Author Topic: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?  (Read 4176 times)

BULLITT65

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1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« on: February 21, 2023, 06:52:20 PM »
I saw this car listed recently and while I know its is not an original JL8 car, but I am trying tot get clarification on the trim tag, and if it looks like a legit X33 car.

Not great pics, console gauges were likely added since there is not a clock present.
VIN : 124379N635777
https://www.gaaclassiccars.com/vehicles/37122/1969-chevrolet-camaro-z28-rs
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

william

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2023, 08:19:55 PM »
Who cares?

The car in the lead photo is not an RS, later pics show RS. Lots of trunk and floor patching, amateur restoration.
Learning more and more about less and less...

BULLITT65

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2023, 08:39:15 PM »
Well I have members ask me and if it isn't clear, I will ask them to post it on the CRG. So with a car that has had SO much work done to it, with RS added, and being advertised as a JL8 (which it isn't), I thought well perhaps the is not even a real Z/28 to begin with. It is no different than the ebay auctions that others post where a car is for sale as something it really isn't imo
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

David K

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2023, 06:32:26 PM »
I find it interesting the way the trim tag and engine pad pictures are sort of clear…but not very clear. I never saw a vin. Without that, I assume it’s not matching or legit. Spending the money to have Jerry certify it is money we’ll spent.

BULLITT65

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2023, 06:57:17 PM »
I think once Jerry Certifies a car, at least you know a good set of eyes has been on it, at one point. Very often I see a cert from Jerry, but it could be from many years ago *or you won't see the report just the cert, so you don't have any other details on the car. Which can be scary because I believe the re-body green 69Z (somebody famous owned) ended up getting a cert. If a car like that misplaces the report and has the cert, could there be others out there.
Ex:  a certed Z car that Jerry may have called out for having a re-stamped motor or trans or rear end in the report. If a potential buyer sees it years later they may hav no idea it has a re-stamped anything just by seeing the cert. Which is not on Jerry, since he called it out originally, but just like window stickers and P.O.P, sometimes things go missing.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

KurtS

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2023, 04:10:00 AM »
I personally find the certificates as unnecessary window dressing. Instead of posting the appraisal, people post the cert. Misdirection - 'See, it has a cert!'.
Kurt S
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BULLITT65

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2023, 07:28:13 AM »
I agree somewhat and see where you are coming from. So you think an appraisal holds more weight, I take it ? I can't remember the last time someone had a real appraisal and used it as a selling point for a 1st gen. Now I know auction houses have the 'pre-sale estimates' but I assumed those are just by some flunky.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

169INDY

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2023, 07:30:39 AM »
I think Kurt is calling the Page #2 of the JM-Cert the "Appraisal of noted conditions and issues."

maybe??
Jim
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68 Z28 M21 LOS

Kelley W King

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2023, 12:10:53 PM »
Never trust a JL8 car when the seller mispells brakes (breaks) lol
69 Z28 RS Scuncio Hi Performance
69 SS L78
67 SS Chevelle
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BULLITT65

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2023, 01:48:53 PM »
😆
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

Stingr69

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2023, 03:34:44 PM »
SOLD $97K  O-M-G! 


BULLITT65

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2023, 04:26:46 PM »
Thats the exact reason to bring up a car like this. I see a car like this and the JL8 was an obvious red flag, but then it makes you question the legitimacy of the rest of the car. How many hands will this car pass through and be touted as JL8 before someone realizes it was just a modified rear disc package added. 🙄
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

cook_dw

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2023, 04:37:02 PM »
97.2% of the people will see orange, Z and see it has JL8 and they will cream their shorts to own it..  Most of the 69 Z guys are funny like that..   ;D

BULLITT65

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2023, 06:12:31 AM »
Good point DW. The rest of us 69Z guys are not funny...🙃

There is a 69Z registry group on FB. It has its ups and downs. Think of Team Camaro. We try to keep it pretty tight and focused just on the 69Z. But there are many guys that are fly by the seat of your pants, buy first, verify second. Most of us try to steer the members in the right direction, but it so surprising to me the number of guys, with more money than sense. I would assume there have always been guys like that in the hobby since the beginning. It takes all types I suppose. 🙂
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

KurtS

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2023, 04:39:21 AM »
Have power again. :)
I was referring to JM appraisals. He provides the appraisal (3 pages) and the certificate. And sellers often only show the certificate.
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David K

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2023, 02:10:41 AM »
Cook…I’m am in the 2.8% group and proud of it.

BULLITT65

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2023, 02:37:22 AM »
Kurt the other pages of the report Jerry does assess each car in the sense of the word "appraisal", but it seems less of a valuation. To those of us that can follow it and understand the significance it works as a good comprehensive evaluation.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

68 Ragtop

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2023, 02:53:12 AM »
Kurt the other pages of the report Jerry does assess each car in the sense of the word "appraisal", but it seems less of a valuation. To those of us that can follow it and understand the significance it works as a good comprehensive evaluation.

Exactly. Those of us that can follow and understand know that the certificate is worthless without the attached appraisal. It is printed on pretty paper and looks impressive to those that do not know. Not sure why you felt a need to explain that to Kurt, I am pretty sure he has seen a thing or two.

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2023, 03:29:43 AM »
The extra pages often point out everything that’s wrong. That’s why sellers trash the extra pages and keep the certificate sometimes.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

David K

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2023, 04:22:44 AM »
An educated enthusiast would probably contact Jerry to verify all the paperwork is there.

BULLITT65

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2023, 05:29:27 AM »
Kurt the other pages of the report Jerry does assess each car in the sense of the word "appraisal", but it seems less of a valuation. To those of us that can follow it and understand the significance it works as a good comprehensive evaluation.

Exactly. Those of us that can follow and understand know that the certificate is worthless without the attached appraisal. It is printed on pretty paper and looks impressive to those that do not know. Not sure why you felt a need to explain that to Kurt, I am pretty sure he has seen a thing or two.

just that it is less of a value appraisal vs as Bryon states it is actually the useful info of what is incorrect or (wrong). I guess to me when I hear the word "appraisal " I think of someone actually putting a dollar amount to an object is all. 🙂
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2023, 09:47:13 AM »
If someone had the time and resources, they could start swapping out original parts for restamps 30 seconds after the inspection ends. Or if a certificate is just a few days old, strange things can happen like a piston coming through the side of the block. Now don’t get me wrong, having a car looked at is great. But in my mind - the older the inspection is, the less value it has. Buyers ALWAYS need to do THEIR OWN homework and inspection.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

camaronut

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2023, 12:19:06 PM »
Nevermind....I'm not opening a can of worms.

cook_dw

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2023, 02:03:33 PM »
If someone had the time and resources, they could start swapping out original parts for restamps 30 seconds after the inspection ends. Or if a certificate is just a few days old, strange things can happen like a piston coming through the side of the block. Now don’t get me wrong, having a car looked at is great. But in my mind - the older the inspection is, the less value it has. Buyers ALWAYS need to do THEIR OWN homework and inspection.

And that is what someone will try to cash in on once JM retires or sells the company.

BULLITT65

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2023, 03:52:15 PM »
I think the inspection is something (currently) that can hold value to buyers and sellers, but it is a huge undertaking. Additionally as time marches on will the inspection be as valuable ? All of the passionate numbers matching guys and people that want a correct car, may be less and less and it may not be as important to have a 1st gen Camaro inspected. Perhaps the MCACN or the Camaro Nationals will be the future outlet if people want certification of some sort.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

68 Ragtop

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2023, 03:58:25 PM »
Kurt the other pages of the report Jerry does assess each car in the sense of the word "appraisal", but it seems less of a valuation. To those of us that can follow it and understand the significance it works as a good comprehensive evaluation.

Exactly. Those of us that can follow and understand know that the certificate is worthless without the attached appraisal. It is printed on pretty paper and looks impressive to those that do not know. Not sure why you felt a need to explain that to Kurt, I am pretty sure he has seen a thing or two.

just that it is less of a value appraisal vs as Bryon states it is actually the useful info of what is incorrect or (wrong). I guess to me when I hear the word "appraisal " I think of someone actually putting a dollar amount to an object is all. 🙂

Have you actually seen a complete JM appraisal-certificate of authenticity? I am certain Kurt S has. It consists of at least 3 things: 1. A nice "certificate" printed on fancy paper suitable for framing and putting on your wall. 2. The meat of the report. Of course this is the most important part. 3. The appraisal. This is the actual dollar amount at the time of the report. Of course all of this is all in the opinion of the certifier-appraiser and is good as his experience and reputation allow. (Which is highly rated BTW).

On a completely different subject, what ever happened to COPO Connection?

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2023, 09:02:38 PM »
I am just telling you, most guys take the certificate and never show the rest.

Appraisals can vary by date and location. An appraisal is an opinion. Markets fluctuate.

Long story on COPO Connection. Gone and not coming back.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

68 Ragtop

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2023, 02:38:55 AM »
I am just telling you, most guys take the certificate and never show the rest.

Appraisals can vary by date and location. An appraisal is an opinion. Markets fluctuate.

Long story on COPO Connection. Gone and not coming back.

Yeah, I get it. Most guys also buy first, ask questions later. We all know how that turns out.

I saw a guy on FB recently that quoted an article that said all 1968 Z/28's had a VIN starting with 124378, and his car started with 124378, therefore it was a genuine Z/28. Same kind of logic as "it has a certificate, so it must be genuine".

David K

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2023, 02:42:07 AM »
If I ever am in the position to buy a car that needed Jerry’s stamp of approval, the inspection and sale would take place the same day. All I’m looking for is for verification and justification of what my hard earned money will buy. .02

camaronut

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2023, 02:34:33 PM »
Most people who want our cars don't care about numbers that match or a certificate.  I've plenty of people who wanted to buy my car at shows / cruises. Had a gent approach me a few years back that wanted my car so bad - he would have paid my "You really want this" price.  I told him I had no pedigree / papers, etc.  He could have cared less. 

I chickened out and kept my car. 

It'll be my coffin.  ;D

rich69rs

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2023, 04:40:07 PM »
Most people who want our cars don't care about numbers that match or a certificate.  I've plenty of people who wanted to buy my car at shows / cruises.

Totally agree and I have also had many offers over the years for my lowly NOR 01C base V8 ‘69 RS, especially at “Hot August Nights” in Reno (which I have participated in every year since 2001.)

When I bought my car off of the showroom floor of the Chevy dealership in Baton Rouge, LA in November 1991 (it had been traded in), I was not concerned at all that the original 307 was long gone and that it had a 327 from a ‘64 Impala in it.  The car was solid, it ran, and over the years I went completely through it - mechanicals first, including complete sub-frame removal, engine (replaced the ‘64 Impala engine with a ‘69 327 Camaro engine / Nov ‘68 build), tranny, rear end, cleaning the under body, cleaning, painting, restoring components & sub-assemblies, etc.  Point being that all of the mechanical work was broken down into various sub projects, with one being attacked each winter in the garage & finished by spring so the car was driveable.  The mechanical work was finally wrapped up in 2008.  During that entire time (Nov 1991-2008) my ride was never unavailable to me from Spring to early Fall which allowed me to drive and enjoy it every year when the weather was good.

From Sep 2013 - April 2014 the car was taken down to bare metal and re-painted.

My ride is obviously not original, it has the original Powerglide & 2.73:1 open rear end, and a Nov ‘68 built 327 Camaro engine, but I enjoy it, drive it, and am not overly concerned about originality.  One positive, IMHO, of having a car where non-originality isn’t going to impact value, is the ability to make changes/improvements (some safety related - new wiring harnesses for example).

Bottom line is that undoubtedly most 1st Gen Camaro owners do not own high $$, number matching Z’s, etc but have a car similar to mine which are driven and enjoyed as much (if not more) than any other 1st Gen Camaro .

0.02

Richard

Richard Thomas
1969 RS

BULLITT65

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Re: 1969 Camaro trim tag legit?
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2023, 05:08:00 PM »
Richard your one of the few owners that doesn't need the ultra praise of having, COPO, SS, Z, for guys to say how cool it is. Your car is awesome to me, and a rare sight these days, when every 1st gen is badged as some special HP version of the car. The issue is all the rebadged cars. Will guys pay up for an original HP car, or will the SS Z COPO tribute cars be more attractive and less guys wanting to get into the can of worms of numbers matching and all.
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV