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Author Topic: 69' 302 CE numbers  (Read 6158 times)
Burntbunz
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« on: February 22, 2006, 10:00:42 PM »

Hi Everyone,

Anybody know what 16347 stamped in an 010 CE block under the starter flange and on each end of my original 186 heads decodes? The pad is stamped CE9B46015 and the date code looks like I 27 9.
 
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2013, 10:04:42 AM »

This is an old post I'm responding to, but I was searching for something and came across it...  Smiley

'I suspect that 16347 number stamped into the heads and block represent a 'customer number' from a machine shop doing work on the engine.'

I found interest in the CE9B46015 (date I 27 9) block as well, as I own a '69 Corvette unrestored original (40Kmiles) which got it's engine replaced under warranty within it's first few weeks of life.   It's a August 7, 1969 car with the CE engine notated:   CE9B44296 (date I 18 9), which is 9 days and 1719 CE blocks earlier.   

That's seems to be a LOT of CE replacement engines in only a bit over a week!

Gary / 69Z28-RS
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 10:59:46 AM »

There seems to be a lot of discussion about the CE numbers. I had always thought that after they went through all the A's the went to B. I just read some where that A was short block, and B was long block. Can anyone confirm this?
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2013, 01:20:50 PM »

My L78 CE97483 has no letter. Dated F119. Cast # 3969854.
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2013, 03:09:34 PM »

We dug out some original GM literature a few years ago, which addressed the way the CE numbers were assigned... I just have to recall where I stored it.   I *think* I remember that the letters were just another trip thru the numbers they allotted..  ie..  no letter, then A, then B...   ?  but I might be mis-remembering this.
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2013, 08:18:43 PM »

The A in the CE0A sequence is a code used at Flint to indicate the type of assembly built A=short block. The 010 block was used since that was the block in production at the time of replacement and matched your application. The sequence numbers at Flint started with 20000 placing yours as # 9422 in the sequence.  CE=Chevrolet Engine, 0=1970 production year, A=short block, 29422= sequence number 9422.

This was in response to the numbers I gave Pat about my CE engine.  B signified something like block with pistons and C was like just a bare block. A was a complete short block.
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2013, 09:23:04 PM »

A question concerning warranty replacement blocks.
 Did GM require a bare block replacement to originate through the sources in order to be stamped with the appropriate CE?C markings? What would prevent, or was it possible for a dealer to replace a bare block under warranty with maybe an unmarked bare block sitting in their parts inventory?
At the time did statutes require the replacement block to be stamped by the dealer's service department?
Thanks,
Bob
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JohnZ
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2013, 11:50:06 AM »

I've studied "CE" block stampings for many years, and have accumulated a sizable library of "CE" stamp images from Camaros and Corvettes while doing so. My research indicates that a letter ("A", "B", etc.) following the year of manufacture digit indicates a second ("A") or third ("B") trip through the originally-assigned block of "CE" numbers, and Flint V-8 was also later assigned a supplementary block of numbers (90000-99999) in addition to their original block of "CE" numbers (20000-49999).

The "CE" replacements were furnished as both short blocks and as "fitted" blocks (block and fitted pistons, no crank or rods), but the vast majority were short blocks; it was rare to blow one up and not damage the crank and rods.

The "CE" block in my '69 Z/28 was dealer-installed in June, 1970 (using one of its original 186 cylinder heads and one new replacement 186 head with screw-in studs and guide plates), with all the original bolt-on parts (intake and exhaust manifolds, A.I.R, alternator, distributor, etc.). It's stamped "CE0A96509", in the supplementary block of Flint numbers.
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 02:29:26 PM »

Thanks John...  for affirming my *memory*.. Smiley      on another auto board (Vettenet? or ?) several years ago, someone posted the original GM directive concerning the 'numbering/labeling' of replacement warranty blocks, and what you desribed is what I remembered it saying.. and tried to say myself earlier.. Smiley    somewhere, probably on an older computer disk, I saved that document.... but there's no telling how long long it would take me to find it..  IF that old computer still works..
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2013, 06:27:28 PM »

I've studied "CE" block stampings for many years, and have accumulated a sizable library of "CE" stamp images from Camaros and Corvettes while doing so. My research indicates that a letter ("A", "B", etc.) following the year of manufacture digit indicates a second ("A") or third ("B") trip through the originally-assigned block of "CE" numbers, and Flint V-8 was also later assigned a supplementary block of numbers (90000-99999) in addition to their original block of "CE" numbers (20000-49999).

The "CE" replacements were furnished as both short blocks and as "fitted" blocks (block and fitted pistons, no crank or rods), but the vast majority were short blocks; it was rare to blow one up and not damage the crank and rods.

The "CE" block in my '69 Z/28 was dealer-installed in June, 1970 (using one of its original 186 cylinder heads and one new replacement 186 head with screw-in studs and guide plates), with all the original bolt-on parts (intake and exhaust manifolds, A.I.R, alternator, distributor, etc.). It's stamped "CE0A96509", in the supplementary block of Flint numbers.
John, my 70 Z28 project has a ce block in it as well. I can send you pics if you need them it is stamped CE0A959 23. The dealer didn't even paint the short block when installed. It was cast E90. The car is an 04D car, so it didn't last long. It is stamped 5 70 by the starter. The orig 186 heads were used. The engine is at my engine builder and he states that it doesn't have floating wrist pins, and the cam is way bigger than it is supposed to be. It is a gm cam, and I don't believe that the engine was touched after the short block was replaced. The orig owner took the car off the road in 1977-78. It has not been driven since. Would the flint guys use what ever was on hand, or was this a Friday short block?
Buddy
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70 Z28 forrest green, green int, M40, bk vinyl roof PROJECT
99 SS hugger orange 6spd NO TTOPS bought new 1 of 54
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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2013, 12:02:48 PM »

I've studied "CE" block stampings for many years, and have accumulated a sizable library of "CE" stamp images from Camaros and Corvettes while doing so. My research indicates that a letter ("A", "B", etc.) following the year of manufacture digit indicates a second ("A") or third ("B") trip through the originally-assigned block of "CE" numbers, and Flint V-8 was also later assigned a supplementary block of numbers (90000-99999) in addition to their original block of "CE" numbers (20000-49999).

The "CE" replacements were furnished as both short blocks and as "fitted" blocks (block and fitted pistons, no crank or rods), but the vast majority were short blocks; it was rare to blow one up and not damage the crank and rods.

The "CE" block in my '69 Z/28 was dealer-installed in June, 1970 (using one of its original 186 cylinder heads and one new replacement 186 head with screw-in studs and guide plates), with all the original bolt-on parts (intake and exhaust manifolds, A.I.R, alternator, distributor, etc.). It's stamped "CE0A96509", in the supplementary block of Flint numbers.

John, my 70 Z28 project has a ce block in it as well. I can send you pics if you need them it is stamped CE0A959 23. The dealer didn't even paint the short block when installed. It was cast E90. The car is an 04D car, so it didn't last long. It is stamped 5 70 by the starter. The orig 186 heads were used. The engine is at my engine builder and he states that it doesn't have floating wrist pins, and the cam is way bigger than it is supposed to be. It is a gm cam, and I don't believe that the engine was touched after the short block was replaced. The orig owner took the car off the road in 1977-78. It has not been driven since. Would the flint guys use what ever was on hand, or was this a Friday short block?
Buddy

"CE" short blocks were ordered by part number, for each particular application - yours would have been the common LT-1 short block shared with the Corvette; most were built on weekends in batches, as they had to be handled manually onto pallets at the end of the engine assembly line with no heads, intake, or exhaust manifolds. The only GM solid-lifter cam "bigger" than the LT-1 was the "30-30" - what are the numbers cast into the cam core between the lobes?
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« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2013, 12:31:51 PM »

  Were CE blocks ordered to match the original application such as 2 bolt CE to replace a 2 bolt original vs. 4 bolt CE to replace a 4 bolt original block?
So far all CE blocks in general I have seen were all 4 bolts.

Mike
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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2013, 08:20:19 PM »

The four bolt ones were the ones that got beat on! John, I will make a call to my engine builder and get the numbers. Didn't the LT-1's have floating wrist pins like the 302's?
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« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2013, 07:58:03 PM »

Didn't the LT-1's have floating wrist pins like the 302's?

I don't recall offhand - I don't deal much with Corvettes built after 1967. :-)
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« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2013, 08:01:13 PM »

Didn't the LT-1's have floating wrist pins like the 302's?

I don't recall offhand - I don't deal much with Corvettes built after 1967. :-)

Nope, LT1 was pressed pin
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2013, 12:13:47 AM »

Didn't the LT-1's have floating wrist pins like the 302's?

I don't recall offhand - I don't deal much with Corvettes built after 1967. :-)

Nope, LT1 was pressed pin
Agree.....I have a CE LT1 short block manufactured in 1973 and it has pressed pins.
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Jerry G.

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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2013, 11:02:55 AM »

Thanks guys. I thought maybe the guys at the engine plant were having a liquid lunch that day!
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99 SS hugger orange 6spd NO TTOPS bought new 1 of 54
11 cts-v blk diamond  edition wagon 556hp sick!
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2013, 12:09:54 PM »

Gary if you ever find that GM Directive, I would be interested in seeing it.

From what I have seen, big blocks at Tonawanda generally did not receive a letter in the CE stamp, because fewer were produced and thus in general there was not a need to reuse the numbers.  There may be some cases where they were reused but I have not seen any.

Also from what I have seen, big blocks from Tonawanda received a stamp down on the pan rail near the oil filter area, which seems to be an assembly date stamp.  This would be something like T097 - T for Tonawanda, 09 for month (September) and 7 for last digit of year (1967 in this case).  I am looking for documentation of this.  I am only going off of what I could determine from the blocks that I have.
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Bryon
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2013, 05:41:04 PM »

Byron,
I found part of it, #2 letter...  haven't found #1 yet, if there is a #1...  it's a photograph of the letter, re-jpged to fit in the requirements here; hopefully it is legible.  It is dated 14Aug1967 (tonawonda)..
I'm sure there was another letter, because this one doesn't have all the information I recall on it....
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69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2013, 06:02:06 PM »

OK..  I found a bit more.   a #1 letter, but only the first page have I found so far..  posted here...
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69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2013, 07:40:37 PM »

 Interesting. Based on letter #1 mentioning the Georgia statutory requirements, I wonder now, if prior to this established practice to start for 1968, if there were engines and transmissions replace for warranty restamped possibly by the dealer with original numbers?
Especially so for years up to August 1967 for other GM cars.

Mike
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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2013, 09:43:50 PM »

Thanks Gary!  

What I find the most interesting in that Tonawanda letter is the part where is says...

It should be noted that the service identification number is required in addition to date stamp markings currently put on service assemblies.

I believe the "date stamp markings" are what referred to above as "something like T097 - T for Tonawanda, 09 for month (September) and 7 for last digit of year (1967 in this case)".

If you find any other documents which might clarify this, please post those too.

Bryon
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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2013, 11:35:40 PM »

I will Bryon.  I know I've seen/read additional GM letters re the CE marking requirement that originated in Aug/Sept 1967 for 68 amd subsequent models, but I haven't been able to find copies on my current computer.  I think I recall some 'back and forth' letters between the plants on how exactly to implement that order in that same time frame before they got it all ironed out.   I'm sure I saved them on whatever computer I was using at the time...  when I find additional info, I will post it here.
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69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
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« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2013, 07:00:34 PM »

Gary,

  What was the normal practice of post installation markings of warranty engine and transmissions (original parts with unique serial numbers) prior to this CE requirement listed in Aug/Sep of 67?

Thanks,
Mike
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« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2013, 11:39:03 PM »

Mike,

From the little I know, it may have varied with the car type/plant..  Either John Z or Bryon Miller will know the answer to this question better than I...
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69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
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« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2013, 12:00:46 PM »

Gary,

  What was the normal practice of post installation markings of warranty engine and transmissions (original parts with unique serial numbers) prior to this CE requirement listed in Aug/Sep of 67?

Thanks,
Mike


I'm sure there was a procedure issued for the installing dealer to stamp something on the pad, but I've never seen it, and apparently few dealers followed it. Most "CE" pads I've seen only have the engine plant "CE" sequence stamped. There were 6,000 Chevy dealers in those days, and few bothered with the little details. Prior to the "CE" program, warranty short blocks ("partial engines" or "fitted blocks") had blank pads.
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« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2013, 08:12:19 PM »

I agree with John completely. 

I have never seen anything other than the original CE stamp on the pad for the 68 model year and later. Dealers may have noted the CE assembly number on the warranty paperwork.  But that probably varied from one dealer to another.

Earlier pads were left blank.  But I am pretty sure the earlier blocks still received that assembly date stamp down on the pan rail/oil filter area.   

It has been a while since I have seen a blank pad warranty engine.

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« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2013, 09:07:26 PM »

 Thanks Gary, John and Bryon,

   Interesting about the CE history. I'm guessing with the growing popularity of high performance motors back in the day, engine and tranny damage became more frequent leading to more warranty fixes. So a  better way to track warranty was needed though it sounds like the Georgia statutory requirements played a major role in the CE policy change.
  Back to an earlier question, was there such a thing as a 2-bolt main CE block? I have only seen 4-bolt main blocks. I'm sure 2 bold mains must have failed at some time back then.

Thanks,
Mike
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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2013, 10:42:13 AM »

   Back to an earlier question, was there such a thing as a 2-bolt main CE block? I have only seen 4-bolt main blocks. I'm sure 2 bold mains must have failed at some time back then.

Thanks,
Mike

Yes. "CE" blocks were intended to duplicate the original application's configuration, and were furnished as such; 2-bolt blocks were the most common, but there were 4-bolts as well.
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« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2013, 10:04:19 PM »

Yes, 2 bolt and 4 bolt CE blocks.  I have one 4 bolt CE 427, one 4 bolt CE 396/402, several 2 bolt CE v396s, one 2 bolt CE 402, one 2 bolt CE 454.
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