard definition of "certified".  That shouldn't stop people from wanting to get their car certified, Jerry provides a great service to help people restore their cars back to original by pointing out things that are incorrect.  If you want to buy a car that is certified, ask to see the entire report and any hesitation should raise a flag.
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« Reply #119 on: October 30, 2008, 08:19:09 AM »

There is no investigation on the Kent Waters car as of now that I know of.  I wish I could share more with this forum but I cannot.  If someone were to buy the car and show new ownership, I can update my report and pass it along to the new owner.  If Kent or Ron Pratt tells me that I can pass the information along, then I would be glad to post the photos and report on this car.

I must also tell everyone here that Kent was manily interested in having the car pre-judged for the Camaro Nats.  When I inispect a car for someone who is looking to buy a car, my focus goes in a different direction.  But again when looking at the hidden vins, you can only do so much on a finished car.  Project cars are much easier to do.

For all that think I have a great and easy job doing what I do at CHP and running the business, that is not the case.  There is a lot of responsibility that goes into each and every report and all the component work that we do in the shop.  Many clients out there who I have worked for know that I have saved MANY people from purchasing a bad or the wrong Camaro.  I also have the proper licensing and legal credentials to do this work.  I suspect that many of you know that others who have done this work in the past in our arena do not have proper licensing?  Something to think about!

I should also state here that if a drive train is stated as original in one of my reports, it will read "oem to car or vehicle" or "the stampings on this drive train are authentic and do match others in the CHP data base."  The CHP data base is a large file of original stampings and data that I've accumulated over the past 25 years.  Not to be confused with the CRG data base.

Jerry
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« Reply #120 on: October 30, 2008, 08:24:35 AM »

Maybe different levels of Certification is the answer.
Like Certified Camaro Z/28 with Original Drivetrain, Certified Z/28 with Restoration Drivetrain, etc. The certificate could read differently based on what was found to be true during inspection. It would not be foolproof, but could help.
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« Reply #121 on: October 30, 2008, 08:28:52 AM »

Has there been any reaction to any of this from the actual buyer? Does this buyer even know any of this?

I could just imagine being the current owner, and totally oblivious to all this, and then 2 years from now trying to sell this car. What a nightmare that would be.

Jimmy V.
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« Reply #122 on: October 30, 2008, 08:33:52 AM »

I can tell you right now that Ron Pratt does not sit on the computer all day reading posts about Camaros.  All of the big players are much too busy for that.  They rely on people to help them make decisions.

I should also say that I recently inspected a car for Allan Jackson, the country singer.  That did not go well for them but I did give Allan's manager the best professional advise on what to do with the car in question.

Jerry



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« Reply #123 on: October 30, 2008, 09:12:39 AM »

Maybe different levels of Certification is the answer.
Like Certified Camaro Z/28 with Original Drivetrain, Certified Z/28 with Restoration Drivetrain, etc.
The certificate could read differently based on what was found to be true during inspection. It would not be foolproof, but could help.

That is ridiculous - it is up to the purchaser to read the paperwork.

When I look at a Corvette - if I am told the car is Bloomington, or NCRS certified.
THE FIRST THING I ASK FOR - IS TO SEE THE FULL REPORT.

The pages are numbered, and I make sure I see every single page.  Roll Eyes
Also I look to see if it is a Local, Regional, or National award - also, I want to know the names of the judges.
There are WAY to many variables to a "certification".

All that can be expected of an apprasier is to write a report -
If the seller hides the report and only shows the certificate - then there might be a problem.

People like to display their certificate, or Top flight award.
Why should an award have a disclaimer?
The written report is the only thing that means anything - not the certificate.

A Bloomington Silver award, or NCRS 2nd Flight still means an extremely nice car -
You need to look at the report to see why?

An appraisal could even read 6cyl car ---> cloned into a Z/28?  you need to read the report.
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« Reply #124 on: October 30, 2008, 09:37:24 AM »

I agree, but my point is if the Certificate stated "Authentic Camaro Z/28 with Restoration Drivetrain" right on the front, maybe it wouldn't be thrown around and advertised so much.
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« Reply #125 on: October 30, 2008, 09:41:39 AM »

That would still be wrong wouldn't it?  It would have to read "Authentic Camaro Z/28 Trim Tag, VIN plate, and paperwork, with Restoration Drivetrain and Restoration Body"?
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« Reply #126 on: October 30, 2008, 09:46:04 AM »

My point is just that by stating some of the important information on the actual "certificate", it would be obvious immediately. Yes, a smart buyer should read the report too, but that is not always available, especially when someone is trying to hide something.
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« Reply #127 on: October 30, 2008, 10:15:13 AM »

My original point is that  the word certificate or certified should not be used if the car has not met a certain set of criteria such as original drivetrain including block plus authenticity of the trim tag has been verified.  Those cars that do not meet this criteria should be called something else similar to the manner that NCRS distinquishes between Top, second and third NCRS flights or Bloomington Gold and Silver winners.  Most buyers know immediately the difference between a first or second and thrid flight as well as a Bloomington gold or silver.  Why should that not be the same with an experts opinion that is being used to market the car?  This is the point that I am hoping our experts will take from this.

Thanks
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« Reply #128 on: October 30, 2008, 03:07:13 PM »

Well Jerry should be able to release his copy of the report... Kent Waters has apparently put his online...
http://independentcustoms.com/contents01.htm
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« Reply #129 on: October 30, 2008, 03:07:37 PM »

Follow this link to Ken Waters website and you will see they have posted the three page report.

http://independentcustoms.com/contents01.htm

I am confused as the report posted does not mention that the drive train was a restoration drive train and I thought I remember reading that Jerry noted in his report that it was a restoration drive train.
 
" The trim tag and vin number tag and paperwork is real.  I flagged the drive train as a restoration drive train in the report on the car."

Since the report has been posted in the public domain I am hoping we can get a clarification on this.
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« Reply #130 on: October 30, 2008, 03:26:16 PM »

EXACTLY!!!
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« Reply #131 on: October 30, 2008, 04:44:23 PM »

when you 'sign' your name you are *certifying* something...  sometimes it's as simple as 'you are that person'.  At other times, you are certifying that certain information is correct...  ie.. your address, your ownership of an item, or that you are a resident of a state, etc...

When an appraiser 'certifies' his appraisal by signing it, he is stating (certifying) that he believes the contents of the report are true and correct to the extent he has stated it.  Apparently Jerry M believed that car to be correct when he did that report (from reading the report on KM's site).   A judging report on the other hand, simply states what is visible to the eye, and doesn't get so much into 'belief' or subjective knowledge.   It simply reports what the codes say, the colors, if they are correct or not, and then perhaps a subjective judgement as to condition, correctness, etc.   In this case there seems to be some confusion whether this is a 'judging report' (per specific restored Camaro guidelines), or an 'authentic Z28 Certification'.

I have appraised vehicles for 'out of town / out of state' purchasers previously.  I tried to make my report as factual as I could re reading colors, codes, conditions, etc much as Jerry's report does, but I also provided 'My subjective  beliefs' where I believed something to be 'faked'.    I suspect if Jerry had been writing the subject report for a 'prospective buyer' he would have been less reserved in his judgement and statements made in the report.   When I read the report, it *read* more like a detailed 'Judge sheet' than a Certification of authenticity...?
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« Reply #132 on: October 30, 2008, 05:31:08 PM »

A judging report on the other hand, simply states what is visible to the eye, and doesn't get so much into 'belief' or subjective knowledge.   It simply reports what the codes say, the colors, if they are correct or not, and then perhaps a subjective judgement as to condition, correctness, etc.   In this case there seems to be some confusion whether this is a 'judging report' (per specific restored Camaro guidelines), or an 'authentic Z28 Certification'.
  I suspect if Jerry had been writing the subject report for a 'prospective buyer' he would have been less reserved in his judgement and statements made in the report.   When I read the report, it *read* more like a detailed 'Judge sheet' than a Certification of authenticity...?


Guess that is what I was trying to say previously...

  "What is appears to have been done is that they asked for an inspection to verify that the car in question was capable of attaining a certain degree of correctness in a judged sense without completely following through and asking for complete certification of it as a true numbers matching, original vehicle as was apparently stated in the seller's and BJ promotion of it prior to and during the auction itself.
   This sort of splitting hairs I agree, but for the BJ and the seller to be able to attach Jerry's name to the advertising documentation immediately and wrongfully (in thsi case) puts forth to buyers the illusion the car has been attested to by Mr. MacNeish as being what they are stating it is, instead of just a car he deems worthy of attaining a certain degree of show correctness - no minor feat mind you - but a big difference none the less in my eyes.  - Randy
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« Reply #133 on: October 30, 2008, 05:58:57 PM »

From TC...just thought it was appropiate here as well...


I don't think it is all about money to some......The practices of "yesterday" are now today's news...except in this case it looks like this was "today's practice.." Unless "you" modify your thought process instead of in front of the curve you end up behind it..I would suspect that is the case here..IMO JM probably needs to change his process or again IMO stop it altogether if certain practices can't be deduced..

Another case in point...'69 Yenko last three of VIN 272, Daytona Yellow..(don't worry..I discussed this back in 2003 on Yenko.net....caught flak back then..as saying "rebody" was like calling the Pope a name..lol) was a local race car, a known Yenko, a car I used to ride in and cruise Broad Street here in Richmond in, was actually used as Don Yenko probably envisioned.. got abused, cut up, and then in the late 90's.."restored"...all before the 'net and the sharing of info we have today..Unfortunatly in 2003 the then owner didn't know the previous history of his car...I'm sure it was a surprise to find out his "restored" car used to be a 9 sec bracket car which set low et at the 1995 Richmond Super Chevy Show..1 real Yenko VIN, 1 uncut firewall with original tags in place, a bunch of parts from God only knows how many cars..and viola....1 factory original, restored Yenko...a real car with real history...just not a lot of "real" parts save an unpierced cowl with original tag, the VIN tag, and a metal dash

Another example..the items we use as documentation..look at POP's..Who here is going to say a POP bought through Hemmings in 1992 (made on the same GM machines, with the same GM tape, using the same warranty book and metal card as the factopry did) isn't the real deal?? How many POP's which were used over the last 7 years (when the market was hot) to validate a car were actually made in the '80's/'90's??? I'd bet more than a few...especially on Camaros...Is JM responsible for deciding if the ink is '69 or '89 vintage??

There are countless cars which fall into this type of catagory...That is why doing your research is vital today...Unfortunatly because GM didn't envision these cars would be collectible and we are enthusiast have..we have to use ALL of the resources available to us to determine originality...Jerry's report or one like it, is just 1 piece of the equation...and a piece which is open to interpetation as it doesn't address ALL of the potential pitfalls (ie: Is this body shell the same one this VIN left the plant with...was this POP made in 1969 or 1989 and its' just aged?) That is why when paying for a collectible you need to look beyond what is being presented..do some legwork, invest your time and not only your money..

I would susggest the easiest way going forward if someone wants to guarantee their money with these cars...and to not end up in this type of situation...is just evaluate what it would take to build the car...what the parts and labor are worth and pay that...This is what other collectors in other hobbies have to do...It might not be the answer people want to hear..but IMO it is the only answer at this junction..

The sad truth is there isn't any 100% foolproof way to know what you THINK you have is what you TRULY have...unless you bought it new...
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« Reply #134 on: October 30, 2008, 08:10:14 PM »

That is exactly why I bought my Hugger orange Z28 for a premium price.

 Even though the drive train apeared to be correct with casting dates and casting numbers,  but not 100% sure of original due to a blank front pad and pianted rough surface oil filter boss so the partial vin was impossible to see.  The cowl tag was real and never off the car and full ownership history and verbal discusions with all of them proved very helpfull and assuring when paying a high price for the car.  If I had to build the car again it would have cost me as much. 

Jerry wrote up a report on my car a few years ago for the previous owner. It is his way,  apraising and creating a report on a car to state what is original and correct and how it should be from the factory and very thorough at his best ability.   He did not remove the paint by the oil filter boss on my Z28  and he did not remove the alternator to remove the paint which was covering the factory original stampings on the front pad.   He was alone when reviewing my car and had no means of lifting the car and digging and crawling under to do what I did when I took ownership of my 69 Z28.  I removed the paint and found my partial stampings on the oil filter boss that matched my cars vin and removed the paint on the front pad to find the DZ stampings. I was lucky in finding that my car still has the original motor and that my car has been able to provide some info on the August built Z28 cars for the extended production year.   I also did not do it alone, I used the CRG site extensively and all the information from Jerry's book  and did my homework That is what you do to avoid the stings and outcomes of a Mess like this.       

Even though you have a report for a car either by Jerry or another notable venue you should still do your homework and research prior to purchase or have a second or third opinion.   This my 2 cents and my story on my 1969 Z28 that I was told is Jerry Ceritified,  if Jerry help prove that your car was an original Z28 from the birth then that is cool.  Jerry certing that your car is a real Z28 with original drivetrain or not and a well done  appraisal too and helping show you what needs to be done to the car to be a class winner as well. Keep going Jerry!!!   You are human and limited to what can be done while reviewing a car.  If BJ  and the seller used your name in advertising the car they shoiuld have let prospective buyers review it. I do not know if they did because I was not there to buy a 1969 Z28,  I LOVE THE ONE I HAVE.
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« Reply #135 on: October 30, 2008, 09:08:07 PM »

The trim tag and vin number tag and paperwork is real.  I flagged the drive train as a restoration drive train in the report on the car.  I am not at liberty to post reports to the public or on a public forum.  This car was also judged at the Camaro Nationals this past summer in the "Bow Tie" class and scored a silver.  Car was nicely done but there were a lot of little things.  I can't believe that someone paid that much for the car with a resto drive train.  The X-ram and carbs were real though.   

Jerry   





I DONT SEE ANYWHERE IN THE REPORT WHERE IT SAYS RESTORATION DRIVETRAIN! FROM WHAT I READ IT SAYS THE DRIVETRAIN IS REAL!
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« Reply #136 on: October 30, 2008, 09:22:35 PM »

Nothing more than a hired gun, anyone can waste money on that!
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« Reply #137 on: October 30, 2008, 09:36:29 PM »

The final report states that the car has a restoration drive train!!  I have photos of the stampings to show this clearly.  Not even close to correct original factory stampings.  The final report also states that the car showed up on Ebay Oct 2007 as a shell.  What has been posted on the Net is a rough draft report that was sent to K. Waters by me during the first week of June so he would have time to finish the car AND have time to correct the issues that I flagged incorrect for the Camaro Nationals, June 20-22, 2008.  The final report was mailed out to K. Waters during the later part of June.  That has not been posted.  It will be posted shortly.  The car was inspected on June 1, 2008.
  
Jerry

Another note in the report:
Special Note:  Gary Fitzgibbon owned car, showed up again on ebay 10/07, was in PA.  Was still a shell, but it was unclear if it was the original one or not.
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« Reply #138 on: October 30, 2008, 09:40:09 PM »

704ever,

What is a hired gun and how was the money wasted?  Do you know the whole story?  Are you a licensed appraiser?  Is there a problem with the work that I do for the Camaro community?

Jerry
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« Reply #139 on: October 30, 2008, 09:46:22 PM »

fordrocks and 704ever, you guys are pathetic. What is your dog in this hunt? The truth has been printed and you can't comprehend it. Waters duped BJ and the buyer of that car.
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« Reply #140 on: October 30, 2008, 09:52:36 PM »

704ever,

What is a hired gun and how was the money wasted?  Do you know the whole story?  Are you a licensed appraiser?  Is there a problem with the work that I do for the Camaro community?

Jerry

jerry ,
dont let these posts get to you.there is no problem what you do for the camaro comunity.i just asked a simple question.it wasnt in your best interest that the other piece of the report wasnt avail for viewing.

pathetic?

i simply asked a question that was valid?

he said restoration drivetrain and i did not see it in the report.nor was it stated that the report being viewd was not complete!

get off it dude!

your pathetic for even saying that.
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« Reply #141 on: October 30, 2008, 09:57:06 PM »

fordrocks and 704ever, you guys are pathetic. What is your dog in this hunt? The truth has been printed and you can't comprehend it. Waters duped BJ and the buyer of that car.

your not comprehending my question.
i asked about the report.jm said the report stated restoration drivetrain

gary,did you see restoration drivetrain in the report?

no!
so i asked..
you may go sit in the corner of the room now!
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« Reply #142 on: October 30, 2008, 09:57:43 PM »

The final report was not posted on the net.  The quick rough draft was.  Two reports were sent out.  Read my post above.

Jerry
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« Reply #143 on: October 30, 2008, 09:58:17 PM »

The final report states that the car has a restoration drive train!!  I have photos of the stampings to show this clearly.  Not even close to correct original factory stampings.  The final report also states that the car showed up on Ebay Oct 2007 as a shell.  What has been posted on the Net is a rough draft report that was sent to K. Waters by me during the first week of June so he would have time to finish the car AND have time to correct the issues that I flagged incorrect for the Camaro Nationals, June 20-22, 2008.  The final report was mailed out to K. Waters during the later part of June.  That has not been posted.  It will be posted shortly.  The car was inspected on June 1, 2008.
  
Jerry

Another note in the report:
Special Note:  Gary Fitzgibbon owned car, showed up again on ebay 10/07, was in PA.  Was still a shell, but it was unclear if it was the original one or not.


fordrocks, read the first sentence. Can you do that? Or are you only wanting to see what you want to see?
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« Reply #144 on: October 30, 2008, 10:00:52 PM »

Mike Joy....Was the final report on display with the car or just what Waters has posted on his website ?
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« Reply #145 on: October 30, 2008, 10:04:47 PM »

gary l,
your so smart!
now go back and read where i asked my question.

yeah,thats right!

before jerrys post.

see? he asnwerd my question and then you became so smarts after the fact..

ok. back to the corner again please.
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« Reply #146 on: October 30, 2008, 10:09:45 PM »

gary l,
your so smart!
now go back and read where i asked my question.

yeah,thats right!

Then keep up or drop out.

before jerrys post.

see? he asnwerd my question and then you became so smarts after the fact..

ok. back to the corner again please.

Then keep up or drop out. Grin
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« Reply #147 on: October 30, 2008, 10:15:16 PM »

OK kids, lets quit bickering.  Life is short.

Jerry thanks for your detailed response.  It speaks out loudly about what actually happened here.
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« Reply #148 on: October 30, 2008, 10:22:29 PM »

thanks. jerry,to bad he was able to display only a partial report that didnt state all the facts.

sir,next time put everything on the first piece of paper.no addendums or second reports etc.

this one may have bit you just a lil bit.

keep the chin up jerry.
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« Reply #149 on: October 30, 2008, 10:33:25 PM »

GaryL,

quit being so harsh.its not rocket science!look at the time stamps of our postings.i asked the question at 10:08pm and jerry replied to it at 10:36pm.

so i have a legitimate question.

you can come out of your coner now and be nice again.Smiley
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« Reply #150 on: October 30, 2008, 11:34:55 PM »

Jerry has given his permission to post the FINAL report and pictures to clear up any confusion regarding the report. Since he's travelling tomorrow and has gone to bed, he asked that I post the report and pictures and include this statement:

My current procedure when inspecting any car is to send the client a quick rough draft because in two cases years ago, after I told two different clients that the drive trains were not real,  I was not paid the balance that I was owed for my services because they did not want the cars.  This is a tough spot and I never tell a client on-site when a drive train is fake until I am paid in full.

In the case of this particular car, I was there two weeks before the Camaro Nationals and he needed something right away to work on the car.  Once I down loaded the photos (which I do later), I updated the report and added the updated drive train information, along with the information that Kurt and the CRG gave me about the car. That was done in June 2008 but I don’t have an exact date.

The attached report is the FINAL report noting the restoration drive train, along with the information regarding the fact that this car was originally owned by Gary Fitzgibbon, and showed up again on ebay 10/07 in Pennsylvania. As you can see from the "Special note", at that time the car was still a shell, but it was unclear if it was the original one or not.

I am also giving special permission to show pictures of the restoration engine stampings, along with the transmission and rear axle stampings.

In closing, the report posted by Kent Waters is the PRELIMINARY rough draft so he could work on the car and fix the various component issues noted before the Camaro Nationals. I would like to add that a copy of the final report was also mailed to Kent at the end of June, 2008 with the notations regarding the restoration drive train.

Thank you very much
Jerry MacNeish


This post includes the FINAL report (attached) while my next post will include the pictures.
Ed

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Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #151 on: October 30, 2008, 11:38:27 PM »

And here are the pictures.

Ed
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #152 on: October 30, 2008, 11:48:23 PM »

The stamps on the axle and transmission look *TOO* good...   Smiley   and the photo on the engine stamping is insufficient for analysis, but it's pretty evident that the VIN stamp was not performed in a gang holder...  it *might* be good enough for a 'judging', but I'd be very doubtful that the drivetrain was the original one if I were appraising this car.

PS.  was there any difference in the two versions of the Report other than the note which Jerry placed at the bottom of the latter one?
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« Reply #153 on: October 30, 2008, 11:58:46 PM »

that is the only difference i could see?  i didnt see the note where Jerry said the drivetrain was not original...
i was expecting something completely different than what Waters put on his website.  i was ready for a grand conclusion to this whole mess....i'm not sure that this does it for me...and i suspect a lot of other people will feel the same way?  at this point its going to become an argument between JM and KW regarding what was in the report recieved and what wasnt in the report recieved.   
also, i know that im a "newbie", i've been around for a while reading and learning...just never saw anything interesting enough to throw a post on!!
mike
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« Reply #154 on: October 31, 2008, 01:07:20 AM »

There are two main differences that I see.
At the bottom of page one, it says "Restoration drive train."
The Special Note on page three.
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« Reply #155 on: October 31, 2008, 02:20:02 AM »

It's easy to miss down at the bottom.   The whole comments section leads me to believe it's a real,  original,  authentic  Z-28 Camaro and then those last three words throws off the whole deal.

Comments:
This 1969 Camaro, vin #124379N509335 has been certified by Camaro Hi-Performance. According to our data base and
historical Chevrolet records, this car is an original Z28 302-290 horsepower V-8 with Muncie 4-speed transmission and
factory 12-bolt rear axle . This Camaro and trim tag are certified as real and authentic. The exterior and interior colors are
correct for this vehicle and match the trim identification tag on the firewall. Summary; car falls into the concours restored
category with some final assembly that still needs to be done. Only 20,302 1969 Z28s were produced making the Z28
Camaro one of the most desirable muscle cars in today’s market place. Rally green is one of the more desirable colors for the
1969 Z28. Page two of this report will address any component and fastener issues that need to be corrected at the time of my
inspection. Correcting these issues will enhance the value and authenticity of this vehicle. The cross-ram intake manifold and
4295 carburetors are real and authentic, not reproductions. Excellent original documentation file with this Z28 Camaro.
Restoration drive train.
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« Reply #156 on: October 31, 2008, 03:56:50 AM »

Wrong stamps on all three pieces.  Aspect ratio is incorrect r everythinbg.  1's were not used on Sept 68 engine stamings, I's were.  Numbers are all over the place. 

Jerry
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« Reply #157 on: October 31, 2008, 07:49:34 AM »

Anyone who has been around here for more than a month could tell by looking at the VIN on the Block it was a restamp... 
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« Reply #158 on: October 31, 2008, 08:37:18 AM »

Sorry, but the 2 report thing smells bad.
If KW needed something to finish his car for Carlisle - the list from page 2 would have been all he needed.

Anyone ever sell a car and write up two bill of sales?  Angry
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« Reply #159 on: October 31, 2008, 08:38:15 AM »

I just have one quick question...Why do "rough drafts" get a signature and "final reports" dated the same day do not?
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« Reply #160 on: October 31, 2008, 09:46:32 AM »

I'm beginning to think I'm better off with an unrestored Z, even though it's no show car.

Jimmy V.
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« Reply #161 on: October 31, 2008, 09:47:31 AM »

I just have one quick question...Why do "rough drafts" get a signature and "final reports" dated the same day do not?
Easy to see that the reports are generated on a word processor. Look at the address etc. deleted for privacy. The copy was probably printed to post here. I have no idea if the person requesting the report gets the only signed copy or not.
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« Reply #162 on: October 31, 2008, 09:57:05 AM »

However, after mulling it a bit more....

If KW thought that the first draft was his "official" report -
He wouldn't have scribbled all over it.
Obviously, he knew another report was coming.
But that is not the point - There should not be 2 reports.   Angry

And IMO those stamps are pretty close  - don't have to be an expert to be fooled by those.
The block was professionally broached and re-stamped - and that cost a lot of money.
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« Reply #163 on: October 31, 2008, 10:03:13 AM »

It's possible Waters was not happy about getting a second report. It was someting that had to be done in light of new info.
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« Reply #164 on: October 31, 2008, 10:03:42 AM »

I'm beginning to think I'm better off with an unrestored Z, even though it's no show car.

Jimmy V.
I agree with you JimmyV....   If your car is 'decent', I'd suggest keeping it original; in  my mind it's worth more than a 'restored car'.   I will keep mine original and only cleanup/detail where it's most needed.

I've judged cars at national meets in several organizations (CCCI, NNC, CNA, and NCRS) and in my opinion, for a *Restored Car* it's next to impossible (in most cases) to determine if that is the way the car came from the factory.  For such a restored car, you really can only evaluate the correctness and quality of the restoration!  

Note:  Some people have used the term 'factory original' to describe the LV Green car.   That is totally incorrect.   'Factory Original' generally describes a vehicle that has NOT been restored, and is has very few 'changed' parts from the way the factory built it 'back when'...   In most cases, these cars show normal wear, but no restoration/modification/etc...   These 'factory original cars' are the ones we learn the most from because their owners over the years have not tampered with the car, only drove it.
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« Reply #165 on: October 31, 2008, 10:14:27 AM »

The trim tag and vin number tag and paperwork is real.  I flagged the drive train as a restoration drive train in the report on the car.  I am not at liberty to post reports to the public or on a public forum.  This car was also judged at the Camaro Nationals this past summer in the "Bow Tie" class and scored a silver.  Car was nicely done but there were a lot of little things.  I can't believe that someone paid that much for the car with a resto drive train.  The X-ram and carbs were real though.  

Jerry  


Your comment 'I can't believe that someone paid that much for the car with a resto drive train. ' is interesting now that we can see you evaluated the car value earlier this year as 'between $100,000 to 120,000' ?  $125,000 is not a great deal more, and if the person buying it really liked it??   and Yes, the market is down but...      What valuation would you put on the car now, given the current 'market'??
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« Reply #166 on: October 31, 2008, 10:21:57 AM »

Here's my 2 cents.....

1.Jerry - your practice of writing up a preliminary report to allow owners to correct their cars before a final one is a wonderful gesture because it saves people from having to spend money twice. Unfortunately, it opens up the possibly of mis-interpretation as to the actual state of a car if the final report is not used to convey the cars true state. Perhaps in the future, you can consider something as indentified below so that preliminary reports cannot be used in an incorrect way. It would have saved you from all this crap.




Wrong stamps on all three pieces.  Aspect ratio is incorrect r everything.  1's were not used on Sept 68 engine stamings, I's were.  Numbers are all over the place. 

Jerry

2. Perhaps you can actually state more definitive comments as above in final reports so that perspective buyers would be better educated as to the true state of a car.


3. Finally, your reports do not regularily state anything as to the issue of re-body. Stating a trim tag is authentic is not sufficient proof that a car is authentic. You should also consider stating in your report that a car has had it's trim tag removed in the past or not. I know you can determine this without difficulty. Sure some have been removed for legitimate restoration purposes but I would think that you would hold that information as of great importance.


I hope you keep doing what you are doing because you have made an impact to the 1st gen Camaro world. Please just consider updating your process a bit to reflect the current reality of the hobby.
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It's impossible to have a valid certificate of authenticity without verifying that it is not a rebody.
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« Reply #167 on: October 31, 2008, 10:47:41 AM »

Yes Jerry you have helped so many of us on this site  with these first gen cars,it is appreciated believe me. Thanks
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« Reply #168 on: October 31, 2008, 11:21:16 AM »

Yes Jerry you have helped so many of us on this site  with these first gen cars,it is appreciated believe me. Thanks

X2.
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« Reply #169 on: October 31, 2008, 12:49:00 PM »

X3

Jerry's got a tough job.  He's walking a fine line trying to make a living but some of his customers don't really want to hear the truth.
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« Reply #170 on: October 31, 2008, 03:49:42 PM »

jerry has been invaluable to me he helped me reunite my car with its original engine.  with that said he is just a man and these are cars put together by men and women i presume so there are bound to be iregularities in the process of verifing a car.  much like a home inspector you could hire two different ones and get two completely different opinions. so lets just give the guy a break, he told me what was wrong with my car i fixed some of them others i knew to be original so i left it.  as for the price i thought it was fair, and like i said he helped me when i never even deamed of finding the engine.
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« Reply #171 on: October 31, 2008, 04:58:16 PM »

X3

Jerry's got a tough job.  He's walking a fine line trying to make a living but some of his customers don't really want to hear the truth.

X4
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Rich Pern
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« Reply #172 on: November 01, 2008, 10:43:43 PM »

Sorry, but the 2 report thing smells bad.
If KW needed something to finish his car for Carlisle - the list from page 2 would have been all he needed.

Anyone ever sell a car and write up two bill of sales?  Angry

I must say this quote makes a lot of sense to me.
How do we know who is telling the truth? That second report with the “restoration drive train” sentence added could have been revised two days ago! The first report that is supposed to be the draft without the “restoration drive train sentence” is on the guy’s website! And KW and JM both have that copy!
As far as I see it, the \"draft” report without the sentence “restoration drive train” IS THE ORIGINAL!
If this went to a court and KW has only the copy without “restoration drivetrain”and JM had two versions to himself? That would not look good if I were the judge. I think I would have to believe KW.

Don’t kill me for saying what I feel but. I’m sure a few more has thought the same thing i did.
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« Reply #173 on: November 01, 2008, 10:49:50 PM »

its like this;
if i left an auto shop with my white copy of a work order that says tune up $100 and lets say JM was my mechanic and his copy was just like mine except it had on the bottom \"additional full rebuild\"$1000 that was not on my copy.
what would a judge think? i think a judge would beleive my copy for $100!
this is the exact reason you dont leave a shop without taking your copy first! so the shop cant add extra items on it!
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« Reply #174 on: November 01, 2008, 10:58:37 PM »

somebody ,JerryM please prove me wrong with your side of the story!Some reason i know your not to blame for this and im sure there is a logical explanation to this.
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« Reply #175 on: November 02, 2008, 12:41:38 AM »

Fordrocks, why do you continue to pick at this scab? I'm always curious when newbies sign up and the first words spewed out of their mouths are crap like:

Quote
wait,let me get this straight!you say the paperwork and vin is real.but it came from another body that has been long gone!this to me sounds illegal.how can this be certified by some self proclaimed guru?its not a restoration drivetrain.its a illegal transfer of vin!i didnt hear anything about this on tv!

I'm also amused to find that these people never post their real names, never have an email address and never seem to know jack $h!t about these cars, the Camaro community or the people that frequent the community.

In addition, they always seem to select user names that will stir up the pot, and continue to post meaningless questions long after the facts have been presented.

You my friend, are very close to being ejected on the SYC site, and it's not surprising why. I would imagine that Dennis has also had enough of your BS over on the TC site, so you might want to tread lightly over there as well.

Jerry and others have already posted more than enough information for anyone with half a brain to figure out the car's a F-A-K-E, yet you and a few other newbies seem to believe that Jerry is lying and the VIN, Trim Tag, Cowl Vin and other parts that were PHYSICALLY removed for the ORIGINAL car, have somehow miraculously reattached themselves again.

I'd really like to know what your involvement in this particular car is, because it has to be something or you wouldn't be defending it so much. Are you the seller? Are you the buyer? Are you the scumbag that welded the parts together to create this piece of $h!t? Exactly how do you fit into the conspiricy that continues to try and keep this thread alive??

Jerry has answered the question, period. He has no other information on the car that will apease you or your cronies, and in all honesty, he has nothing to prove. He's been doing this for many, MANY years, and his name and reputation are highly respected world wide. And, although I don't speak for Jerry, I would imagine he'll probably not post again. There's no reason to.

If YOU want to believe the car is real, be my guest. I have no control over other peoples misguided beliefs, nor do I have the desire to argue the point. My mother always told me "Never argue with an idiot", so I won't.

This thread is done and the car has been proven to be a fake. I'll no longer read any posts on this site, the SYC site or the TC site regarding this car, so feel free to call me any name in the book you would like. I won't see it.

Ed Bertrand
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« Reply #176 on: November 02, 2008, 07:28:40 AM »

BRAVO ED !!!
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« Reply #177 on: November 02, 2008, 08:39:40 AM »

Sorry, but the 2 report thing smells bad.
If KW needed something to finish his car for Carlisle - the list from page 2 would have been all he needed.

Anyone ever sell a car and write up two bill of sales?  Angry

I must say this quote makes a lot of sense to me.
How do we know who is telling the truth? That second report with the “restoration drive train” sentence added could have been revised two days ago! The first report that is supposed to be the draft without the “restoration drive train sentence” is on the guy’s website! And KW and JM both have that copy!
As far as I see it, the \"draft” report without the sentence “restoration drive train” IS THE ORIGINAL!
If this went to a court and KW has only the copy without “restoration drivetrain”and JM had two versions to himself? That would not look good if I were the judge. I think I would have to believe KW.

Don’t kill me for saying what I feel but. I’m sure a few more has thought the same thing i did.


Jerry can't place himself in a position of issuing a falsified report two days ago and be able to maintain his credentials and license as an appraiser.  It would be an incredibly simple thing for that to be lost.

As Ed said, I think you are here strictly to involve yourself in something you have no personal business associated with, and merely wish to stir things up repeatedly.

Try doing something new and novel - THINK before placing fingers on the keyboard to type your next post.  As yourself "Does what I'm typing make the slightest bit of sense in this matter?  Does my input even matter?  Have I actually given thought to the full ramifications of my soon to be incessant rambling?"

I'd bet when you HONESTLY answer those questions, you won't click that "Post" button.
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« Reply #178 on: November 02, 2008, 09:01:14 AM »

When a wise man and a fool argue onlookers can rarely determine the difference...
It's a derivative of a verse from Proverbs...
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James
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« Reply #179 on: November 02, 2008, 09:25:19 AM »

I think you all have this guy wrong.
He just wants to know if KW ever actually received the "official report".

And that is not for us to speculate about at this point.
The legal system is going to sort this one out - and I am sure this car is going to turn up again.

The car is absolutely amazing - still a very valuable car- no mater what it "was".
Just the quality of the restoration, and the value of the parts is quite extensive.

With those new Dynacorn replacement body shells - this stuff is going to come up a lot in the future.
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« Reply #180 on: November 02, 2008, 11:18:35 AM »

I think you all have this guy wrong.
He just wants to know if KW ever actually received the "official report".

Jeff, I don't believe that for one minute. OF COURSE KW received the final copy of the report - he just chose not to show it. Fordrocks (and the other newbie agitators) have continued to stir the pot here and on three other sites while they hide behind their keyboards, spouting ridiculous conspiracy theories. We don't need them here playing their kiddie chat-room games, nor do the other sites.
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« Reply #181 on: November 02, 2008, 11:30:53 AM »

If you look at the report Rich Pern posted on TC and the one KW posted on his website the glaring differeces are the "little nit-picking" items on KW's report. I doubt zinc plated gutter screws are used to verify a real Z/28. The KW report was obviously pointed at judging not verifying.

If KW was such a high level restorer how did he get a distributor with a painted vacuum can? The comment about seam sealer too narrow is probably because the vin section was welded in and burned the original sealer. There is a bunch of info in this report if you just look.
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« Reply #182 on: November 02, 2008, 11:41:16 AM »

Also like I posted on the TC site, in every instance I know of, the report comes a few weeks after Jerry has been out and inspected. He takes the pics, documentation and numbers back to his place and sends you the final report. In the five or six cars around here that Jerry has certified, I have not seen the report for a few weeks.

This FACT, along with the KW report being a bullet list checked off by I assume KW, seems to support Jerry's answer. Like most of the people here agree, I think some are trying to take the focus off of an obviously rebodied car, and place it at Jerrys feet.

I see this as an instance of Jerry once again trying to be accomidating(sp), and now getting burned for it.

Let's face it, I am nowhere near an expert, and even I can see that the pad is a restamp. Does anyone REALLY think that Jerry would have missed that?

That can only leave you with either one of two conclusions.

Rich

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Rich Pern
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« Reply #183 on: November 02, 2008, 12:35:58 PM »

Yes - I believe got the 2nd copy, and chose not to show it - that is why the first one was scribbled all over.
But - I bet it has been destroyed. I hope JM has proof of delivery?

Really does not pay to speculate anymore...
From what I heard the car has been impounded - the authorities will have to sort it out.
This is really a mess for the hobby.
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« Reply #184 on: November 02, 2008, 12:40:53 PM »

Its  not a hobby for the scumbags with the swapped tags, repro tags, restamped engines, its a business.  the sooner we are free from them the better off we'll all be.
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« Reply #185 on: November 02, 2008, 12:56:05 PM »

Its  not a hobby for the scumbags with the swapped tags, repro tags, restamped engines, its a business.  the sooner we are free from them the better off we'll all be.

AMEN! If the financial "crisis" shakes the scumbags from the hobby it may prove to have been worth it.
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« Reply #186 on: November 02, 2008, 01:30:01 PM »

bertfarm,
your way off.lets not talk about me ok?i just asked a question.im not the bulder or seller.i wasnt at BJ.im not trying to stir anything up ok.so i hope your done on your rant.anyway,pacecar jeff is right.i just asked a question.and it is this. when did JM rewrite the report?how can he prove it is the original report and not rewritten last week?if KW has only a copy of the report that dont say restoration drivetrain then that would be the original report.Kw has his copy on his website so he and jerry has that copy.but only jm has the revised copy that says restoration drivetrain.how do we know it wasnt just typed on and posted last week?thats all i wanted to know.im sure Jerry M has a logical explianation.i just wanted to hear it.

so the revised copy with restoration drivtrain printed on it is only in the hands jm right? kw doesnt have this copy right? jerry said kw didnt get it since he didnt pay in full.ok i understand that.

once again,my question is this.how can jerry prove that he didnt just print this revised copy recently?
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« Reply #187 on: November 02, 2008, 01:44:33 PM »

pacecarjeff is the only guy here on the same page as me.so let me explain.johnz beleives that kw received the final report with restoration drivetrain.he just dont want to show it for obvious reasons.i want to believe this also.but how can jerry prove time of delivery of this final report?how do we know jerry didnt just print this final report?kw can say that he has never seen that revised copy.
john z,how do you beleive this beond a reasonable doubt?do you have proof?another question,did kw receive the final report?i thought he didnt because of lack of final payment of$150?

so sum this up.
john z,how do you beleive this beond a reasonable doubt?

did kw receive the final report?i thought he didnt because of lack of final payment of$150?

how can jerry prove time of delivery of this final report?

lets not bikker or blame.its just a question.im not trying to stir it up!i just want to know.very simple.please no harm intended.

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« Reply #188 on: November 02, 2008, 01:50:27 PM »

bertfarm,
your way off.lets not talk about me ok?i just asked a question.im not the bulder or seller.i wasnt at BJ.im not trying to stir anything up ok.so ..........

So who are you and why did you show up to talk about only this topic? Do you have a first gen Camaro? Do you know anything about first gen Camaros? So far I have not seen anywhere that you have contributed knowledge to this hobby. I am only asking a question now.
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« Reply #189 on: November 02, 2008, 01:56:07 PM »

to be fair i will answer your question.i have been on this site since the beginning.i choose to not say who i am.i have a certified Jm 69 z.i purchased it 4-5 years ago and it came with jm certs.so this topic is important to me.but lets not talk about whos posting ok?lets talk about the subject on hand.thank you.
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« Reply #190 on: November 02, 2008, 02:30:35 PM »

Fordrocks...You are getting confused. The 150.00 payment issue was with someone else.
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« Reply #191 on: November 02, 2008, 03:02:55 PM »

charlie,thank you for that.
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« Reply #192 on: November 02, 2008, 03:25:01 PM »

I just have to say - I really don't know anything.
I was not there - I have no vested interest in this car.

I was just speculating- which I really don't want to do anymore.
I do know Jerry - he is a valuable asset to this hobby.
And this whole thing is an unfortunate event.
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« Reply #193 on: November 02, 2008, 04:58:05 PM »

im actually tired of talking about it also.i hope we find out the truth and the outcome.and nobody gets hurt.
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« Reply #194 on: November 02, 2008, 05:24:46 PM »

Carlisle was in June.  I'm sure Jerry had plenty of time between June and October to send the final report.  But I'm sure Jerry will post back up when he returns from his trip.  Way too much speculation going on here especially for such an important subject.  In the end, the car has an obvious restamped engine and nobody should be willing to spend $125K unless the color matches their jacket!  Grin
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« Reply #195 on: November 02, 2008, 06:18:58 PM »

to be fair i will answer your question.i have been on this site since the beginning.i choose to not say who i am.i have a certified Jm 69 z.i purchased it 4-5 years ago and it came with jm certs.so this topic is important to me.but lets not talk about whos posting ok?lets talk about the subject on hand.thank you.

Date Registered:  October 19, 2008, 06:38:41 PM


If you're hiding under a duplicate account, it's far from appreciated and I will be verifying that.  Cowardly starts to be an apt description.
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« Reply #196 on: November 02, 2008, 06:39:51 PM »

I guess he means he's been here since the begining of this thread.
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« Reply #197 on: November 02, 2008, 07:39:44 PM »

dougD,please get off it!this this thread is not about me!carry on with the subject!
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« Reply #198 on: November 02, 2008, 07:43:02 PM »

am i able to post some questions without ridicule?what is this site?communist?
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« Reply #199 on: November 02, 2008, 09:09:48 PM »

Fordrocks, I am tired of all of your input! Please let us all get a bit of rest!  I am not into posting without reguard, but you are making me very tired.    Let it go and move on.      The car in question "is what is it is " and move on.  I bet I speak in behalf of all people on this site.   

 
With a site name like FORDROCKS, A person would be retarded not to relize what you are doing, leave us ALONE and move on, please remove him from the CRG site.  Thank You.  Just my input!   
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« Reply #200 on: November 02, 2008, 11:08:49 PM »

fordrocks,
This site tends to be more research oriented and hence more reserved. Observing the different etiquette of this site would go a long way towards easing tensions here. It would also help if you didn't post three times in a row.  Wink

Others,
Eliminate the name-calling and other unbecoming behaviors....

Thanks!
Kurt - moderator
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« Reply #201 on: November 03, 2008, 09:24:10 AM »

Without knowing all the facts, I tend to think, “What are the odds”?

We have Jerry, who has 30 plus years experience with an excellent resume a mile long VS a guy who restored a rust bucket Camaro into a “Cross Ram Z/28” and brought it to BJ to shoot for the moon.

Best I can do for you is 99 to 1.
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« Reply #202 on: November 03, 2008, 09:43:31 AM »

Exactly - Like I said before.
"If done by an expert - the appraiser could never tell - and the auction house would never know.
The only one who would know for sure is the person doing the "change" work, or the person ordering it done."

There are so many scams out there - fake tags, repro bodies, POP's...  ect. making it very difficult to catch.
This car used all real stuff, and a real body shell - IMO this would have fooled any expert.
without taking the car apart it would be impossible to tell a rebody

If not for the ebay stuff, and a former owner - this may have been the perfect crime
I wonder if there are other similar cars built at this particular shop?

Who would have thought?
I guess this is a lesson for the criminals - you can't just go buy some tags, an appraisal, and a body, to build yourself a pedigree.
The truth will come out in the end.

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« Reply #203 on: November 03, 2008, 09:51:25 AM »

Following the various threads on this subject has been quite disturbing to me.   I was taught early on to trust people unless they prove otherwise.  It always bothers me though when I come upon a life lesson such as what has been discussed here that again tells me to be skeptical of everything.

Yet, I am amazed at some of the things I see in my hobby that I enjoy so much.  While I have owned a number of Z-28’s my main experience has been in the corvette World.  In that world when someone says that something is certified the image of Bloomington Gold and a thorough vetting of the car by experts comes to mind.  Yes, it can be either Bloomington Silver or Gold certified which anyone that has been around the hobby for any period of time knows means two quite different things.  If there is any question about a engine pad the best it will earn is silver.  I had assumed that certification by Jerry McNeish, when used to market a car, was similar to Bloomington Gold Certification.  Based on Jerry’s reputation I thought certification in this sense meant that the drive train was at a minimum original.  Otherwise, I still cannot think of any reason why it would be called certified.   I am guessing many others that are not as well versed in the Camaro hobby as most of you would come to a similar conclusion.  With Jerry’s well deserved reputation the loose use of “certified and documented by Jerry M.” and dropping it at that could lead someone not as experienced as most on this forum to a very expensive lesson.  My assumptions are my mistake as I should have been more skeptical.

It is also very troubling to me that the restorer would post what Jerry M says is the  initial report as the report in the manner that he did on his web site assuming he has the final report.  Reading Jerry’s comments about when the final report was sent leaves me with only one conclusion, which is that he received the final report.  We have not heard from the restorer and there very well could be another side of this story that has not been told.   I then re-read the auction description provided by the owner and my personal decision is to add this name to others that I have learned to give a wide swath away from if they are offering cars for sale until I know more.  Just my opinion which means nothing, but I would guess others have come to a similar conclusion. 

I have learned many expensive lessons through the years that have taught me to be very skeptical of car descriptions provided by owners at auctions.  This thread has taught me to be even more skeptical and the neat thing is it cost me nothing more than my time.  If you are not comfortable in your knowledge you need to have someone much more experienced look closely at the car and tell you exactly what it is.  The only time that I have not practiced this is when the car has been thoroughly vetted in competition judging and I can personally view those sheets.  My new skeptical self says still look very closely because some of the rare expensive components might have been removed since judging.  I had also placed great emphasis on expert certifications provided by the seller, but thanks to this thread that mistake will not be made again.

It was said several times in some of the threads that there are “seller” reports and “buyer” reports.  I sure hope this practice does not exist.  If the report is to mean anything and the experts opinion to be relied upon it needs to say the same thing regardless of who is paying for it.  I would be very surprised if this practice exists.

I have been an active buyer and seller of collector cars at most of the auctions.  I have the utmost respect for Barrett-Jackson.  My personal experience is that Barrett Jackson goes to great lengths to verify cars.  If you are claiming that your car has special awards, documentation, etc. you must send copies of your documentation to them before they will accept a consignment.  Based on the information that you give them if they feel there is anything amiss in the description it must be changed.  This is very impressive in my view, as I personally do not know of any other auction house that goes to this length.  However, I am not inferring in any way that this happened in this instance as I have no dog in this fight and have no real knowledge of what actually happened other than what I have read on the internet, what would happened if Jerry was issuing two reports and a seller sent only the initial report to Barrett?  Would it not be fair to assume that they would conclude what most concluded after reading the first report for this car that the car was the real deal?  Without additional information the assumption could easily be made from what we have heard on the threads that the first report was used to market this car.

I greatly respect Jerry M. and all that he has done to improve our hobby.  Without the help of such dedicated people the hobby would not be what it is today.  I am hoping that he and the other experts will learn from this as all of us have.  At a minimum, if two reports are issued the first should read DRAFT.  Further, the negative aspects of the report should be more clearly noted.

Whatever comes of this and irregardless of who is at fault here it makes those of us that are trying to be honest in our dealings have to work a lot harder to gain others confidence.  Perhaps this is the way it should be, but I sure liked it better when I could assume everyone was being honest until they proved otherwise.

I grew up on a small farm.  At an early age Dad taught me what a spade was.  He taught me to never call that spade anything but a spade and to apply this lesson to life.   He said “people can and will trust you if you always call a spade a spade and nothing more”.   He also said “It is OK to call it the nicest spade in the world as long as it truly is”.  If it has it’s original sharpness to the blade it is OK to tell others of this, but if you have sharpened it or placed a new blade on the spade you need to tell others about this when you are trying to sell it.  He then pointed to a hoe and said that if anyone ever tries to tell me that that a hoe is a spade I need to give that guy a wide berth.  He would be shocked today that they are even trying to pass off a new item which they call a Ho as a spade.  I doubt that he would be real pleased with this turn of events.
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« Reply #204 on: November 03, 2008, 02:10:43 PM »

You can't compare Corvettes to Camaros since all Corvettes were all pretty much sports cars.  The Camaro is a low cost sedan that has lots of performance/dress up options but also came in a very base stripped down model so grandma could get to the store.  So a Z28, SS, RS, Pace Car, COPO all have highly desired options which enhance the car.  Jerry is certifying or verifying that a car is one of these models.  He then goes on to explain the level of authenticity and originality.  There are no standards for certifying Camaros so never assume anything.  I'm sure Jerry has certified lots of Z28's even though their original drivetrain may be long gone.  Paperwork and other original parts help to identify some of these models.  Old dealer records he might have also help to verify certain cars.  We all seem to be using Jerry as an example here, but what about the Mopar certifications and Ford certifications?  How are they done?  I've personally seen an AAR Cuda or Challenger TA that was 2 car halves welded together!  What do they do with cars like that?  This is not specifically a Camaro issue, it's a classic car issue.  Look at the number of LS6 Chevelle convertibles that seem to be popping up lately.  Lots of fake buildsheets running around with Chevelles now, so never assume paperwork is legit without checking with an expert that particular make/model car. 
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« Reply #205 on: November 03, 2008, 03:29:23 PM »

So you guy's, what about these stock markets.....
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« Reply #206 on: November 03, 2008, 04:28:48 PM »

much rather have blue chip muscle
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« Reply #207 on: November 03, 2008, 04:31:38 PM »

..........  There are no standards for certifying Camaros so never assume anything.  I'm sure Jerry has certified lots of Z28's even though their original drivetrain may be long gone.  .........

A car does not cease to be what it is, just because an original engine is not in the car. It used to be more so than now that a car needing an engine would get an exchange at the shop. No one really cared back then. Only recently has the hobby put more emphasis on original parts. Don't cloud what happened here. A crook made something into something it never was.  I have not seen a recognized national body to develope standards. I guess Corvette guys are happy with non-original parts since here are more Tri-powered cars now than were ever built. I think it is a different world they live with their cars. Kind of like the Cobra kit car people. I don't mean any disrespect either. Smiley
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« Reply #208 on: November 03, 2008, 04:47:33 PM »

I have heard that it is acceptible to have a corvette with a stamped engine pad, which seems different that the camaro world if correct.

Rich
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« Reply #209 on: November 04, 2008, 11:41:09 AM »

I have heard that it is acceptible to have a corvette with a stamped engine pad, which seems different that the camaro world if correct.

Rich

That's correct, if the pad surface and stampings appear to be typical of factory production and haven't been counterfeited to make the engine appear to be a different configuration than it was originally. In NCRS Flight Judging, a non-typical pad results in an 88-point deduction (25% of the points allocated to the block); in Bloomington Gold judging, a non-typical pad results in the car being "boxed" to a maximum of "Silver" - the car can't earn "Gold" regardless of how good the rest of the car is.
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« Reply #210 on: November 15, 2008, 07:47:50 AM »

Has become practice/acceptable to restamp engine pads, but I see the pad as the same importance as the hidden VIN's on the body/frame on a vehicle, they are all used to identify a vehicle to its serial number. Altering any of these VIN derivatives to match a VIN is illegal and all clubs including NCRS should not tolerate fraud from its membership.  Any car with a altered VIN or VIN derivative should NOT be allowed to be certified. For certification if all the VIN's check out then this would be the basis for the certification to build on. If a certifier cannot check VIN locations for whatever reason then a certification should not be given.
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« Reply #211 on: November 15, 2008, 08:16:34 AM »

NOT the same - the engine is a commonly replaced component
That is like saying it is not OK to stencil the VIN onto your glass - as many police departments do.
Adding YOUR vin to your legally obtained engine block - could be considered a similar security measure.

The hidden #'s were put in place to verify a vehicles body and title -
those same #'s were  stamped on the block only to prevent theft of that component.
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« Reply #212 on: November 15, 2008, 10:08:35 AM »

I understand what you mean when you say you want to stamp a partial VIN on your glass or your engine block to prevent theft.  However, I can not help but believe that 99.9% of VIN stamping on Camaro engine blocks is not due to concerns of theft.  The intent, I am sure, is deception and nothing less.  However, this is only my opinion and I could be wrong. 
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« Reply #213 on: November 15, 2008, 11:05:14 AM »

I read somewhere that only the hi-po engine blocks had a partial VIN stamp. That was to track warranties.

I would bet that the restamping of engines was just part of the la-la of Corvette show world. The original intent was not to commit fraud, but just build a car to participate with in shows. Just like the repro Cobra car world.
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« Reply #214 on: November 15, 2008, 11:33:32 AM »






 So when a guy broaches a block then restamps his VIN derivative, this is purely for theft reasons?
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« Reply #215 on: November 15, 2008, 11:57:47 AM »

No -- it is to make it appear as delivered for judging points. Just like buying any correct looking repro part.

I agree with NCRS - as John Z previously provided =
"if the pad surface and stampings appear to be typical of factory production and haven't been counterfeited to make the engine appear to be a different configuration than it was originally"

Why should this be a crime?
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« Reply #216 on: November 15, 2008, 12:44:49 PM »

It may not be a crime as in criminal law, get arrested and go to jail...but it is a civil "crime" so to speak.  Trust me, if someone stamps a partial VIN on an engine that is not original to the car it is in, there is a cause of action and the person who was duped can take the seller to court and will WIN.  I know this FIRST HAND and can vouch to the fact that if you misrepresent an engine as original and you have a re-stamped engine in a car and try to pass it off as a numbers matching engine...you will lose and the penalty will not be small.  Trust me on this.  Jerry was involved in this case and his testimony would have been irrefutable.  God himself could not oppose Jerry when it comes to Camaro certification.
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« Reply #217 on: November 15, 2008, 07:19:11 PM »

Partial VIN's I believe are not used to prevent theft but to identify recovered bodies/ drivetrains that have had the VIN's removed.
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« Reply #218 on: November 25, 2008, 09:47:32 AM »

It may not be a crime as in criminal law, get arrested and go to jail...but it is a civil "crime" so to speak.  Trust me, if someone stamps a partial VIN on an engine that is not original to the car it is in, there is a cause of action and the person who was duped can take the seller to court and will WIN.  I know this FIRST HAND and can vouch to the fact that if you misrepresent an engine as original and you have a re-stamped engine in a car and try to pass it off as a numbers matching engine...you will lose and the penalty will not be small.  Trust me on this.  Jerry was involved in this case and his testimony would have been irrefutable.  God himself could not oppose Jerry when it comes to Camaro certification.

You are referring to fraudulent misrepresentation. The act of stamping numbers on a block is not illegal - it's when you sell it as something it's not that the line gets crossed. If someone sold a car and stated the block was re-stamped, no law has been broken.
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It's impossible to have a valid certificate of authenticity without verifying that it is not a rebody.
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« Reply #219 on: November 25, 2008, 01:45:34 PM »

Okay...let's say you re-stamp a VIN on an engine and then sell the car and you tell the buyer all about the re-stamping.  Then he sell's the car.  Maybe he is as honest and forthcoming as the guy who sells it to him, maybe he is not.  I am not going to say it will always happen, but I am willing to bet that in some cases, somewhere down the line, someone is going to buy that car and be mislead that the engine is "original".  There is now a cause of action and I can think of several counts that would apply.  The likelihood of being successful in court against the seller or one of the previous owners all the way back to the original stamper in increased dramatically.  A studious lawyer can go all the way down the line if need be and if the lineage can be traced, each owner may have some questions to answer in the form of subpoena.  If the information is what the lawyer is looking for, some of these previous owners may find themselves named as additional defendants if the lawyers so wishes and especially if there is deep pockets somewhere in this chain.  Everyone involved will be enticed to participate in a civil lawsuit to some degree.  They may not be found for any wrongdoing or have to pay money, but questions will be asked and answers can be compelled by the courts if the lawyer wants to go that far.  As for the criminal law and the illegality, I am not sure.  Again, an over zealous police officer could make a connection and start filing charges based on the VIN stamping and the circumstances.  It may not be against the  law per se, but the law is written vague for a reason and wiggle room is there to make any case.  For someone to say they are stamping a VIN on an engine purely for restoration is a stretch.  Maybe it is legal and maybe not.  It's up to the police officer to make a case and the state attorney to agree or not.  If you are going to use that argument, then what if I buy a dynacorn body and stamp a VIN on it purely for "restoration" purposes only and I am just "re-creating" what the factory did.  If I am a cop, and I can convince the state attorney you stamped that VIN, on any part of the car, in order to take advantage of someone or mislead someone and there is a victim, I can make a case.  You see, adding the VIN to the engine is a slippery slope.  Where does it end.  I am not stating that every engine re-stamping is illegal, but the likelihood of someone getting burned is greatly increased.  And if that person wanted to make a big deal out of it, he can.  It is only my opinion, but merely stamping codes and part numbers on an engine or any body part that would normally have it,  may be okay, but there seems to be a line that is crossed when you start stamping VINs or partial VINS on any part.  Again, just my opinion.   
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« Reply #220 on: November 25, 2008, 03:34:07 PM »


^^^Happens everyday actually. Probably happened with this BJ car. How in law, can the first person in the food chain be held responsible for the actions of the person down the line? He can't. He can be accused to be the person who initially lied/misled but that's how civil law works. I can sue you for slander/libel tomorrow and keep throwing lawyers at you until you run out of money trying to defend yourself. Doesn't mean you really did it. Welcome to the real world.
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« Reply #221 on: November 25, 2008, 03:58:39 PM »

Is there a lawyer in the house?  I don't see how re-stamping a VIN on anything can be anything but illegal. Otherwise, what's to stop someone from re-creating whatever vehicle they choose?

Jimmy V.
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« Reply #222 on: November 25, 2008, 10:25:14 PM »

I can't speak to every state as each state can pass laws so long as they are not inconsistent with federal law. In Kansas, it is not a crime (violation of a state statute identifying a criminal offense) to stamp a VIN on a block.  VINS on bodys, whether stamped or attached are another matter as federal laws apply - the VINS control title and can not be modified unless a salvage vehicle title is acquired in the case of a build and in that instance the title must reflect the fact.  Back to Kansas.  Stamping a VIN on a block is no different than creating a clone Z-28.  The crime occurs when the person with knowledge of the fact misrepresents the fact in the sale of the car.  However, this is rarely prosecuted as a crime because the trial of the case becomes a he said/she said liars contest and they just don't have the time or the resources to get involved in what would otherwise be a private action between two parties.  The common venue is civil court seeking damages or recission of the contract.  Most of the time, the action is brought pursuant a consumer protection act which provides for damages or civil penalties arising out of the fraud or misrepresentation - considered a "deceptive" or "unconconscionable" practice.  The consumer can even recover attorney fees. Like Kansas, most states districit attorneys have a consumer fraud division and that division can bring the civil action as if it were a crime on behalf of the buyer.  However, those offices generaly only prosecute those cases if more than one consumer is aggreived by a deceptive or uncosnciobale act of a seller.  Long and short. most states do not have laws prohibiting stamping VINs on component parts and the states attorneys are reluctant to get involved inthe prosecution of cases where it is done to perpetuate a fraud.
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« Reply #223 on: November 29, 2008, 02:05:19 PM »



   So any news or rumours regarding the green car from the BJ auction or has this whole issue fallen off the face of the earth? Seems that this thread has degenerated back to the same old discussion of how legal or ethical restamping blocks and shells are in various areas of the country rather than digging up or reporting any news of the actual deal that prompted this thread in the first place.
   I would have hoped that something would have come of it since in my humble opinion it sits as another of those benchmarks as to where the collector car hobby/business is headed and it sure doesn't look good if this thread and lack of news about that deal indicates the issue is all but covered up...
   I am or would not be surprised if this is 'swept under the rug' in time for the next BJ auction (don't really keep track of them so another may have passed in the meantime) but I wish and hope it isn't obviously. 
   The smug, self assurred demeanor of the BJ principals and how they stop bidding to browbeat bidders when they don't feel the bid price is sufficiently high enough on certain vehicles they apparently have connections to, has never sat well with me when I have watched and it is patently clear what they are doing.
   For that if for no other reason, I would have hoped that this green car story would have played out more and made more than just the buyer and seller responsible in this instance since they weren't the only ones who knew or were involved in this smelly deal as we all have heard.
   Actually, I guess there are other reasons I tune in occasionally - I'm also mildly curious of who will be the next person stupid enough to spend a ridiculous amount to get a car that matches his jacket (2 minutes of fame/in the spotlight and all that...) - Randy
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« Reply #224 on: November 29, 2008, 09:14:22 PM »

Randy, I would bet that the pricipals invovled with the car/sale etc. are keeping a lid on it now. Too much money and a reputation to uphold for the buyer and seller/restorer. Maybe lawyers are invovled as well.
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« Reply #225 on: December 04, 2008, 07:30:21 PM »

Here's the long and short of it.  If you are in the business of selling classic and collector cars and you sell a car that you represent as "numbers matching engine" and it has been restamped, whether your restamped it or it was like that when you got it, and the end buyer can get an "expert" to say that the engine was a restamp, you CAN be hailed into court under a civil action.  It does not matter if the seller is in one state and the buyer is in another.  Now ultimately, the plaintiff may win and he may not, it all depends on the judge and/or jury and the particulars of the law in the jurisdiciton and how convincing a lawyer is, and how the judge feels that day, and the alignment of the planets, etc and so forth.  But, if the buyer and his/her lawyer is motivated, than a lawsuit will be initiated.  THIS IS FACT.  In the end, regardless of who prevails, parties are going to pay legal fees and the lawyers on both sides win.  It's how the system is setup.   
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« Reply #226 on: March 14, 2009, 01:37:26 AM »

so is there any new news?
or is that a lump under the rug I see ?
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« Reply #227 on: March 14, 2009, 05:20:52 PM »

All I can say is wow! I'm Glad Canada has the GM Vintage service (although not a gaurantee...I know)....Just look at all the "Camaro" Forums....every member has an SS, RS, Z/28 etc etc....where did all the Coupes go? Too funny....I see more Z's and SS's today than I did 35 years ago...where did they all come from? Hmmmm. Keep up the Good Fight CRG.
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« Reply #228 on: March 18, 2009, 01:53:24 PM »

I need a beer after all this. Intense!
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Danny
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« Reply #229 on: March 18, 2009, 07:32:53 PM »

All I can say is wow! I'm Glad Canada has the GM Vintage service (although not a gaurantee...I know)....Just look at all the "Camaro" Forums....every member has an SS, RS, Z/28 etc etc....where did all the Coupes go? Too funny....I see more Z's and SS's today than I did 35 years ago...where did they all come from? Hmmmm. Keep up the Good Fight CRG.

I agree
It kinda dilutes the specialness for those that can document the originality of the vehicle. Though I would guess that most of the coupes have become modified while most Z28's, SS's and RS's are being kept closer to their original state.

I do know where a coupe is - it is across the street. The gentleman that owns it is planning on building it up big.
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« Reply #230 on: March 22, 2009, 04:55:25 PM »

no new news, i guess all the "black helicopters" flying overhead are for someone else !!
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