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Author Topic: 124379N561026 in database??  (Read 6945 times)
Iluv69s
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« on: January 19, 2008, 02:14:19 PM »

just looked at 69 Z for sale...any info on car?? Im suspicious...Thanks
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KurtS
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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2008, 05:08:35 PM »

No, nothing on that car.
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Kurt S
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Iluv69s
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« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2008, 07:31:10 PM »

Thanks Kurt,

   well..this will tell me alot... I got a pic!!  I'm curious what you think about the tag....  does it line up with the vin???

 I'm no expert on these thats for sure...  Thanks again
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RamAirDave
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« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2008, 09:00:38 PM »

I'd say the VIN is okay for that tag date.

...But the tag is fake.
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2008, 11:03:00 PM »

Yes, this is a fake tag for sure,

Jerry
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Iluv69s
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« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2008, 05:16:25 AM »

I must be getting better at this...I thought it looked bogus...and the rivets were the first giveaway...ita amazing because the owner is supposed to show me the original vin stamped DZ block and trans this week...I guess maybe its a real car that somone changed the tag back in the day?? I really dont believe the current owner of the car has a a clue about fake trim tags...

well, if nothing else. heres one for the database of 'bogus' cars.... Did they even have x-codes at this period of time?   Thanks again CRG!!
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tom
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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2008, 07:08:53 AM »

When you go to see the block and trans try to get pictures.

Tom
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Iluv69s
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2008, 12:32:28 PM »

sure will try to take some pics...the owner wasnt so keen on takin pics, but he did not protest when i insisted...I think he is more paranoid about getting ripped off tahn anything...apparently he has a rather large collection of parts too, so I really dont blame him......but Ill see what i can do...

  Thanks again guys...
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ko-lek-tor
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2013, 10:31:02 AM »

Thought someone may want to know the latest morph on this:   http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-SS-350-4-Spd-Hugger-Orange-Project-Real-SS-80-Photos-/251358325302?forcerrptr=true&item=251358325302&pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3a861faa36&nma=true&si=mL3Be0Bc6FtgpH9K6tPO%252FAAtGqk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
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1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2013, 11:12:49 AM »

Biggest brass cujones I have read about lately - man oh man, that's brazen. People apparently don't think about e-files and memories.
Same guy, or different owner ?

Regards,
Steve
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2013, 01:19:44 PM »

Yeah that is pretty bad...  What is this world coming to...  Sad.. Sad
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Darrell Cook

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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2013, 04:20:46 PM »

 That is not the same tag from the old thread to the new one. The numbers stamped are but the tag isn't.

Mike
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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2013, 07:17:34 PM »

That is not the same tag from the old thread to the new one. The numbers stamped are but the tag isn't.

Mike
Agreed, doesn't look to be the same tag.  Am I correct, the car should have a Black Vinyl top?  Sure doesn't show any signs.  And I didn't see any of the trim in the spare parts.
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1967 Camaro  LOS  11A
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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2013, 09:52:42 PM »

That is not the same tag from the old thread to the new one. The numbers stamped are but the tag isn't.

Mike

I agree it's not the same tag - that's the point. If this is the same owner as the car in the 2008 thread (that's why I asked if it was), it's obvious he had a new X77 tag made using the X55 tag info - maybe because he had a 386 block to go with the car originally, which would work with a 12B X77. Shame on him for a flagrant foul here - 
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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2013, 11:16:03 PM »

In contact with the NEW owner. He just bought it 2 months ago. So no, it's not the same guy. Get this, in the bin of parts he got the X77 tag. More to come.. Danny
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MyRed67
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2013, 12:13:49 AM »

So he's got both tags?Huh?  Then he has to know that at least one of them can't be correct.
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2013, 03:07:00 PM »

Here is his response...  The story seems to be changing a little.

   Sorry to hear about the food poisoning! The camaro isn't for sale. I did recently sell it to someone on eBay, but I noticed the cowl tag didn't seam to be fastened correctly like from the factory. So, I told him that I wouldn't feel comfortable selling the 69 as a true x55 car. After that I started to dissect the car and all the other parts I got with it like extra heads and intake. Thats when I recognized the vin matches the trans, engine, and hidden vin spots. The engine has the matching vin, DZ code, Z heads, & z intake. Then when I found the x77 cowl tag and put everything else together I thought that this is a real Z. I'm confused and going back to the person who sold it to me. I'm confused as hell. I wish there were other ways to tell what this camaro is?
Thanks again,

 
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KurtS
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2013, 04:34:42 PM »

I want to know what the axle code is.....

Car is not a Z.
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Kurt S
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2013, 06:06:39 PM »

Tag from the 2008 post and the X77 tag. Subtle differences in font, but the obvious Mongolian is the change from X77 to X55 or vice versa somewhere along the line. What state did it end up in ? The car belongs in a Transformers movie.

Regards,
Steve
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1968 Z28 BRG/W
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2013, 09:16:52 PM »

Are the experts of the opinion that the X55 tag is genuine?
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Tim - New South Wales, Australia
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2013, 11:52:49 PM »

So the current owner believes he bought a 'fake' SS, that was originally a real Z28 car?   ONE or BOTH of those two tags has to be fake, as they have the same BDY number....
Maybe someone got a deal on two fake tags??  Keeping his options open?  Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2013, 07:52:16 AM »

Both tags are fake.  Just my $0.02
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Darrell Cook

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1968 Matador Red Z28
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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2013, 11:31:29 AM »

I told him I didn't think it was a real Z/28, and that I had been in touch with some experts, and they seem to also think the same. Here is his latest reply...     

    Haven't checked behind the heater box. The partial vin on cowl, vin plate, engine, and tranny all match. Can you tell me what is telling you that this is not a real Z/28? What I'm looking at is starting to tell me it could be a z/28 (dz code, matching #'s, z heads, z intake, etc...). I'll look at the rear later this week, and let you know what I find. I also have a meeting to see the person who sold me the Camaro this week too. I appreciate the help and again hope you feel better.
Thanks,
Charlie


 Then my response back to him..

   Email me clear close-up pictures of the front engine pad stamp also. And the trans VIN and build date stamps.
Checking under the heater box is tough. Letís start with the pictures for now.
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dannystarr
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« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2013, 04:45:15 PM »

Here are some pictures. Kind of a mess with the flashes placed just right, and the SO light depth of the stampings. I don't know about this one. Pretty scary.......Danny
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dannystarr
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« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2013, 04:46:00 PM »

Couple more shots..
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z28z11
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« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2013, 09:14:16 PM »

Here are some pictures. Kind of a mess with the flashes placed just right, and the SO light depth of the stampings. I don't know about this one. Pretty scary.......Danny

Sanding scratches to cover feed lines from surfacing ? Too little of the deck surface in the shot to tell. Bulkhead reads "X5" or "X7" - can't tell. Deck stamp looks decent, but the whole thing gets worse all the time. Trans stamp looks decent. I'd bet the X55 stamp was original, then changed to an X77 at some point - you think ?

Like any other car - if all the documentation you have is a cowl tag, you'd best look real close - at everything.

Regards,
Steve
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KurtS
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« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2013, 10:25:06 PM »

Interesting. The original pad was better. The DZ was in-line. You can see the top of the D still there. And the partial Z of the right wasn't there.
Still a restamp.
I suspect the trans, but can't tell from that pic.
I suspect the X55 tag could be real. X77 isn't.
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Kurt S
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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2013, 08:32:22 AM »

I suspect the X55 tag could be real. X77 isn't.

You are probably right but for some reason it doesnt look right to me... Huh  I guess that is why I will never consider myself an expert..   Grin
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Darrell Cook

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1968 Matador Red Z28
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« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2013, 08:36:17 AM »

Quote from: z28z11[/quote
Bulkhead reads "X5" or "X7" - can't tell. Deck stamp looks decent, but the whole thing gets worse all the time. Trans stamp looks decent. I'd bet the X55 stamp was original, then changed to an X77 at some point - you think ?

Like any other car - if all the documentation you have is a cowl tag, you'd best look real close - at everything.

Regards,
Steve

It almost looks as if it was X5 and someone changed the 5 to a 7..  Would need a much better pic to be able to tell.
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Darrell Cook

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1968 Matador Red Z28
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« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2013, 09:15:37 AM »


I suspect the X55 tag could be real. X77 isn't.

Could an X55 have had that M21 trans? Thought that was a solid lifter and 396/350hp only?
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Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
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« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2013, 09:54:53 AM »


I suspect the X55 tag could be real. X77 isn't.

Could an X55 have had that M21 trans? Thought that was a solid lifter and 396/350hp only?


I was waiting for someone to spot that!!! Wink


http://www.camaros.org/trans.shtml#4speed
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Darrell Cook

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« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2013, 09:40:34 PM »

Hello everyone,

I'm the new owner of this '69 Camaro being discussed. So, here's the whole story from when I bought it a couple of months ago to right now. I bought the car and it came with a ton of parts (intakes, several sets of heads, extra 80's block, several cranks, water pumps, starters, rears, etc...). I saw the x55 cowl tag, period correct 4 bolt main block, matching number muncie trans, dual exhaust hanger holes on driver side, 12 bolt in it, Hugger orange factory over sprays, and believed it to be a true Hugger Orange 350 4 speed SS.

I put it up for sale on eBay, and advertised it as a '69 x55. Someone made an offer, and I accepted it. We started communication, and set a day for pick up. No money was exchanged. I started to organize some of the parts for pick up, and noticed that the engine had a serial number on it once I really cleaned and scraped off the engine pad. That's when I also saw the DZ code. I then went to reinspect the vin, and cowl tag. I took off the cowl a noticed that the hidden vin matched, but the cowl tag didn't seem to be fastened correctly. I informed the buyer of that, and asked to terminate the sale because I didn't feel comfortable selling this car as a true x55. I have a 100 % positive feedback, & don't want to risk my reputation or misrepresent something to a buyer. After that I went thru the parts: I've found z heads, z intake, x77 tag, and the x7 on the rear seat bulk head. I took out the seats to search for a build sheet and that's when I noticed the bulk head, and looked up its meaning online. That's throwing me for a loop.

Then Danny contacted me and accused me of having some big balls for advertising this car in 2008 as a z28 and now as a SS. Once he explained the 2008 listing and I informed him of my recent purchase we had an understanding that I wasn't trying to misrepresent this '69. We then opened communication for him to help me try and decipher what I had. I sent photos and opened up a conversation. I didn't realize he was posting our conversation until I stumbled onto this thread today, while I was looking for this 2008 ad he mentioned. It doesn't bother me that he made this a public discussion because I'm a pretty forthright person, but he could of informed me so that you people could have heard my questions directly from me. Either way, I appreciate his help and those of you who we're answering my questions thru him.

I checked the hidden spots (cowl & heater box) Danny mentioned. I also re inspected the vin tag, and feel comfortable that I have a legit matching vin tag, cowl hidden vin, heater hidden vin, and title.

I'm scheduled to meet with the family who sold me the Camaro and parts later this week. I don't think they'll be able to clarify anything for me, unless the give me a Protecto plate and original dealership bill of sale LOL!  Not sure if it's a x55 or x77, but at this point I know it's a 69 Hugger Orange V8 4 speed with a 12 bolt posi. How can I not put a 1st Gen Camaro like that back on the road!

Sorry for the extremely long post, but I just wanted to get the full story out there. Thank you to Danny and those of you who have provided me information on my quest. If anyone has any other information or knowledge to help, please contact me.

Thank you,
Charlie
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dannystarr
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« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2013, 10:33:19 PM »

Charlie,
 I thought maybe you might do a search and find CRG. I figured you would do a VIN search and see it. It's nice to have the knowledge explained. Sometimes I just help out and move on. But I'm glad you are plugged in. I got some info that was obvious, and from a couple friends. But most all came from the experts here. Good luck, I hope it works out for ya. Maybe this was a nice SS at one time. OR, maybe it's a Z/28 with a non- numbers matching engine??... Danny
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« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2013, 10:58:54 PM »

Charlie,
I feel somewhat responsible for getting this whole thing going on your car. If it were not for the fact that this is a 12B car, which is why I was looking at ebay ad, because I have a 12B car and my memory of what I had seen doing research on this site, I may have missed out on this car's earlier life. I said to myself, I remember that Vin on CRG and looked it up. After all that has been said and after looking at your pics(ebay and this site), I feel your car is an X55 car and not a Z.  I must say, for someone who never had seen this site, you are knowledgeable about 69's based on what you took pics of and what you state. The reason I feel it is an X55 are based on a few things I see in the pics, namely: car has 5 leaf springs, trim tag X55 looks real to my untrained eyes and heads are 041's without screw in studs or guide plates which point to 300 HP heads although these castings can be found on a Z they would have those screw in studs if they were true Z heads along with 2.02 valves. That being said, I am assuming these heads came with the block and based on block vin,which looks legit, it looks like a 300hp block (4 bolt mains). The pistons in the box look like 300HP flattops also.. Block was decked (you say) enough to re-stamp DZ (my opinion) as it was obvious by the fake X77 tag that efforts were made to make this into a Z. I am sure loose tag was from being re-attached and perhaps someone gave up on the Z transformation when it was determined the cowl tag was no good and they probably spent some good coin getting the tag and found out it was not that easy to fool the experts. This is coming from someone who owns 2 real SS cars, one a 350 car with those same heads and block. This site is a place were enthusiasts strive for the truth and better understanding of all 1st generation nuances to accurately preserve and restore their cars with a passion. Welcome aboard and good luck uncovering the facts about your car. The only puzzling piece is the trans, being a M21, supposedly not available with a SS350, but it may also be a re-stamp. I am not sure at this point to comment further.
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Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
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« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2013, 12:50:24 AM »

No problem. It's better to have knowledge and history than to be blindsided later. I pretty much agree that it's a x55. Your  points about the springs and the heads are what's leaning me to an x55, but I did get 2 other sets of heads and another intake with the camaro. One seat of heads were the 041's, one set was 1980's heads, and the other set are 186's z heads. The other intake is a 3932472 z intake. So, it's the z heads, z intake, and yes the m21 that are completely throwing me off. That x7 on the bulk head threw me a pretty big curve too. The x77 cowl tag and dz code also threw me for a loop, but it looks like most believe they aren't authentic. I'll see what the family I bought the car off of tells me this week when I see them. I feel like Columbo! Thanks for the compliment on my knowledge. I do use the CRG site for information, specs, and numbers, but never used the CRG forum. Now I see how the forum can be a valuable tool.
Thanks again,
Charlie
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« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2013, 08:37:31 AM »

One other thing, (it was late when I posted last) The FUEL line. Yes, that pesky fuel line detail. I looked again at the pics for evidence of X55 this time looking at fuel line. A mystery here again. It is a single line and appears untouched? Hmmm...I guess the plot thickens
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Putting you First...Keeps me First. Talent on loan from God. Helping the hobbyist and exposing the fraud
1969 SS/RS 396 coupe Hugger Orange X22 712 bought in 79
1969 SS 350 coupe LeMans Blue 713 bought in 79
1969 307 4spd. coupe Daytona Yellow 711 bought in 85
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« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2013, 09:27:35 AM »

This is my disclaimer:

I am by no means an expert and only go on what experiences I gain and the data I read.  This is certianly a very strange vehicle and I would venture to say it would be wise to have an expert come to look at this car and certify or verify it if you are wanting to represent the vehicle correctly..  Obviously paperwork is always the best data backer but that too can be faked..

Words from just an average Tennessee redneck.   Grin
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Darrell Cook

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1968 Rallye Green SS L78 - unrestored original
1968 Matador Red Z28
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« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2013, 10:29:39 AM »

heads are 041's without screw in studs or guide plates which point to 300 HP heads although these castings can be found on a Z they would have those screw in studs if they were true Z heads along with 2.02 valves.

Screw-in studs and guide plates didn't appear on the Z until 1970.
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« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2013, 02:39:39 PM »

Thanks for the help, all!

Ko-lek-tor,
Educate me on the fuel lines? I did take a picture of the driver side front frame rail, because someone told me those drilled holes were signs that only a SS would have. I thought that had something to do with fuel lines. Please explain in detail what you are referring to or give me a site to read about it.
Thanks,
Charlie
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« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2013, 02:46:02 PM »

http://www.camaros.org/diffs69.shtml

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Darrell Cook

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1968 Matador Red Z28
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« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2013, 02:50:19 PM »

Thanks
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« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2013, 05:49:10 PM »

Just to let everyone know, I will be selling this Camaro. I have two projects in the shop now. If it doesn't sell then it'll be next in line.
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« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2013, 11:07:19 AM »

Isn't  12B  a little early to have an  X  Code on the tag.

Thanks
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« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2013, 11:49:57 AM »

Earliest possible week. 12A's don't have it, I've seen more than several "X" marked 12B's over the years.

1969 Cowl Tag - X Codes
The Xnn codes were a mid-1969 model addition to the Fisher Body cowl tags of Norwood-built Camaros, starting with the 12B (second week of December) build week. (CRG has found 12B cars both with and without these codes. Our data for all cars in prior weeks is absent this code, and our data for all cars in weeks following contain this code.) These codes were an aid for Fisher body assembly workers to identify body trim and paint changes required for different Camaro models. The codes are divided into two groups: those with the Z21 style trim option and those without the Z21 style trim option.
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« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2013, 06:53:39 PM »

I could use some help on the pricing of this 69 Camaro SS. I'd like to see what everyone in the CRG Forum thinks a value should be for this project. Thanks in advance for your opinions and thoughts. Here's the link to the Camaro:

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11050.m43.l1123/7?euid=89402c7fccfb4bc18bc08e77acf5cb5b&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2Fws%2FeBayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D251371744075%26ssPageName%3DADME%3AX%3AAAQ%3AMOTORS%3A1123

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