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Author Topic: One pricey '68 Z/28...  (Read 9057 times)
1968RSZ28
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« on: February 12, 2008, 12:55:48 AM »

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-CAMARO-Z28-HEMI-PROTOTYPE-CROSSRAM-SMOKEY-YUNICK_W0QQitemZ220200958203QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220200958203

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Paul
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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2008, 02:10:08 AM »

I like it !! If there is indesputible documentation backing up the that this conversion was done at the dealership back in the day and that Smokey was in on it then OK.. that takes the value way up . Otherwise I am not sure how you price that car. I was not sure the 4 wheel disc was available in any form in 1968 but I don't know much about 69's and even less about 68's so could be Smiley  I think the car is pretty badass though
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lakeholme
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« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2008, 08:54:36 AM »

It's an interesting car... with interesting provenace... and an interesting price...   Shocked

Does it mark the tipping point where most of us will no longer be able to afford a first gen Camaro?  Huh Huh Huh

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Phillip
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« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2008, 12:15:12 PM »

I remember reading that the 302 Hemi experiment was not too successful

Jimmy V.
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Jimmy V.
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« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2008, 08:20:25 PM »

Wasn't this car at Floyd Garret's invitational show last summer?
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Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new
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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2008, 08:32:39 PM »

In rereading the discription it says maybe the rarest  Z-28. I guess one of one would be rare, but I'd rather have the convetible Z-28, also one of one.
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2008, 12:45:59 AM »

I have a question that I will say is in ignorance.  Why does it have 69 tailpipes and 67 hubcaps?  Is that the way this car came or what?
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68Z28
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2008, 01:13:38 PM »

The car is mostly hype and has been discussed on other sites.

The Hemi 302 was a failed engineering exercise at Chevrolet. Smokey Yunick had a long history of working with Chevrolet Engineering so the project was transferred to him. He could not make any more power with it than a stock 302. Development ended and all the parts sat in his shop for years, later sold at his auction in the '90s. The Hemi 302 was never sold to the public or raced. It made no more power than the production 302. Why people continue to genuflect in its presence I do not know.
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john302
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2008, 09:27:13 PM »

    Very true William. 1968 z/28s are my favorite cars I would no interest in this car at all. I would much rather have an original untouched z with owner history and docs.
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vtfb68
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2008, 10:06:57 PM »

William,
that is the story i have always understood to be true. If these people can proved to be commiting fraud, they should sent to jail and prostuted!
                                                                                    VT
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1968RSZ28
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« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2008, 04:45:47 PM »

Car sold 2-23-08 for $250,000.00 to "letubu99" on Ebay.

Paul
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RickH
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« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2008, 08:08:32 PM »

For that much money and hype you would think that the car would be absolutely correct. Incorrect center caps, shocks and exhaust as well as a bunch of other small stuff just doesn't cut with me. Should have been 100% correct. The one inch gap in the $10 repop trunk weatherstrip looks shoddy. It's also in the wrong spot.
A buyer with zero feedback that just signed up today makes me believe the car did not go to a legit buyer. Look for it again real soon.

Rick H.

 
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2008, 10:05:54 AM »

I deal with this crap on a daily basis while on the road. 

Jerry
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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2008, 11:58:17 AM »

You must see some real shoddy workmanship  in your travels
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nuch_ss396
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« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2008, 12:03:40 PM »

This is not the only hemi-head 302 in existence.  Jim @ HeartBeatCity has at least one that I know of.

And yes, the hemi-head 302 was one of many failed programs at Chevrolet, or any car maker for that matter.  
I'm with William - who cares!  

I love my Camaro, but things are just getting out of control.  Using a more simplistic example, the dealership where
my SS Camaro was purchased installed hood pins at the original buyers request.  I get beat up all the time about them.  
Why should a dealership installed 302 be any different?

Steve
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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2008, 02:46:17 AM »

Car sold 2-23-08 for $250,000.00 to "letubu99" on Ebay.

Paul


Buyer has a (0) transaction rating.....  still think it is a neat car .
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Bjv69ss
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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2008, 02:59:35 PM »

In rereading the discription it says maybe the rarest  Z-28. I guess one of one would be rare, but I'd rather have the convetible Z-28, also one of one.

There was a convertible Z28?  Why only one
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1968RSZ28
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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2008, 05:04:50 PM »

There was a convertible Z28?  Why only one

"The RAREST Camaro of them all!! The ONLY First Generation Camaro Z/28 CONVERTIBLE ever maunufactured! It was built for Chevrolet General Manager Pete Estes on July 15, 1968. Options included a Folding Rear Seat, Auxiliary Console-Mounted Instruments, Auxiliary Lighting, Power Windows, Remote Outside Mirror, Custom Seat Belts, Performance Suspension Package, Four-Wheel Disc Brakes, Blue Light Stereo System (A 1969 Option), Positraction, 1969 Prototype Fiberglass Hood, Cross-Ram Intake and Powder Coated Factory Headers! The car was delivered to Mr. Estes through Bill Markley Chevrolet in Detroit, whereupon the car was used as Mr. Estes daily transportation until December 17, 1968. On that day, it was officially sold to its first owner, T.H. Standen. Mr. Standen sold the car to Vern Nye, another GM employee, only two years later, in whose hands it remained for nearly 20 years. Only recently was the car made known to the general public. So how did this car come to be built at all? According to Jim Mattison, who worked in the Special Projects Division at the time, they needed approval to build the Z/28 for the general public instead of trying to build just enough to homologate for SCCA racing. They figured that if Pete Estes, the Chevrolet General Manager, drove a Z/28 he would like it enough to approve the plan. The problem was that Estes was a Convertible freak, and he wouldn't drive anything else. They could give him a regular Z/28 Coupe but it would probably just sit in the company garage. They decided the only solution was to build a Convertible Z/28 and give that to Estes. The result - Estes drove the car, loved it, and we got the Z/28! This car recently sold for OVER ONE MILLION DOLLARS!"

Paul

P.S. Thanks Ed!
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lakeholme
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« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2008, 07:08:23 PM »

More pics here:
http://www.randworkman.com/featured_event/auction/details.php?id=8
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Phillip
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« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2008, 11:38:45 PM »

  In the July 1990 issue of "Musclecars of the 60s/70s" is an article done on a '69 Z/28 with this engine also worked on by Smokey, who is quoted in an interview. According to Smokey the heads were experimental, but he says 30-40 of the special engines were built, not just a few. It had a stock 302 bottom-end and the heads had to fit the existing tooling. The problem was in the ports according to the article--the 5-bolt head pattern choked the exhaust ports and the engine ran out of power at high rpm. Said Smokey when asked why the project was abandoned he replied, "I just couldn't do it. I gave it everything I had. The engines will do all right on the highway, they'll pull fine up to 6500rpm. But after that, they start to lose."  "Maybe God could have done something with it, but I told them that I couldn't do anything with it." Smokey called the whole thing "a silly exercise."
  There were also rumors that Penske tested some of these engines. 
 The article says the project got underway in '67 or '68, so the eBay car could be one I suppose. I was kind of put off by the small rallye centers and out-the-back exhaust pipes, too. I also noticed the alternator is on the wrong side. But like a Yenko, who knows what exact equipment was put on them at the dealer? I'm also curious why the odometer shows over 50k miles if the car has never been licensed. My 2 cents.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 11:45:36 PM by hotrod68 » Logged

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JoeC
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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2008, 06:28:01 AM »

I donít see any real history of the car tied to Smokey Yunick.

It is more of a novelty car with a valuable collector item engine.

Smokey did have at least 2 1968 Camaro race cars he built mostly for testing.  I do not think he won a race with them but did race them and set speed records at Bonneville with both a 302 and 396.

When Bunkie Knudsen quit GM and went to Ford, he hired Smokey to work on the prototype Boss Mustangs in 1969. Smokey sold one 68 Camaro to Don Yenko and one to another well known racer.
Don Yenko won the 1969 Citrus 250 at Daytona in Smokeys old Camaro and other races and ran it in some Trans Am races in 1969.
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william
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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2008, 01:15:56 PM »

... So how did this car come to be built at all? According to Jim Mattison, who worked in the Special Projects Division at the time, they needed approval to build the Z/28 for the general public instead of trying to build just enough to homologate for SCCA racing. They figured that if Pete Estes, the Chevrolet General Manager, drove a Z/28 he would like it enough to approve the plan. The problem was that Estes was a Convertible freak, and he wouldn't drive anything else. They could give him a regular Z/28 Coupe but it would probably just sit in the company garage. They decided the only solution was to build a Convertible Z/28 and give that to Estes. The result - Estes drove the car, loved it, and we got the Z/28! This car recently sold for OVER ONE MILLION DOLLARS!"


More fairy tales.

By the time the Estes Z/28 convertible was built - July 1968 - Chevrolet had already produced 602 1967 Z/28s and nearly all of the 7,200 or so '68s.

So exactly what needed "approval" ?

Methinks a General Manager can have anything he wants. Estes also had a fully optioned 68 SS-RS 396 convert that still exists.
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Bjv69ss
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« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2008, 05:19:42 PM »

I was talking to one of the guys that I deliver to today about Camaros and this thread got into the conversation.  He told me that a friend of his bought a 69 Boss Mustang  when they were in high school back in 1975 for $500.00.  Oddly enough the car stayed in his posesion all these years.  He finally got to restore it and had it appraised. It tipped the scale  $330,000.00.  It is one of 500 Hemi head 429 cars .  What a find.  He had no Idea at the time.
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« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2008, 11:33:19 PM »

  Joe--interestingly enough, Smokey mentioned his stint at Ford in the article when talking about the Hemi 302 engine;
  "When Chevrolet showed me the blueprints I didn't like it at all, and managed to stay away from (the project)." "I went to Ford for a while, and when I came back to Chevrolet, they made me promise to work on it."
  Yunick said his shop went through 8 blocks and 40 heads while thrashing the engines. According to the article, 3 or 4 of the engines remained. Carl Dwiggins bought one of them at Smokey's auction and had the '69 Z built with it as an admitted phantom--Smokey never had anything to do with the car.
  My guess is the eBay '68 is a fake as well. But nonetheless, it's a darn nice car and a a tribute to the old factory 'back door' days when all kinds of shenanigans went on. At least Dwiggins was honest about it.
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JoeC
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« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2008, 08:46:02 AM »

On the 68 convertible Z...

In the early 80s Vince Piggins gave some interviews about the Z/28 project and I believe that info about the convertible Z came from him.

The way I remember the story was that they needed some type of approval from Estes to build the Z. The first approval was on the 283 prototype coupe in late 66.
The convertible Z came later when they wanted approval from Estes to expand marketing on the 69 Z?

Somthing must have happened since the Z went from combined sales of less then 8,000 the first two years, to more than 19,000 Z/28s in 1969.

I am going by memory here and would have to dig out the articles to see exactly what Vince said.

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maroman
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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2008, 06:30:19 PM »

When was the convertible sold for a million?  Sounds like a bargain compared to the Cuda  hemi convertibles sold at BJ.  3 years ago I was told it would take 4 million to buy it.
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Doug  '67 RS/SS 396 auto I know the car since new
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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2008, 07:01:02 PM »

Apparently, Estes had already driven a Z during development; and yes, Piggins certainly gets credit for the Z.
Look here:
http://www.67z28.com/history.htm

My guess is William is right... If Estes wanted a convertible, he got it.
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Phillip
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« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2008, 11:11:38 PM »

My guess is the Z sales went ballistic in '69 because it was a long model year..and Roger Penske won 10 of 13 Trans-Am races in a '68 Z in 1968 and dominated the SCCA circuit. The Z/28s kicked the Mustangs' asses on the track and on the street... "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday, and kick the crap out of your opponent on the street" sold the Zs--not what the Chevy promotions board did. Word of mouth and track performance sold the cars, even when Chevy was "officially" not in racing--whch is amazing since the Z/28 never got a name badge until mid'-68 and the COPOs were never promoted by GM. All the credit in the world goes to those who gave the green light to build the cars and thrash the special engines--but it was the racing victories that got the attention, and the would-be street heroes who bought them, raced them, and love them to this day.
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1968RSZ28
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« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2008, 11:17:44 PM »

My guess is the Z sales went ballistic in '69 because it was a long model year..and Roger Penske won 10 of 13 Trans-Am races in a '68 Z in 1968 and dominated the SCCA circuit. The Z/28s kicked the Mustangs' asses on the track and on the street... "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday, and kick the crap out of your opponent on the street" sold the Zs--not what the Chevy promotions board did. Word of mouth and track performance sold the cars, even when Chevy was "officially" not in racing--whch is amazing since the Z/28 never got a name badge until mid'-68 and the COPOs were never promoted by GM. All the credit in the world goes to those who gave the green light to build the cars and thrash the special engines--but it was the racing victories that got the attention, and the would-be street heroes who bought them, raced them, and love them to this day.

I agree, God Bless the 1968 Z/28!!!!      Grin

Paul
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wtexz10
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« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2008, 01:49:17 AM »

Amen to loving the 68 Z/28.  Take a look on the home page. That's my 68 in 1971.  My first love and boy do I miss her.

Still my favorite color, Lemans Blue.

Kris

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1968RSZ28
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« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2008, 11:56:42 AM »

Amen to loving the 68 Z/28.  Take a look on the home page. That's my 68 in 1971.  My first love and boy do I miss her.

Very cool Kris!  Do you know where she is today?

Paul
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« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2008, 11:47:52 PM »

Paul,

I wish I did.  I do have the VIN.  Maybe I should post it here and see if anyone knows where it is.  I also have the original bill of sale.

When I got it it had 302 emblem but know Z/28 emblems.  I could not figure out why, until I found the CRG.  The car was titled as a 302 sport coupe.  First think I did was go to my Chevy dealer and purchase emblem.  The photo shows the car with Z/28 emblems.  I still have the 302 emblems in my tool box.

The car was traded in on a 73 Vega GT.  I got a princely sum of $650 for a trade.  I've been kicking myself ever since.  I really love that car.

Kris

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1968RSZ28
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« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2008, 03:09:54 PM »

I do have the VIN.  Maybe I should post it here and see if anyone knows where it is.  I also have the original bill of sale.

Kris -

Give it a try!  Post the original bill of sale in the 68 Orphans section...  http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?board=12.0

The car was traded in on a 73 Vega GT.  I got a princely sum of $650 for a trade.  I've been kicking myself ever since.  I really love that car.

 Tongue     Tongue     Tongue     Cry

Paul
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