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Author Topic: Missing Trim Tag  (Read 7481 times)
Flowjoe
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« on: September 12, 2007, 01:26:13 PM »

I have a '69 convertible VIN 124679N679379 that has a POP but is missing it's trim tag.  KurtS has seen this car at my house.  It would appear to be a red on red std car with white power top..this is all from the physical evidence.  I believe Kurt agreed with this assesment.  The body color and interior color are not called out on the POP.  I would like to replace the trim tag and would like comments on the best way to have it reproduced.  The POP reads as follows:
                           124679N679379   B
T0827DD               BA0828G             9
B0M11                   13   

I decode as follows:
B = Bay City 2bbl
T0827DD = Aug. 27 307 w/TH350   
BA0828G  = Aug 28 2.56:1 open
9 = September build
BOM11 = ?? August 11th
1= N40 power steering
3 = Radio

Based on the VIN I put the build date as 09A (on or around Wednesday September 3rd)

It has some but not all of the bright trim (1/4 louvres, front wheel well trim) ...is it X-44 or X-11?

the 307 is no longer with the car (it had a wasted December '68 date 307 instead), the TH350 and rear axle appear to be original.

thanks in advance


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Flowjoe
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2007, 06:33:40 PM »

Let me put this another way...here is how I would configure the "new" trim tag:

ST 69 12467      NOR? ? ? ? ? ?  BDY
TR 718               52 A           PNT
09A                                X-11


What should i put into the body identification number area?  Does anyone else see a problem with having a new tag made like this?
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KurtS
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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2007, 01:30:13 AM »

I have a '69 convertible VIN 124679N679379 that has a POP but is missing it's trim tag.  KurtS has seen this car at my house. 

BOM11 = ?? August 11th
I remember seeing a bunch of cars at your place. And a bunch of lizards. Smiley
So this one is the next project?

B - Cleveland THM350
0 - 1970 (it was already the new model year)
M11 - August 11
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Flowjoe
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« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2007, 08:55:17 AM »

I have a '69 convertible VIN 124679N679379 that has a POP but is missing it's trim tag.  KurtS has seen this car at my house. 

BOM11 = ?? August 11th
I remember seeing a bunch of cars at your place. And a bunch of lizards. Smiley
So this one is the next project?

B - Cleveland THM350
0 - 1970 (it was already the new model year)
M11 - August 11


This one was sitting way out in the back under a tarp.  It's sort of the next project...I bought it with my best friend with the intention of converting it to a BBC w/ 4 speed - going the hot rod route.  So we got started on it and then decided that we didn't want to keep it and that we should sell it (other things to do wiht our time and money).  A car with no trim tag always seems to cause suspicion and lower the selling price...so I wanted to put one back on but I want it to be as accurate as possible. 

So what do you think on the repro trim tag?  Is there one vendor better than another?  what should I do about the body idetnification number?  jsut pull a number out of thin air?   Is there a logical pattern?  I'm not trying to turn this into something it is not - I want it to look legit and represent the actual car.
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drdave69
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« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2007, 12:21:02 PM »

Why not put XXXXXX for the body number on the repro trim tag along with the other data you already stated? And, before you attach it stamp "REPRO" on the tag so that there will never be a question about it being a replacement tag.
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Flowjoe
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« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2007, 03:01:53 PM »

Why not put XXXXXX for the body number on the repro trim tag along with the other data you already stated? And, before you attach it stamp "REPRO" on the tag so that there will never be a question about it being a replacement tag.

that would be worse than having no tag.  It's not like I'm trying to create some exotic car here...I'm trying to give it it's identity and life back (this poor car was full of 22 long rounds both spent and live...found them in all sorts of places, had headers and remote dual oil filter, crazy wiring and a Z/28 badge on the tail panel). 

I was hoping for some input from the CRG as to what acceptable practies were for replacing trim tags...I'm fairly certain of most of my info (and at the time Kurt agreed that it was a Red on Red car)....so I was looking opinions as to which approach would be more legit from a group of people that spend a lot of time looking at theses sorts of things.  I also figure that if I replace the trim taag "correctly" then it is les likely to be bought by someone and have a tag added that declares it to be an X-22 car with 4 speed and a bazillin options.  If there is a concern that the information I seek may help counterfeiters then I would be happy to take my answer via Email or PM.  Jus let me know to whom I should write.

So I will put you in the camp of leaving what I don't know essentially blank and labelling it as a reproduction...there's one data point...any others?

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Jonesy
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« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2007, 08:32:08 PM »

My guess is that you arent going to get an endorsement or body number from anyone in the CRG. I dont think Dave was that far out of line.
Is it really that important as to what body number you put on it if it is a repop tag??
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Flowjoe
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« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2007, 01:44:15 AM »

My guess is that you arent going to get an endorsement or body number from anyone in the CRG. I dont think Dave was that far out of line.
Is it really that important as to what body number you put on it if it is a repop tag??

I hear your comments but I guess I need to be more direct about my question.

Everytime a car turns up with a reproduction tag it gets ripped to shreds for what is wrong with it.  I want to avoid that by getting input before hand on what should be there - or shouldn't.

Everytime a car turns up without it's trim tag it is instantly suspect and is picked apart because of it.  I want to avoid that by getting input before hand so I can decide if it is better to leave it as is (no trim tag) or get a repro.

My buddy and I  have decided not to keep the car - it took us over three years of holding the car and futzing around with it  to get to that point (and a lot of elbow grease not to mention a little but of cash)...I'd like to get the best price I can for the car - is it better to leave the tag off?  Or better to get the reproduction?

The people at the CRG (both actual members and the forum crew) are very particular...something I value.  I consider it the definitive 1st gen info site.  I want to know how members of this community would prefer  to see this sort of thing dealt with...I have Dave's input.

I have tried to be up front about the car...I have given away the VIN and POP info right here.  I could have repopped the tag with x-11 stamped on it, stuffed one of my extra 12 bolts in it, put on an SS hood and done the other things to clone it but not call it a clone...I could have gone the whole x-22 route.  Instead I'd like to do right by the car and the hobby.   

It is a base V-8 Convertible missing its trim tag and original engine but with its  POP and orignal tranny and rear axle.  Should it get a repro tirm tag or not?  If it does get one how should it read?

For the record, I think that X's where the body id should be would look awful...I would stick something like 123456 or it's birthday (091969) in there if a reasonable sequence could not be established.  I also think that hand stamping "REPRO" on the tag would look equally poor...and besides, it is not like I'm creating a fantasy car here.  The proposed replacement tag wouldn't claim anything that I can't support. 


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drdave69
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« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2007, 06:35:11 AM »

The reason that I suggested XXXXXX for the body number is to leave no doubt that it is a replacement tag. Not all buyers in the distant future will know what a replacement tag looks like if it were to have 6 numeric digits for the body number, unless they are blatantly obvious (like 999999). After all, it is still going to be a repro tag so why not make it very easy to spot even by someone like me that can't really distinguish a repro from a real one.
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Flowjoe
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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2007, 06:25:08 PM »

The reason that I suggested XXXXXX for the body number is to leave no doubt that it is a replacement tag. Not all buyers in the distant future will know what a replacement tag looks like if it were to have 6 numeric digits for the body number, unless they are blatantly obvious (like 999999). After all, it is still going to be a repro tag so why not make it very easy to spot even by someone like me that can't really distinguish a repro from a real one.

Fairly reasoned. 

I find it astounding no one other than Dave and Jonsey have opinions on this matter.  In a hobby that spends a lot of time discussing things like  the correct level of gloss on retored chassis components it seems odd that there is not a "preferred" method of "restoring" a missing trim tag. 

Everyone up here is very free with their knowledge and time to help forum members restore a car "correctly"...I would have thought that this would be one more aspect of trying to right what has gone wrong with a car since it rolled off the assembly line 38+ years ago.

So I guess the question I asked in my last post remains:  Should I replace the trim tag or not?  If I do, how should it read?
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Jonesy
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« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2007, 08:23:38 PM »

I think this is a taboo area for the purists. Many of the guys who hang here are that, IMO. I think that is why the response rate is low.
I would think most would not want to see a repop tag on there.

I think the repop tags that get ripped to shreds are because they are repops and can be pointed out.
 
I am not sure what's better, leave it tagless or put a repop tag. IMO, a repop tag raises way more questions than you having no tag and POP.

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1967 RS-Z/28 Nantucket Blue the D-2 car

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Flowjoe
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« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2007, 11:35:26 PM »

I think this is a taboo area for the purists.
You may be right about the Taboo factor...you are definitiely right about the purists...of course that is one of the reasons that I come here.  that is also the reason that I came here and asked about the trim tag...I figured that I would get the dirt on the best way to handle it.  Taboo or not, you'd thnk that they would have an opinion that they would be willing to sahre...a simple yes or no would even suffice.
Many of the guys who hang here are that, IMO. I think that is why the response rate is low.
  You could well be on to something here..but again, you'd think they 'd have an opinion and historically they are pretty free with their opinions
I would think most would not want to see a repop tag on there.
We'll never know unless someone chimes in.  If the overwhelming opinion were not to put  a repro tag ont eh car then I would probablly leave it off..that is why I asked the question in the first place.

I think the repop tags that get ripped to shreds are because they are repops and can be pointed out.
That would imply that there are tags that cannot be spotted...I have the feeling from opinions expressed here in the past that a knowledgable person can always spot a repro tag.  I am not such a person.  My observation is that even the "good" repros get cut to shreds here.  Which, of course, supprots your position that most here would not want to see a repro tag.

I am not sure what's better, leave it tagless or put a repop tag. IMO, a repop tag raises way more questions than you having no tag and POP.
And that is a reasonable position to take although I don't necessarily agree (right now, the jury is still out for me).  Can you enumerate your reasons for feeling that it raises more questions?  In particular think about my situation.  this is the first car I have had that does not have a trim tag (excluding one or two parts cars that were destined to be cut up) so this is new territory for me.  For the life of me I cannot understand why , taboo or not, no one will simply say don't or do put a repro tag on the car...It seems that some sort of standard for this would bennefit the hobby  - mine is not the only car out there that has lost it's tag....maybe that Z/28 emblem on the tail pan was no abberation, maybe it was the long lost 1 of 1 '69 Z/28 convertible Grin
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gflac
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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2007, 10:17:08 AM »

Im not sure how Id handle the problem myself. I dont think there is anything "wrong" with adding a Trim Tag that is as accurate as possible.  I would argue that it is part of the restoration of the car.  There is no attempt to falsify information on your part especially having the POP in hand.  I sometimes think the members of this site are reluctant to utter an opinion so that they cant be held to it later.  In any event, I think a discussion of this topic would be worthwhile in order to come to some kind of consensus about a good way to proceed when a Trim Tag is missing. 
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tom
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2007, 12:49:54 PM »

If you need to replace the tag, I would suggest that a photo of the repro tag be provided to the forum members to reference in the future. If you put it on e-bay, state that the tag is a repro, and the reason in your ad. That might reduce the shredding of it on the forum. I would try not to get a perfect copy, so that in the future it will not pass muster if someone does try to pass it off. At the present I don't see the 307/auto as a highly sought after, rare and high priced car, but 30 years ago nobody expected to see any 6 figure priced Camaros. 
In the end, you will do what you will do.

Good luck,

Tom
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KurtS
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2007, 03:24:54 PM »

I remember that car. It did have that lizard on it that wouldn't move. Smiley

I venture that it's probably not worth putting the tag on it. There's a % of people that know Camaros that would be interested in the car and the tag info. They would know the tag was missing. But a large % would just want a ragtop and they don't know much about Camaros (could have been a Chevelle or something else). They wouldn't care about the tag and would just build the car to what they want.
You'd hate to put in on and then have someone smooth the firewall......
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Kurt S
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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2007, 06:22:59 PM »

I say put the tag on.even if its a repop,it will make the car look complete.Im in the same boat as you and im going to get a repop tag for my car.most of the people who look at the car wont know the difference if its real or not.since your not trying to misrepresent the car,I say put it on.thats my opinion.
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lakeholme
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« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2007, 08:06:08 PM »

I venture that it's probably not worth putting the tag on it. There's a % of people that know Camaros that would be interested in the car and the tag info. They would know the tag was missing. But a large % would just want a ragtop and they don't know much about Camaros (could have been a Chevelle or something else). They wouldn't care about the tag and would just build the car to what they want.
You'd hate to put in on and then have someone smooth the firewall......

I agree with Kurt on the tag...
It's virtually impossible to know the "worth" of an honest repo. trim tag until you know your buyer.

If you want "yea" or "nay" opinions, add a poll to your thread.
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Phillip
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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2007, 09:33:53 AM »

You started this post as if you were seeking permission to install the trim tag.  As you know all tags sold are not legitimately used.  Look at the 50,000 1969 Z/28's out now.    As long as your not trying to defraud the buyer of the car, do what you want to with it.  It's yours.


   BTW what happened to the original tag?  Is it on another car somewhere? 

 
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Captain John Wykoff
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gflac
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« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2007, 11:29:13 AM »

You started this post as if you were seeking permission to install the trim tag.  As you know all tags sold are not legitimately used.  Look at the 50,000 1969 Z/28's out now.    As long as your not trying to defraud the buyer of the car, do what you want to with it.  It's yours.


   BTW what happened to the original tag?  Is it on another car somewhere? 

Actually he didnt ask for "permission", he asked if anyone sees a problem with what he was doing.  Obviously he can do what he wants, I believe he was coming to this site to get the thoughts of people he respects.  The fact that it is a plain jane convertible and he is simply trying to get the proper information onto a repop trim tag seems pretty clear.  From my point of view, putting a correct as possible trim tag back on the car is part of the restoration of the car. 
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Flowjoe
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« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2007, 08:17:12 PM »

You started this post as if you were seeking permission to install the trim tag.  As you know all tags sold are not legitimately used.  Look at the 50,000 1969 Z/28's out now.    As long as your not trying to defraud the buyer of the car, do what you want to with it.  It's yours.


   BTW what happened to the original tag?  Is it on another car somewhere? 

 

We bought the car without the trim tag...didn't seem important with what we had planned..the POP was a nice bonus a the time but equally unimportant...your guess is as good as or mavbe better than mine as to where it may now be.

Of course it's my car (well actually, mine and my buddy's) but if I was just going to do what I want why would I be soliciting input form the good folks of this forum?  It's not like I'm trying to defraud anyone.

I wasn't asking for permission but rather for feedback (Gflac has it right)...I was looking for normativie practices.  you  know, like the reason Jerry's books exist and are read and referenced?  Like the reason people ask what's the right number for a '69 power brake booster?  Like what level of gloss shoudl the interior metal parts on a  '67 be painted?  And where to find said product.

Actually, Lakeholme must be psychic as about the same time he wrote his post I was thinking I'd gone about this the wrong way.  I should have started with a poll to see who would and would not replace the tag.

right now it would seem that since it is just a PJ convert that it's not worth  it...this implies that a more desirable car (say a Z/28) should get a replacement tag - but then that begs the question of how shoudl that tag be configured...

does anyone know how I can add a poll to this thread, as lakeholme suggested?  Or will I have to start a new thread?
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Gramps69Z
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« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2007, 10:06:13 PM »

Click on -new poll-  in the right upper corner of the subject page to start one.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 10:08:25 PM by WYKOFF69Z » Logged

Captain John Wykoff
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Flowjoe
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« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2007, 10:31:34 PM »

Click on -new poll-  in the right upper corner of the subject page to start one.
Won't that just start a new thread? Or can it be "linked" to this thread?
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lakeholme
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« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2007, 04:50:32 PM »

Flowjoe,

No, not psychic, I deal with thousands of people with differing opinions in my work.  Nowadays, it is hard to get a "clean" yea or nay. 

Actually, we First Generation Camaro lovers are too "new" to the classic car hobby to have worked through this.  Your type of question is something we confront with two basic opinions: no or do what you want.  You ought to talk to some Pre-War car owners, they've dealt with this sort of stuff for a long time.

Good luck!
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Phillip
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RickH
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« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2007, 08:36:25 PM »

Ok, heres my opinion.

You have the car, you have a VIN and in my opinion you have another very important document, the POP and they all match. If it was my car I wouldn't add a repop trim tag. I don't believe it's needed.

Rick H.
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nuch_ss396
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« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2007, 09:41:52 PM »

Well, as you can see, this is sort of a hands off subject.  Too much information to supply to the bad guys out there.  Present company excluded.

If you want a "correct" trim tag, look at the cars on ebay and study their trim tags for a while.  Also, take as many digital images of Camaros at car
shows as you can.  You will eventually back door into what the repro tag needs. 

I know you guys were looking for a definitive answer here, but your own research is going to win the day for you.  JMHO

Nuch
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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2007, 05:46:10 PM »

Wow, interesting thread.  For what it's worth, here's my take.  I've always kind of been in the "no fake tags" camp but you've really made me think about this.

If you absolutely, positively, knew the body number and X code, and were able to make an exact replacement of the original tag, is there any harm to anyone, anywhere, at anytime?  Only if they are not made aware of the fact that it is a replacement.

On the other hand, if you don't know the number, it's not really an exact replacement, and it never can be no matter how good the fake is.  I understand the aesthetic argument, but I guess the bottom line to me is who are you trying to fool?  Yourself or the buyer?  Please understand this is not an attack or insult, it's a legitamate question.  On my own stuff, I myself want to see the complete picture and can't stand it when something obvious is missing.  So I'll put on a part that isn't right and hope I can find the correct one later.  And it looks better, even though I know it's wrong.

Anyway, after thinking it over, I think I would put on the fake tag if I was keeping the car but would not put it on if I was selling.

Good, thought provoking question though.  Thanks.
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