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Author Topic: No partial VIN on blocks  (Read 11125 times)
AFONEFE
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« on: May 13, 2007, 08:00:01 PM »

What is the groups consensus on engines that do not appear to have the partial VIN stamped on the block?  I am starting to see a few of them advertised as orginal blocks that the factory must have "forgotten" to stamp.  If this was so wouldn't the transmission also be without the VIN?  Just asking the question.  Thanks.
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2007, 08:23:30 PM »

i would think this was possible, but not common.  engine matches in my car as does all other components.  except no vin on trans, correct date ect. and i know it is original, so i guess some slipped buy.
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dab67
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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2007, 05:08:57 AM »

There were inconsistencies in the first year of the Camaro with partial vins being stamped on the pad. After 67, this was not a problem. IMO if someone is advertising a 68 or 69 without a partial vin, I would be a little suspect.

Dave
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67rscnvt
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2007, 09:04:24 AM »

My 67 has no partial vin. I assumed it was a factory replacement. The date code is a month after the car build date.
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dab67
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2007, 09:37:05 AM »

I believe your block should have a "CE" stamped on the front pad if it is a replacement.
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JohnZ
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2007, 09:43:57 AM »

I believe your block should have a "CE" stamped on the front pad if it is a replacement.

Only if it was replaced during the 5/50 warranty period. Most likely that engine came from another car after the expiration of the warranty if it has a conventional pad stamp.
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2007, 01:17:12 PM »

A few pics.... could "decking the engine" remove the partial vin and still leave the Engine stamp??
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 01:26:38 PM by 9T4Z » Logged

Gary 9T4Z

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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2007, 01:54:53 PM »

Not sure if you can "partially deck" a block., That would be a question for John and Jerry to answer. I believe a block is decked to get it back to the proper angles and smoothness to accomodate the heads.

Dave
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2007, 03:36:00 PM »

A friend with a 65 vette is having his engine rebuilt.  They are "decking" his block.  He CLAIMS that he is having his engine vin "restamped" by some Vette specialists who claim to have the authority to do so... and hence justify a fee of $400 for examination and authentication prior to doing the restamp...

Has anyone heard of this... he told me today when was in for a visit but I sort of acted a bit skeptical as if this was legit... then wouldn't it be another opening for "forgeries"?

anyone??
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Gary 9T4Z

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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2007, 01:49:54 PM »

A few pics.... could "decking the engine" remove the partial vin and still leave the Engine stamp??

You could do that with a 3-axis mill, but it would be VERY obvious.
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2007, 01:53:30 PM »

A friend with a 65 vette is having his engine rebuilt.  They are "decking" his block.  He CLAIMS that he is having his engine vin "restamped" by some Vette specialists who claim to have the authority to do so... and hence justify a fee of $400 for examination and authentication prior to doing the restamp...

Has anyone heard of this... he told me today when was in for a visit but I sort of acted a bit skeptical as if this was legit... then wouldn't it be another opening for "forgeries"?

anyone??

Nobody has the "authority" to restamp a block pad, but it's a very common practice, and has been going on for decades as a result of the quest for "matching numbers". $300-$500 is about the going rate for those who provide that "service".
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2007, 02:32:01 PM »

With the way things are going with these forgeries, is there any possibility of someone going to the trouble of setting up a broaching operation to replicate the original block deck machining process?? Is it possible? Would it be financially viable?

Jimmy V.
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Jimmy V.
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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2007, 09:44:30 AM »

There are numerous methods used to replicate factory broach marks; some are better than others, but none of them will stand up under close scrutiny (magnification). It takes more than just parallel lines.
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2007, 12:12:31 AM »

what is your opinion on this stamp.no partial vin on block but stamped on powerglide.
july 68 327

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Sebastien 68  327 rag top
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2007, 09:04:09 AM »

i am not an expert, but the numbers were in a gang style holder. the numbers should be staright. the M E at the end looks to have been stamped individually.
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2007, 09:12:11 AM »

It's impossible to evaluate a stamp pad with paint on it.
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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2007, 11:49:20 AM »

alright,I'll clean it and re-post it later.
the pad should be left without paint anyway doesn't it?
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Sebastien 68  327 rag top
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2007, 10:42:56 AM »

Yes, the pad should be bare - it was masked with a piece of tape at the engine plant when the engine was painted. A painted pad is always a "red flag" to me, as it hides all the detail of the stampings and the pad surface; in NCRS judging, a painted pad results in a total deduction of all the pad and stamping points.
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« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2007, 01:50:30 PM »

thats gpood to know john. i just painted my block, and the pad as well. i thought the paint had just peeled off the pad.
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69 x77 burnished brown, 711 int 05A bought in 78
67 rs/ss 350 butternut yellow 4 speed 2nd owner
70 Z28 forrest green, green int, M40, bk vinyl roof PROJECT
99 SS hugger orange 6spd NO TTOPS bought new 1 of 54
11 cts-v blk diamond  edition wagon 556hp sick!
9T4Z
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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2007, 03:48:06 PM »

A friend with a 65 vette is having his engine rebuilt.  They are "decking" his block.  He CLAIMS that he is having his engine vin "restamped" by some Vette specialists who claim to have the authority to do so... and hence justify a fee of $400 for examination and authentication prior to doing the restamp...

Has anyone heard of this... he told me today when was in for a visit but I sort of acted a bit skeptical as if this was legit... then wouldn't it be another opening for "forgeries"?

anyone??

Nobody has the "authority" to restamp a block pad, but it's a very common practice, and has been going on for decades as a result of the quest for "matching numbers". $300-$500 is about the going rate for those who provide that "service".

Spoke to my friend with the vette.... his date code is good and he has decided that the $400 to "restamp" was a bad idea.   He has a "correct" car even though not numbers matching.... why raise a whole bunch of red flags for what purpose.  I think he appriciated our comments.
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Gary 9T4Z

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« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2007, 03:51:26 PM »

What is the groups consensus on engines that do not appear to have the partial VIN stamped on the block?  I am starting to see a few of them advertised as orginal blocks that the factory must have "forgotten" to stamp.  If this was so wouldn't the transmission also be without the VIN?  Just asking the question.  Thanks.

I too was confused as to why some had partial vins and others only the engine code.  Then I read in the FAQ that Norwood stopped stamping partial vins on the upper pad in December 1968 and moved to the rough cast area near the oil filter.  Explains why some 69's can have either configuration..... anyone else notice this?
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Gary 9T4Z

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« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2007, 11:56:23 PM »

what is your opinion on this stamp.no partial vin on block but stamped on powerglide.
july 68 327
Surprised there's no VIN.
But at first glance, I'd say the stamp is probably OK. No offense intended at all, but who would restamp a 210 hp motor....
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Kurt S
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« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2007, 10:59:17 PM »

Quoted from 69 Camaro FAQ's
"Engine Partial VIN stamping:
Some Van Nuys-built (LOS/VN) cars had the VIN stamped on the pad of the block and some had the VIN stamped down by the oil filter. Sometime in October of 1968, we believe the stamp was moved to the oil filter, but by sometime around February of 1969 we believe the stamp moved back up to the pad."

I own block V0109DZ which came out of 19L518297. I've deduced that this car's build date was approximately 01C, 9th day of production for Jan '69, Jan 12th?, and the partial vin was stamped on the front pad next to the DZ stamp.
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rich69rs
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« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2007, 11:36:37 AM »

OK. No offense intended at all, but who would restamp a 210 hp motor....

No offense intended either - but the obvious answer is someone who is trying to restore their original base ride to as high a quality as any muscled up clone. 
Most of us value our base coupes and convertilbles as highly as those that have the ground pounders.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 11:40:53 AM by rich69rs » Logged

Richard Thomas
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2007, 12:45:03 AM »

Quote
I own block V0109DZ which came out of 19L518297.

Umm, do you realize this car is still out there?
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Kurt S
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2007, 03:07:11 AM »

Quote
I own block V0109DZ which came out of 19L518297.

Umm, do you realize this car is still out there?

Well I've owned the block close to 10 years, where's the car?
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KurtS
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« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2007, 01:04:04 AM »

Last I knew it was still in the LA area, below you.
Email me.
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Kurt S
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« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2007, 02:12:53 PM »

My 10c Oct 68  LA built RS has the partial VIN near the oil filter but with the engine in the car its impossible to get a clear pic or visual on it, all I can see are faint numbers in the rough casting. Someday when it comes out I can then confirm the partial.
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« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2007, 06:45:31 PM »

A little update guys.... I could not find the partial vin on the stamped area of my 05A Norwood car.  I cleaned the cast area above the oil filter, carefully removing paint and primers.... still could not see anything with it in the car....just looked like odd scratches and such

Assumed no partial vin... even when the engine had been out we did not see it as it had been painted several times...
]
Here is the deal...

My brother got out a black light and yellow glasses that are used to trace the dye put into trtace fluid leaks...makes the dye glow.
WELL we could actually make out numbers faintly stamped into the cast area... still we could not get our old eyes to focus and not good for a camera angle... but we know there is something there...

So black light will show up numbers in the cast area!  Next time we are going to rub some of the dye onto the casting, then wipe away the excess... and see if the glow agent settles into the stampings...

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Gary 9T4Z

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« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2007, 10:34:07 PM »

Quoted from 69 Camaro FAQ's
"Engine Partial VIN stamping:
Some Van Nuys-built (LOS/VN) cars had the VIN stamped on the pad of the block and some had the VIN stamped down by the oil filter. Sometime in October of 1968, we believe the stamp was moved to the oil filter, but by sometime around February of 1969 we believe the stamp moved back up to the pad."


I also have pics of V1226DZ with vin 19L516579 stamped on the pad, this is a 01B L.A. car with a F or 6th day of production month on the trim tag. I estimate this car's production day is approximately Jan 9th '69.
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melav8r
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« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2011, 01:26:42 PM »

Quote
I own block V0109DZ which came out of 19L518297.

Umm, do you realize this car is still out there?

Well I've owned the block close to 10 years, where's the car?

I was contacted by the owner of the above car a while back.
Unfortunately for him, the blocked was decked, the partial vin which was on the front pad is gone, the DZ stamp is still somewhat legible and distinguishable as "V0109DZ".
What value, if any, would having this block back in the original car be?
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x77-69z28
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« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2011, 03:05:06 PM »

it would certainly have a value. not sure how much, but if it is THE original motor, it should go back in it. all the date codes would obviously be correct.
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69 x77 burnished brown, 711 int 05A bought in 78
67 rs/ss 350 butternut yellow 4 speed 2nd owner
70 Z28 forrest green, green int, M40, bk vinyl roof PROJECT
99 SS hugger orange 6spd NO TTOPS bought new 1 of 54
11 cts-v blk diamond  edition wagon 556hp sick!
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« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2011, 04:42:09 PM »

Just for the sake of information - I have seen a block from an early '69 commercial chassis (large) truck that did not have a partial VIN derivative stamp. I do not know if the VIN derivative stamp requirement applied to large truck chassis vehicles or not but this one never had a stamp.

The process of stamping a VIN derivative on the rough cast bellhousing area only applied to engines that had the alternator installed in front on the passenger side. That was the only reason to move the VIN derivative stamping operation down to the bellhousing area. The labor required using the previous method to pull the alternator off, stamp the upper pad, and re-install the alternator on the line was the reason the procedure was changed for the vehicles where it made sense. Not all vehicles were stamped that way.

-Mark.
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Petes L48
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« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2011, 05:51:26 PM »

The engine and trans partial VINs were stamped before the alternator was installed, so it was not a matter of having to go back and remove the alternator but more of a consideration of being able to read it once the alternator was mounted.  Norwood used the pad up to around December 68 and Van Nuys varied between the pad and oil filter area thoughout the model year.

http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#PadStamps
   
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melav8r
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« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2011, 06:13:24 PM »

it would certainly have a value. not sure how much, but if it is THE original motor, it should go back in it. all the date codes would obviously be correct.

As I previously mentioned, the partial vin was stamped on the front pad and I did record the vin number.
However, after I informed the owner that the block had been decked and that the partial vin was no longer visible he didn't seem too interested in re-joining it with the car.
Unfortunately for him, I'm the only witness who can attest to the vin stamping.
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Stingr69
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« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2011, 09:39:37 PM »

The engine and trans partial VINs were stamped before the alternator was installed, so it was not a matter of having to go back and remove the alternator but more of a consideration of being able to read it once the alternator was mounted.  Norwood used the pad up to around December 68 and Van Nuys varied between the pad and oil filter area thoughout the model year.

http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#PadStamps
   

Engine build date/suffix stamp was stamped at the engine plant when the engine was assembled (before the alternator was installed) but the VIN derivative was stamped later just as the car and powertrain was being mated. There isn't any reason to "read the VIN derivative or the engine suffix/date stamp later". You certainly can't read it on the side of the block down by the bellhousing once the engine was installed so that doesn't hold water. Engine and transmission were both VIN derivative stamped at the same station with the same gang stamp. Jerry MacNeish says the alt was removed and replaced on the early '69 cars before the change and it makes sense to modify the process to save labor if you think about it. I have to believe him unless we get a better story or some reason to believe otherwise.

-Mark.
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JohnZ
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« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2011, 11:55:06 AM »

I don't think we'll ever know why Norwood elected to change the process sequence for the engine VIN derivative stamping operation and move it from the pad to the oil filter area after four months of '69 production. The engine was bare-naked when it arrived from the engine plant and there was wide-open access to stamp it on the front pad (the alternator was installed at Norwood, not at the engine plant), so they must have made some sort of rearrangement of operations on the engine dress line such that the VIN had to be stamped after installing the alternator instead of before the alternator.
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« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2011, 12:45:15 PM »

08D Partial VIN by the oil filter.
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