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Author Topic: Rear Stripes - again  (Read 15130 times)
Mark
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« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2007, 10:01:32 PM »

Theres only one mask.  The treatment at the back end of the car was the only difference, on spoiler equipped cars (indicated by the holes in the trunklid) they just taped off the last 3" or therabouts of the trunklid.  All masks were positioned off the rear window, vinyl top molding, or convertible top trim and were always the same, 5/8" off the bottom of each or these reference points.

I really don't see how the factory could have mispositioned your stripes, they were doing at least 50 Z28's a day so it's not like it was something they weren't familiar with, and the paint and trim inspectors would have caught it and had it repaired.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2007, 10:03:21 PM by Mark » Logged

Mark C.
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olympic69
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« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2007, 10:44:42 PM »

A few observations...the early '69 Z's as evident in Mag road tests had the narrow stripes, which in the photos look like maybe they terminated a little lower than the later ones, but the car in question seems to have the wide stripes? The termination point looks like that of a '68 w/o vinyl top...with the narrow stripes. The fact that the holes were brazed just kinda indicates anything could have happened after delivery, since that is not a factory thing. No reason to dismiss the cars authenticity, which I dont think anyone has even implied- just not factory rear striping, IMO.

Cheers 
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Rob
Olympic Gold X33

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asm69
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« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2007, 07:58:05 PM »

Thanks for your comments. Could you post those pictures. I'm also looking through my
old magazines as well for any rear stripe oddities. I also had the opportunity to look at
the assembly manual. It specs out the placement of the rear stripes. I think you should
review the assembly manual, I'm not sure if I am interpreting it correctly.

There is a CRG thread that points out that when a camaro came through the assembly
line without a spoiler the camaro emblem was positioned a little lower on the deck lid
than usual. So, when a dealer installed the rear spoiler the emblem was removed and
the holes were then brazed over. The emblem was not repositioned. I read this on this site.

Anyhow, post those pictures if you can, check out the assembly manual as well.

Valleyhugger
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olympic69
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« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2007, 11:19:35 PM »

I will try to get them scanned for you asap. Also, the diagram in the Assy manual is esoteric at best. I have inspected a few original cars, and mine still had the old stripes under a rather crappy scuff and shoot. It has been discussed quite a bit that the AIM for whatever reason does not represent what was done in production. I am sure you have done it, but a search here and over at camaros.net re-affirms the error of the AIM.

A nice example of a survivor:

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81626&highlight=z28+stripes

And other threads:

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101799&highlight=z28+stripes

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=84805&highlight=z28+stripe+measurements

Its been kicked around exhaustively!!! Note that JohnZ is an engineer, and was there when the cars were being made, so you gotta believe, at least from a factory perspective.

Regards-
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Rob
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2007, 02:18:08 PM »

With all due respect to the many people who have responded, I believe the low stripes on your car are correct as an "exception" to the typical process. I have seen many of these lower stripes on LOS-built cars. There was even one in my hometown, a silver non-spoiler car with the same striping, owned by the original elderly lady owner (her husband who purchased the car had passed away). I cannot ever recall seeing it on a NOR car. I have also seen other LOS cars in original paint with rear spoilers where the stripes went all the way down the lid and did not end under the spoiler. I happened to own one and viewed the original owner's pictures of it parked in the driveway when he brought it home. Check out the picture at the link below which has been on Wayne Guinn's Untold Secrets website for years. A picture taken back in '69. Remember that there is always a lot to learn about these cars. Avoid the temptation to say something is impossible or could NEVER happen. This is part of why CRG exists and continues to research these cars. I encourage any others who have noticed stripe "irregularities" to share what they have seen.

-Jon

http://www.camaro-untoldsecrets.com/stuff/stuff_fs.htm
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2007, 02:33:23 PM »

I didn't do the link right but I have attached the picture below. You can tell the picture was taken in 1969 due to the fact that the California license plate has the registration sticker in the upper LH corner. In 1970, the registration sticker switched to the upper RH corner and a month sticker was installed in the upper LH corner. This two-sticker method was not previously utilized by the state of California.

-Jon
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 04:46:42 PM by Jon Mello » Logged

Jon Mello
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Gramps69Z
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« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2007, 08:05:41 PM »

I believe the question that started this post, was where the stripe started near the rear windshield, not where it ended.  Cool
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Captain John Wykoff
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2007, 01:09:27 AM »

My main point did not concern where the stripes end up in the back. I realize the angle of the picture I posted of the Camaro on the dyno is not ideal for this purpose but if you look closely at the panel below the rear window, you will see that the stripes do not come anywhere close to approaching the back glass. This is an example of a car with the low stripes, the kind that would ordinarily be seen on a vinyl top car (but of course the car in the picture does not have a vinyl top). I am using this picture because I do not have another one to show you  for better illustration purposes. This type of striping has been observed by me on some other '69 LOS-built cars although a pattern of why and when this occured has not yet been established. There have been many observed differences between NOR-built Camaros and LOS-built Camaros such as the 2Z cowl tag code, the sporadic use of the rear brake proportioning valve, the cowl tag w/o code, the way the cowls were masked off for Z stripes, the start date of the 4P cowl tag code, etc, etc, and I believe this to be yet another legitimate anomaly associated with the LOS plant. I have spent a lot of time, 30+ years, researching Zs as Jerry can attest. I am trying to pass along some of what I have found out because that is what I enjoy doing and that is why I am part of CRG.
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Jon Mello
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asm69
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« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2007, 11:26:46 PM »

Thanks for your comments Olympic69 and  Mr. Jon Mello. I have compared the dimensions of my
rear trunk lid stripes to that of the AIM. They are very close especially the 5.20 gap between the
bottom of the rear window molding and the start of the stripes. As indicated in the AIM manual the
width of the stripes on my Z change from starting point to ending point. That is they are wider by the
rear glass molding and narrower at the bottom of the trunk lid. The are also curved on the top by the
rear window molding.

The picture posted by Jon Mello confirms that at least two LOS built camaro's had the larger gap between
the rear window molding and the start of the stripes. And of course Mr. Mello has commented that he has
seen other Z's with this striping as well.

My Z is a (LOS) 10D camaro, VIN sequence is 505424 with a short rear spoiler. There should be
other vehicles close to this squence that may have the same striping.

In one of the links that olympic69 posted, it was commented that "the 5.20 inch measurement is a
leftover from the 67/68 model year". So, maybe its possible that this measurement was used on
some early Z's until a change was made.

I have posted another picture of my rear stripes from the top. This picture clearly shows the curve
at the top of the stripes closest to rear window molding and of course the 5.20 gap between the
rear window molding and the start of the stripes.

I would like to hear from John Z or Jerry regarding this information
 
Valleyhugger

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Jon Mello
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« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2007, 12:20:42 AM »

Thanks for the larger picture of the trunk area. I suspect John Z or Jerry will not have seen examples of this as I believe it to be a Van Nuys plant anomaly and not something that occured at Norwood. I appreciate you submitting your VIN and cowl tag info as this can then be logged into the CRG database and we can use it to compare with other cars. It is possible that it is something that was done during a narrow window of time. There are a couple of scenarios which could account for this to occur whether accidently or by design. It is possible that the supplier for the stripe templates was not the same between the Norwood plant and the Van Nuys plant, just like the carpets were not sourced from the same supplier between the two. If it was the same supplier, the plant may have run out of the upper template [for the stripe on the rear window filler panel] and simply used the vinyl top template to avoid a line stoppage. They may have made a decision for their own plant to standardize on one template for both vinyl top and standard roof cars to simplify things and then reversed the decision either on their own for aesthetic reasons or by Central Office edict. I believe the Van Nuys plant did deliver some '69 Zs in this stripe configuration. This is similar to the situation with the early '69s with the closer ['67-'68] spaced rear stripes. Most people thought that was not legit either until it made it into Jerry's book and now it is accepted. More research is needed here but it is being worked on. I understand everyone wants to make a judgement here but keep an open mind on this one.

-Jon
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2007, 11:49:11 PM »

This discussion turned very interesting. Way to hang in there asm69.
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Gary

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Jerry@CHP
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« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2007, 02:14:29 PM »

I have seen many in my 37+ years of my involvement in the Camaro arena, but have never seen any deviations like the example shown in the photos here.  I made a tracing templet 30 years ago and have check many original cars with this templet and all have been pretty much right on the money.  I also own the original GM stencil kit that appears in my 67-68 Z28 fact book.  My personal opinion is that either plant would have never screwed up the rear stripes and their position.  They used a GM templet and that would not allow the plant worker to do something different........period.  It could not happen in my opinion.  I would have to see the car in person with my own two eyes before I changed my thoughts here.

Just passing along to this discussion.

Jerry 
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asm69
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« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2007, 03:27:11 PM »

Thanks for your response Jerry. I was just trying to find out why my stripes appear different than
others. My quest led me to find the AIM where the rear stripes specifications are very close to the
specs on my vehicle, especially the 5.20 gap between the rear window molding and the top of the
stripes. Mr Mello posted a picture of a 1969 z28 that also has a larger gap between the rear window
molding and the top of the stripes. That makes two z28's with similiar rear stripes. Mine of course is
LOS built, I'm not sure about the other one. I'm located in the Bay Area in California, email me if you
plan on being in the area, I would be happy to have you inspect it.

asm69
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Jon Mello
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« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2007, 12:32:43 AM »

I respect that Jerry has a different opinion but I know what I have seen over the years. I will work on trying to come up with more examples of this and further the research.

-Jon
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Jon Mello
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KurtS
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« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2007, 01:01:46 AM »

I've seen several original paint early LOS 69 Z's. None were painted like this.

The dealer could install the spoiler as he saw fit. Move (or not) the emblem, braze or tape the holes, etc....

What color is the wiper linkage?

And you've had the car longer than you remember, 33 years not 20. Smiley
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Kurt S
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