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Author Topic: PTB on Los Angeles Camaros  (Read 16066 times)
mrdetails
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« on: June 19, 2007, 10:47:19 AM »

Not to dought Jerry Macneish's fine reference book, which says "the PTB stamps were not used on LA assembled cars". I also have information from the US Camaro club which states "PTB stamps have been documented on LA assembled cars". I was wondering if anyone has ever seen the PTB on a LA car?
Thks.:
Sam
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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2007, 02:06:26 PM »

None have ever been documented.  When I interviewed Larry Price who was a quality control worker at Norwood, he told me that this process was only used at Norwood.

Jerry
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sebastien
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2007, 03:04:56 PM »

did all norwood car had them?
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2007, 06:57:01 PM »

Yes, and sometimes they are behind the front fenders and not on the firewall in plain sight,

JM
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2007, 08:31:33 PM »

Just as a assurance I have had 4 documented Z28s with a 69 and 68 from both LA and Norwood. Both 69 and 68 from Norwood had PTB and both 69 and 68 from LA had no markings of that sort. Jerrys books show this .
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2007, 10:43:24 PM »

Jon Mello and I sorted this out years ago.  When I restored my LA built 67 Z28, there were no signs of stamps anywhere and the low mileage white SS that the US Camaro club gave away years ago did not have them either.  Couple that with the fact that Norwood workers confirmed this process.

Jerry
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2007, 12:25:27 AM »

I agree with Jerry. No PTB stamps used at the LOS plant back then but there have been a lot of people putting them on during restorations. It is frustrating to see but that's part of life, I guess. Kind of reminds me of the Caution:Fan stickers. No matter how many times it gets explained that Camaros never came with those, some people just feel compelled to put them on.

-Jon
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mrdetails
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2007, 11:06:59 AM »

No PTB for me....
Thks.:
Sam
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sd1968z28
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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2007, 04:56:12 PM »

i have stated this before, but here it is again.   my family owned and operated a chevy dealership for many years, and i asked my father about this, jerry has met my dad so he knows i am not making this up. he told me those damn things washed off the first time you cleaned up the car for PDI.  not really paint probably some water based stamp. they are very seldom seen in real life just another goofy bull thing like the fan sticker stated above.
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maroman
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2007, 09:29:39 PM »

Yes, and sometimes they are behind the front fenders and not on the firewall in plain sight,

JM
That's where my '67's are. Seems most every '67 at Carlisle had them showing above the heater and M.C. though.
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2007, 09:44:48 PM »

i wish i could get the hang of posting pics on this thing. anyone who wants a pic of the orig ptb stamps on my 67 rs/ss, email me and i will send it to you. they were on the firewall behind the fenders.
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2007, 02:09:52 PM »

well that explains why they are still there. i have had 2 original 68s my current z and a ss396 neither had marking that i could find?
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Ron C.
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« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2007, 02:42:11 PM »

Jerry,did the 67 Z/28s get the PBT stamps from the norwood plant? i thought that started in 69?
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« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2007, 04:37:10 PM »

my 67 rs/ss with a 12d production date had them behind the fenders. email me for pics.
buddy
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« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2007, 07:26:02 PM »

All Norwood cars got them from 67-69, either green or orange in color.

JM
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« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2008, 02:21:46 PM »

i have stated this before, but here it is again.   my family owned and operated a chevy dealership for many years, and i asked my father about this, jerry has met my dad so he knows i am not making this up. he told me those damn things washed off the first time you cleaned up the car for PDI.  not really paint probably some water based stamp. they are very seldom seen in real life just another goofy bull thing like the fan sticker stated above.

Well, I might have agreed with you before I went out to my car and checked ...  Smiley    (Personally I hate to see those 'unknown' paint marks all over a freshly restored car..  my theory is that NO ONE knows what many of them mean, and most restorers are simnply following the 'monkey see' monkey do' rule..  Smiley

Anyway, after seeing some info here and on TC about the PTB mark, I was examining my firewall one night a week or two ago, and sure enough, I saw a faint PBT (in green) just above and to the right of my brake booster...    I took a photo of it, but don't have it where I can post it right now.   Note:  I bought my '69 Z28 (norwood car) in 1976.  It has sat in my garage undriven (*un-anything) since 1980.  It has never been restored....
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 02:46:51 PM by 69Z28-RS » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2008, 02:45:53 PM »

Maybe this will work.   i put the image on photobucket...
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
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« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2008, 02:49:48 PM »

..  and now my question is..  What does it mean?Huh   
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
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« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2008, 03:20:00 PM »

..  and now my question is..  What does it mean?Huh  

P = Paint
B = Body
T = Trim

Paul

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Dave69x33
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« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2008, 08:55:35 PM »

Here are a few more pics of PBT stamps taken on unrestored cars I have run across. 
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Dave69x33
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« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2008, 09:09:14 PM »

Sorry...pulled the trigger before the pics were attached...

These happen to be two different 69 Pace Cars, one is an 03D build date, the other an 05A.
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2008, 12:57:09 AM »

So when were the P T and B marks put on?  and why?  they must have been applied at different times by different people?  after QA inspection of those areas?  or ?    and why would the cars be marked on both sides of the firewall?   
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« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2008, 08:35:00 AM »

These letters were stamped before the front feners were installed.  They were for paint, body and trim inspection at Norwood.  The different colors desiganted a different inspector.  In 1967, the PTB's can also be behind the front fender.  On Ben Wenzel's 1967 Z28, there is an old article from the late 60s' showing his engine bay and you can see the stamps clear as a bell.

Jerry
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paceme
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« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2008, 08:36:07 AM »

So when were the P T and B marks put on?  and why?  they must have been applied at different times by different people?  after QA inspection of those areas?  or ?    and why would the cars be marked on both sides of the firewall?   

There were two inspectors (one on each side car) applying the stamps as it finished that operation in the assembly process. There are paint daubs through out the car that represent inspection and or confirmation that a component is torqued or installation complete.  
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« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2008, 11:15:42 AM »

Those are Fisher Body inspection stamps, indicating final "OK" buyoff for body, paint, and trim, just before the painted and trimmed body shell went "through the wall" to Chevrolet.
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« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2008, 03:46:26 PM »

Thanks guys!   Smiley     Reading all the new info on my Camaro on this site and TC has enthused me to begin working on my Z28 again (it's been 'waiting' since 1981)...
JohnZ:  NCRS is just gonna have to wait a while to get to judge that black '72 Corvette coupe I bought last year at Carlisle ...  Smiley .. you know.  the one with the wing and flares?  Smiley Smiley
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 03:51:40 PM by 69Z28-RS » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2008, 09:12:26 PM »

PTB's on my 69 Z/28
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« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2008, 12:42:13 AM »

I don't recall where I heard it but I was told the stamps in orange were done on the day shift and the ones in green are the night shift. I've got no idea whether that is fact or fiction but is seems possible.

-Jon
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« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2008, 12:59:55 PM »

It was my understanding that the color designated the inspector's ID, not day or night shift.  L. Price was involved in the QC processes back then at Norwood.

Jerry
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« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2008, 10:56:29 AM »

It was my understanding that the color designated the inspector's ID, not day or night shift.  L. Price was involved in the QC processes back then at Norwood.

Jerry

Could well be. The final buyoff inspector on the Fisher side had a paper punch with an initial or number that he used on the body's inspection ticket (which tied his ID to that particular body), and he then stamped the firewall to show that the body had passed inspection. The individual inspection tickets with the inspection and repair punches were kept for 30 days, then trashed.

Chevrolet did the same thing on their side - inspectors had punches with initials or unique symbols to ID them, and repairmen had punches with numbers; when zone inspections were complete at the end of the line, the completed tickets were pulled, and the final inspector punched a 1" x 1" square adhesive tag and stuck it on the inside of the windshield to indicate final buyoff for that zone. A completed car ready to ship would have four stickers - "M" for mechanical, "P" for paint, "B" for body, and "RT" for roll-test. If you look closely at the photo below (early 60's Chevy II at Willow Run), you can see the stickers inside the windshield.
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« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2008, 10:57:31 AM »

I agree with Jerry. No PTB stamps used at the LOS plant back then but there have been a lot of people putting them on during restorations. It is frustrating to see but that's part of life, I guess. Kind of reminds me of the Caution:Fan stickers. No matter how many times it gets explained that Camaros never came with those, some people just feel compelled to put them on.

-Jon
I almost hate posting this, because as far as I'm concerned what Jerry says is gospel.  However, I met this older gentlemen who was the original owner of a survivor 69 Z28.  He claimed that all he has ever done was minimal maintenance (and it looked like it too).  The engine compartment was shabby, but I did noticed a fadded Caution sticker on the fan shroud.  I asked him about the sticker, and he said its always been there.  Just wanted to post this for sake of discussion.
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« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2009, 11:56:47 AM »

However, I met this older gentlemen who was the original owner of a survivor 69 Z28.  He claimed that all he has ever done was minimal maintenance (and it looked like it too).  The engine compartment was shabby, but I did noticed a fadded Caution sticker on the fan shroud.  I asked him about the sticker, and he said its always been there.  Just wanted to post this for sake of discussion.

Someone added it - that's a Ford part, and it didn't get installed in a GM assembly plant. He probably added it himself, and just doesn't remember it. Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2009, 01:55:27 PM »

May be a Ford sticker, but its worth remembering. A friend of mine many years ago reached in to adjust the timing on his ford, from the front, (front distributor if I remember correctly) and wound up with both forearms slashed repeatedly by the fan blades. It wasn't pretty. MANY stiches later he returned from the ER.
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« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2011, 11:50:53 AM »

I just wanted to bring this thread up because I have always been told that the colors on the PBT stamps should not be mixed. I see a few photos of cars in this thread that have both green and orange stamps combined.

Can anyone say with certainty that the stamps were either not mixed or on occasion were mixed? And if both colors were used on one car is that common or minimal and what may have been the cause for both colors to be used?
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« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2011, 06:41:26 PM »

They are mixed.
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« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2011, 08:56:58 PM »

I have questioned this on the mixed colors years ago. I'm Friends with a well knowed restoration shop on the east cost who specializes in only 67-69 Camaro's since the 80's and noticed he was mixing the colors on his restored cars & questioned this. I had never owned or seen a original car with mixed colors in 25 years. I offered them good money if they could show me one with the mixed colors and after five years I'm still waiting.

ONLY in the past year have I seen the mixed colors. I have now seen two six cycl cars in one month with the mixed colors.

In my research!

99% one color
1% mixed

I have been taking & saving pictures of every original  Camaro with the PTB stamps for over ten years now and have hundreds of pictures to prove this.

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« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2011, 09:56:10 PM »

Also something you never see on the restored cars is the T stamp under the trim tag.

80% of the cars I have pictures of will have the T under the tag.

I would also say 80% will be all orange PBT'S.

& 20% with all green PBT'S.

I have pictures of two cars with the letter F on the firewall.

Have pictures also of three trim tags with a red X on the trim tag.
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« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2011, 10:47:35 PM »

Yes most seem to be all one color but even you are now noticing mixed.
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« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2011, 08:59:15 AM »

rat427, Have you seen the "X" under the trim tag on any LA built cars or just Norwood?
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« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2011, 01:08:39 PM »

rat427, Have you seen the "X" under the trim tag on any LA built cars or just Norwood?
I have only seen it on the Norwood cars.  Two cars with the Red X on the trim tag and one with the X under the tag on the firewall.
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« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2011, 04:40:01 AM »

This is a 69 Firebird local car it's entire life (know the car from new) and took the pics as the trim "T" was upside down on both sides of firewall. You can see how faint the green is compared to the orange. And the "T" is under the trim tag on the left side.

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« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2011, 07:31:16 AM »

Sorry about the first picture as it should show the upside down "T" to the left of the green stampings and it's on the picture but when I post it, it is cut off. Tried with no text and it showed upon review but when posted same results. Gotta figure out how to do this correctly Grin
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« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2011, 08:00:29 AM »

You did just fine Chick. Use the slide bar at the bottom of the post. Also, if you keep your down sizing to just under 150KB it'll be fine.
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« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2011, 08:26:51 AM »

Then there is the yellow .... Smiley


Seriously, I ask because one of the National judges told me recently that all one color and mostly orange.  Of course he could be wrong. Plus the fact every Camaro shop that sells first gen parts has been selling these stamps for years so who know how many of these firewalls have been stamped.

I would be interested in what Steve and the guys in the Vintage Certification Program have seen
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« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2011, 10:22:41 AM »

MR,
 To answer the first post, Yes,  I have seen many LA cars with PBT stamps. They are always located behind the "original" non-coded  DELCO MORINE stamped brake booster and Master cylinders with no bleeders on these original cars. I remember a mag with some "rossetta stone" story years ago about all the paint making codes and since then this has been an mainstay  for "restorers". ( bowtie mirrors on 67's is another)
   VT
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« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2011, 07:01:00 PM »

I have seen plenty of Yellow stamps also but they have been on restored cars.   I know of two muscle car dealers in the north east one in particular for some reason has been using mixed colored PBT'S with yellow for years. 
I guess they same reason they put White X marks on everything possible under the hood and under the car along with the X'S with the circles on the rear end covers.
The same guys also put Yellow, Green, Red & blue dots & paint marks on just about every nut & bolt on the car. (IMO)the car looks like it has been driven through a paint ball factory.

They do this IMO to make the cars look more highly detail for the uneducated buyers. (Dealers) anything to help the sell & bring more money.
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« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2011, 08:05:02 AM »

Then there is the yellow .... Smiley


Seriously, I ask because one of the National judges told me recently that all one color and mostly orange.  Of course he could be wrong. Plus the fact every Camaro shop that sells first gen parts has been selling these stamps for years so who know how many of these firewalls have been stamped.

I would be interested in what Steve and the guys in the Vintage Certification Program have seen


Just saw this thread, so sorry for the delay in responding. I have looked at hundreds of camaros and with the exception of two the PTB stampings were the same color. As shown above many have a T stamped below the trim tag with an X chalk/crayon marking as well. I would certainly call multi color inspection stampings the exception but they did occur.
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« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2011, 08:39:50 PM »

A freind brought by his very original 69 Z28 Sat, & I remebered this post.The engine compartment is nice & untouched.
 Here are pictures of Yellow & Orange stamps. Built 1st week of Feb.
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« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2011, 08:45:55 PM »

More pics
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« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2011, 09:58:27 PM »

A freind brought by his very original 69 Z28 Sat, & I remebered this post.The engine compartment is nice & untouched.
 Here are pictures of Yellow & Orange stamps. Built 1st week of Feb.

Norwood-built car, right?
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« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2011, 07:01:39 AM »

Correct, Norwood built
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« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2011, 07:13:14 AM »

Thank you.
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« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2013, 03:56:24 PM »

I see people on here have talked about it but no one has said what it means.   I also have an F stamped under the cowl tag on the firewall.  Its green and to the left of the master cylinder.   What does it stand for???   I know what the PBT stands for.
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« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2013, 04:35:16 PM »

The F you think you see is a P missing the arc.
(P) Paint (T) Trim and (B) Body inspections before the bodies left Fisher.
I was under the impression the orange and green were different shifts.
Here are a few more Green ones from the 10D Z28 I just finished.



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« Reply #54 on: September 08, 2013, 04:42:51 PM »

It is very Lite but i dont think so.  The PTB is very evident on the left side of Master cyl in the corner just like yours appears.  I will try more to see if i can verify it.  Its all alone under the cowl tag.  I see others have mentioned the same as i.
Thanks for getting back to me.
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2013, 08:21:37 PM »

that 'original stamp' that was referenced as 'yellow'.  appeared to me to be a very faded orange....
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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
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Z10Mike
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« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2013, 08:46:53 AM »

My original engine bay Z10 has a green P still visible on the driver side just to the left( from a driver perspective) of the trim tag.  I'll have to check for the T under the trim tag and on the other side for stamps and mixed colors.



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67L78
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« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2013, 11:04:38 AM »

I've heard that the PTB letters were ink not paint. Is that true?

Richard
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Mike S
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« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2013, 11:29:07 AM »

 I have seen a few real examples on unrestored NOR cars and it looked like a high solids ink instead of paint.
I can't see any reason to use paint when ink is cheaper and I'm sure there was no intent for them to last beyond the assembly line.

Mike
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67 NOR SS/RS L35 Convertible - Restored
69Z28
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« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2013, 02:21:43 PM »

i have stated this before, but here it is again.   my family owned and operated a chevy dealership for many years, and i asked my father about this, jerry has met my dad so he knows i am not making this up. he told me those damn things washed off the first time you cleaned up the car for PDI.  not really paint probably some water based stamp. they are very seldom seen in real life just another goofy bull thing like the fan sticker stated above.

Well, I might have agreed with you before I went out to my car and checked ...  Smiley    (Personally I hate to see those 'unknown' paint marks all over a freshly restored car..  my theory is that NO ONE knows what many of them mean, and most restorers are simnply following the 'monkey see' monkey do' rule..  Smiley

Anyway, after seeing some info here and on TC about the PTB mark, I was examining my firewall one night a week or two ago, and sure enough, I saw a faint PBT (in green) just above and to the right of my brake booster...    I took a photo of it, but don't have it where I can post it right now.   Note:  I bought my '69 Z28 (norwood car) in 1976.  It has sat in my garage undriven (*un-anything) since 1980.  It has never been restored....


And to add to what Gary said, if you don't see, or can't find those stamps on your car, how do you really know what color they would be if you follow the monkey see monkey do mentality? I have yet to find any P T B stamps on my untouched 69 Z. Sometime in it's life the firewall was dusted with something black and I don't have a clue what to use to remove it so I can investigate more.
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« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2013, 04:01:48 PM »

all green here
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1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
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« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2013, 04:47:10 PM »

Reading this tread prompted me to go out and look under my hood(Norwood assembled car).   No P T B stamps are seen on either side; although thinking back over 40 years, it seems that there was at least one side stamped when it was purchased.   It would be really cool if they were still there, but I can't see any, so its alright.

Jim
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69Z28-RS
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« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2013, 08:23:40 PM »

I've owned my car since 1976, drove it regularly for 4 yrs or so before I parked it in 1980, and always believed that stuff was 'restoration graffiti', until JohnZ explained to me once a couple of years ago what they meant and they were 'really put on the cars by Fisher body'.. so I went with a bright light and looked .. and.  VOILA.... there they were, and after I took my brake booster off the firewall, I found a 'second T' behind some of the components under the Trim tag.. (all on the driver's side)..  I never found any on the passenger side, even after removing the heater housing.

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Gary W.  /  69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood all tint
69 Corvette convertible, silver/black 350 hp,
60 Corvette white/red, 72 Corvette coupe (2), 
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55 Nomad, '57 Nomad, '57 B/A Sedan
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