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Author Topic: 1967 camaro manual disc master cylinder  (Read 8575 times)
red67l78
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« on: February 05, 2008, 10:28:20 PM »

I just noticed on CRG under chassis.  When you look at the info about the master cylinder the info is incorrect.  It states that 67 and 68 camaro's used the same master cylinder for disc brakes.  Manual disc was a 1 year only option!  Also i think there were 2 types of master cylinders used in 67.  One for manual disc brakes and the other for power disc brakes.  Manual had a 1 inch bore and power had a 1 1/8 bore.  These were not interchangable.  They are coded differently too.  Casting number for manual disc is #5459467
Looking at the info and reading throught it it never talks about the different casting number. The picture is misleading too by showing the top bleeders that are not on the manual disc MC.   What i am saying is there is quite a bit of difference between these 2 systems and info needs updated.  The AD and WT is there but more is needed to put it all together
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KurtS
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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2008, 04:46:57 PM »

When you look at the info about the master cylinder the info is incorrect.  It states that 67 and 68 camaro's used the same master cylinder for disc brakes.  Manual disc was a 1 year only option! 
I'm not quite sure of your point here. 67 and 68 power disc brakes certainly did use the same master cyl casting and part number. I'll talk about 67 man discs below.

The prior section, http://www.camaros.org/suspen.shtml#Brakes, the 67 section states: Power assist was not required with the front disc brakes.

Quote
Also i think there were 2 types of master cylinders used in 67.  One for manual disc brakes and the other for power disc brakes.  Manual had a 1 inch bore and power had a 1 1/8 bore.  These were not interchangable.  They are coded differently too. 
Yes, that is true. And it shows in the table, including the bore dimensions.

Quote
Casting number for manual disc is #5459467
Looking at the info and reading throught it it never talks about the different casting number. The picture is misleading too by showing the top bleeders that are not on the manual disc MC.   What i am saying is there is quite a bit of difference between these 2 systems and info needs updated.  The AD and WT is there but more is needed to put it all together
That's because we've never seen that casting # before. The 67 manual disc AD masters I've seen used the 5460346 casting.

If you don't like the picture, you can ask GM to change their service documentation. That's their drawing and it covered all applications.


Re-read the whole section. I don't think there anything that is incorrect other than possibly a new casting # for the 67 manual disc. Let's see if we can find a few more cars to verify that useage and then we can update the page.

Can you post some pictures of your master cyl?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 04:52:23 PM by KurtS » Logged

Kurt S
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red67l78
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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2008, 08:42:23 PM »

I guess my problem is this.  I have seen 5 or 6 other cars with the exact system and numbers and are original and nobody can put it down.  This is been going on for years and it keeps coming up over and over again.  I actually have a spair M/C  for how rare this is.  All the cars were SS 396 L78 camaro's.  The assembly instruction book i have shows the exact way my car is for the J52 option with out power and does not show bleeders.   I have been to Canada and as far as Missiorri  all are the same. On one message board about this was info about how many rings are on the slave cylinder inside and shows 6 for AD in a book  and when i took mine apart it has 6 rings on slave cylinder.  There also was a indiviual that wrote in and he has the L78 and had the same M/C.  I have owned my car for 23 years and nouthing with brakes has changed.  3 cars were July and 2 cars were june . 1 car i never was able to get date.
I just found another car yesterday and am working on getting info on it. This is what starting me going with this again.  The master cylinder sticks out like a sore thumb to me.  I have been looking at this for 12 to 15 years along with my brother and this is very rare to see on a camaro.
I would like to see a manual disc brake M/C with the AD stamped on the front that has bleeders!!  Too me those would be rarer than this because i have never seen another camaro that had manual disc with any other type M/C than the one we are discussing.
I don't mean to be short but this is info that needs to be posted.
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red67l78
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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2008, 08:56:55 PM »

I have the M/C and the inner parts but don't know how to post pics for this site?  Can some one help me
Also the hold down clips for the top are a little shorter than normal too.
Charlie
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KurtS
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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2008, 01:41:12 AM »

Quote
This is been going on for years and it keeps coming up over and over again.
Really? I think this is the only site that even has info on manual discs and the AD code.
I've never seen this discussed anywhere. Doing a search finds that it has popped up twice on the forums on camaros.net.
It's not a big deal to update the page with new info.  And noone is putting it down, but our research and information is based on factual evidence, tied to VIN's.

The only potential issue on the brake page is the casting # for 67 manual discs. Bleeders were never even mentioned in the article and, like I said, that's GM's own sketch. They didn't make sketches for every version of components.
I can add a note about the bleeders when the time comes. I bet they weren't needed because the master sits more level without the booster. Hadn't thought of that....

Click 'Reply' and then hit the Addition Options button and you can add pictures. Also I'd like to chat with you via email about the details of some of these cars.  Not a common setup, but we've seen it on several cars, include several 327 cars.

We need to find more cars with J52 from earlier in the year to confirm the casting useage is for the whole year. I just found an 11E car that's a solid datapoint.
Anyone else have a manual disc 67 that can help with some info?

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Kurt S
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red67l78
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2008, 07:04:17 AM »

I think your right about the M/C being level and bleeders not needed.  I have rebuilt mine and did not need to bleed the M/C.  I will get picks loaded tonight.  The jullian date i think would be helpful on date usage.  People can use a mirror on there car to get this.  One of mine has  87  the other i will get later.  I would like to see pics from someone with the #5460346 M/C  with AD and  bleeders too.
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red67l78
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2008, 07:30:39 AM »

You did find the post from April 5  2002. on camaro.net about this subject?
I guess a question i have, is this M/C that rare that people don't no its there. 
The camaro guy i ran across 2 days ago was told by a camaro go roe that he had the wrong M/C on his car and gave him a new one like the one you were discribing.
I told the guy i would like his old one.  This guys car was a Nov. car SS/RS 350 camaro but have not dug that far into  verify anything yet.  He,s redueing car.  What i want is the Jullian date of his M/C   His brakes have been changed somewhat and don't no to what entent yet.
Charlie
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KurtS
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2008, 01:59:54 PM »

I know I don't have pics of a 346 AD master. I had done a cursory look into AD masters and that's what I had found and I think it was wrong. Smiley

I don't think it's super rare, just that most people weren't even aware there was a difference so they didn't notice.
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Kurt S
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2008, 08:43:58 PM »

Anyone else have a manual disc 67 that can help with some info?
I have a 67 11E LOS car with manual disc brakes. I have owned the car for 22 years and it has been in the family for 35 years. I believe the MC is original. It has an AD code and a 5459467 casting number.

It's tough to get a clear picture of the numbers on the bottom of the MC. Here is the best I could get.


I removed the hold off valve a few years ago when it gave me some trouble. I really need to rebuild it and put it back on.
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Steve
red67l78
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2008, 11:10:44 PM »

Thats the one i have. Thank you for posting it. This is the one i have been trying to get posted on the web site to clear up this misunderstanding of a manual disc brake M/C  for 67 camaro.  That is the correct casting number too!!
Is there anyway you can see what the Jullian date is on the bottom?  If we can get it being used back that far then i would say this should be made the correct one for camaro application. 
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red67l78
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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2008, 12:18:38 AM »

Here are some pics.  The bottom starts with the casting number then one inch symbol then jullian date and then D 7
                        5459467    1"       87        D 7
The rear bowl has the relief valve in the line connection hole
The  AD on front pad.
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red67l78
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2008, 12:28:42 AM »

This is the pic of inside componets and you will notice the 6 rings as the book stated. From the top view you see both bowls are equal and there is a little screw that goes in the front bowl to hold the 1st piston in the front of the bore of cylinder.  Any other pics let me no. If you need a pic of the one in my car with the round proportioning valve let me no.  Also the hold down clips are shorter than the normal ones that you get in stores.
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Farm Boy
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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2008, 01:07:03 AM »

I think its:         5459467   1"     62     D2

But it could be:  5459467   1     262 or 362    D7

The cast numbers are hard to read with a mirror.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 01:13:54 AM by Farm Boy » Logged

Steve
red67l78
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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2008, 08:40:04 AM »

I would say yours probably is 262 for the 262th day of 1966 for your Nov. car.  Casted around the 9th month.
You could try some chalk along bottom too.  But i think with your help this will prove this was used at beginning of production and throught out.  The cars i have seen are later until this last car i just found and it happens to be a Nov. car too.  But really have not done anything with this new found car yet.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 08:46:23 AM by red67l78 » Logged
red67l78
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« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2008, 08:51:45 AM »

Just to let you no they have rebuild kits for your valve you took off.  If i remember right it was 30 for kit, 70 for if they rebuid it and 100 for new one.
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KurtS
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2008, 12:01:04 PM »

Thanks Steve! You were the one 11E car that I mentioned above.
Great overall pic that shows how that master differs!

Charlie,
Thanks for the detail pics.

We still should have some more data - two solid datapoints does not make bulletproof data. Smiley
I've started to edit the page - I'm thinking about the pics right now....

Kurt
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Kurt S
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red67l78
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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2008, 12:24:14 PM »

Hey kurt as soon as i get the other info about this new Nov. car i will submit info.  I just remember i got another pic with this setup but your site can't handle the size. This is from a different car too.  And if there is another angle you want let me no. There is another casting mark on the back side that resembles the size of a stick of gum. The side between the engine and M/C.
Charlie
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YENKOL88
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2008, 04:56:59 PM »

If it helps my 4k- car built 05D has a master cylinder 5459467 (the 6 looks like a S), also cast is 1" with a cast date of 10 D 7. I know of another 67 4k- built in July with manual disk also, don't know his casting numbers though. Grin
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red67l78
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2008, 08:49:27 PM »

I honestly believe that chevy recomended this manual disc for 4K cars sometime during production.  I have owned my car for 23 years and out of all the camaro's i have seen over the years the only ones i have ever seen were 4K cars with this setup.  I am talking about the percentage of 4K cars compared to all other camaro's.  Z28 cars were not involved with this either.  So the research is not there in this car.  I am thinking if someone special ordered a car then that was done . But normal production 4K car i think came with this setup.(option)  The first car mentioned with this is above with a sb engine. First i ever heard of. 
YENKOL88 are you saying that your jullian date is 10 ?
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red67l78
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2008, 09:15:08 PM »

YENKOL88
Looking at the post i am on on camaro.net  there is a guy with 4K car O5D date and has the exact numbers as you do.
We all need to stay with this until CRG changes the info on it's site.  This is correct for all camaro people!!!
Anybody else with info please help.
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KurtS
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2008, 01:00:45 AM »

Looks like YenkoL88 and 06A are the same person. That's why the #'s are the same.
Welcome onboard!


Charlie,
We've seen the manual discs on everything from L6 cars to 327's to SS's. Most are on L48's (SS350) (almost a magnitude more than on L78's). Which makes sense, there's a lot more L48's than there are L78's.

We all need to stay with this until CRG changes the info on it's site.  This is correct for all camaro people!!!
Umm, you sound like you are trying to fight city hall. We're not like that here.
Did you read my post on the 8th?
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Kurt S
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red67l78
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2008, 08:14:27 AM »

If people have seen so many cars then why has this info not been posted yet. If i am reading you right you were saying that it was there but people really did not no it was different?  And yes i have seen the posting on the 8th but i was not sure where you were going with it? SORRY . I did not no YENKOL88 was the the same guy but i am trying to get people going on this to help "all' of us camaro guys out.  I am sorry if i pushed
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YENKOL88
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2008, 11:09:12 AM »

Yep got a couple of cars, but this one has the AD stamped manual cylinder, A and D look stamped individually, and bounced cuz you can faintly see the rehits on the A. I could send a digital pic as we are cleaning it all up, the date looks like 10 D 7.......I assume april 10, 1967 for a late May car. Maybe Joe can chime in on his manual disk 4k- also. I think manual disk is just a regular option that saved weight from a power set up for drag racing and at the same time stopped the car better than drums when racing. No big deal really. I heard a number of something like 200+ 67s getting the option.
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red67l78
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2008, 01:56:41 PM »

The one on my July car has 318 for jullian date.  The other M/C i have has 87 for jullian date.  I would say that the D7 does not mean April.  I think yours might be Jan. 10 . Everyone i have seen has the D7 on them.  I am thinking your way on the disc usage for these cars, also thinking the lack of vacumme when racing.
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YENKOL88
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2008, 02:13:46 PM »

Thanks for the decode on the date. Are any stamped differently if they came w/ the metallic pads?
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x77-69z28
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2008, 02:56:52 PM »

kurt, my 12d 67 rs-ss has the 467 master with manual discs, the AD stamp and a julian date of 315. it is original to the car. not sure if you are looking for more manual disc cars.
buddy
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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2008, 05:43:53 PM »

There was a whole lot more than 200, seeing that the database has more than 200 of them in it! Over 100 of those have docs. That 200 number is for J65, http://www.camaros.org/suspen.shtml#Brakes.

Not a total SWAG, but looking only at documented ones versus the rest of the documented population came out to a little more than 3%, so maybe 3000-6000?

Buddy,
Thanks for the data!

L88,
Nope, metallic pads wouldn't have affected the codes. But J56 was only available on Z28's.

Charley,
There's a difference between having data on the vehicle and having actual data on components. I personally don't watch 67's that much, never noticed the difference. Smiley
If you don't know what I mean when I post something, just ask.

I've finished the editing of the page (and did a bunch of other changes). Should be online soon.

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Kurt S
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« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2008, 09:59:41 AM »

I would say that the D7 does not mean April. 

The D7 is a foundry pattern number, not a date.
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« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2008, 05:10:45 PM »

I updated http://www.camaros.org/suspen.shtml#Brakecomp.
It has the the updated master cyl casting # for manual disc and Steve's pic. I also added info on the rear proportioning valve, steering info, and spring application data on that page.
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Kurt S
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