69 Headlight washer system T-Valves & Y-Connector - Follow-up

[Dave69x33]

I originally posted a few questions on this topic years ago but need to follow-up with a few more questions.

I need to find a source to replace the Y-Connector fitting on my headlight washer hoses shown below.  Thanks to CRG member Edgemontvillage for this photo showing the restoration on this wiper motor and washer pump assembly. BTW...he does outstanding work!  I am going to reverse engineer a CAD file on the Y-Connector and find a source that can rapid prototype it if I cannot find a source that already reproduces it. I believe Corvettes and other Chevrolets from that time period ('69 - '72?) that had headlight washers may also use the same or similar fitting. This connector was used on '69 Camaros that came with the RS or CE1 (non-RS) headlight washer option.,

I need to also fine a source that makes accurate wiper motor foil decals with part number and date code as shown. This is the decal Edgemontvillage posted in his thread. The font and offset typeset is spot on.  I found sources on the internet for the foil decals but they are not as accurate.

Thanks in advance for your tips and recommendations!
Dave

[Dave69x33]

BTW, I purchased a Y-Connector from Kevin Wright out of Perrineville, NJ back in about 2006.  That connector became brittle and I noticed last night it broke into (3) pieces, with a portion of the connector in the end of the (3) hoses.  I believe Kevin had a mold made and had a batch of the connectors made.  Unfortunately I no longer have Kevin's contact info.

If anyone has Kevin's contact info, I would greatly appreciate it!

[KevinW]

I still have my mold, but have not done any molding in many years. I might still have one from the run I did long ago, but I will have to see if mine are brittle too.  Did you have it mounted and the underhood heat may have effected it?

[KevinW]

With todays 3-d printing that might be the way to go, but I do not have that setup

[Dave69x33]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the quick reply. I had the fitting mounted in place since 2006. Perhaps the under hood heat effected the plastic. I had to run hot water over and thru the hoses to soften them to pull out the broken off tube pieces from the hoses.  Otherwise the plastic would break apart with the small needle nose pliers.

Dave

[David K]

Dave,
Is this for a high end car?

[Dave69x33]

David K,

It’s for my highly optioned ‘69 RS Z28 that I purchased in 1995, and restored between 1995-2000.  During the 2000 Camaro Nationals held in Columbus, OH, I was honored to score 973/1000 for a Gold Award. Over the years I have learned more details about 1st Gens and accurate restorations, and specifically on the ‘69 since that is what I own. CRG has been one of my favorite go-to sites.  It’s a great fraternity of 1st Gen Camaro folks, and contains a ton of resources.

Each winter I pick a part or area on my car to correct, update, or redo components. I drive my Z28 so an occasional component refresh is necessary. For example the plating on the brake booster and master cylinder lid needed a refresh, or tackle the RS headlight component to troubleshoot why my headlight doors will not fully open and close, or find a correct date coded part that was not either not available, or I could not justify purchasing, at the time I restored my car.  My “anal Camaro originally” side of me wants to find NOS parts if they are the most appropriate source, or source accurate quality reproduction parts that may be available.  Input from folks on CRG has been a big help. This winter’s projects include a correction on my wiper motor, replacing the old broke Y-connector hose fitting, and painting the front calipers and the brake proportioning valve black.

More recently I have been making corrections I learned about from the ‘69 Vintage Judging Manual, and/or from reading Jerry MacNeish’s books and certification reports. This past November I help coordinated a group of (6) Camaros for JM to evaluated in the Indianapolis area where I live. Unfortunately, due to some unexpected home expenses that popped up, I had to pull my car from the group. I did attend the evaluation on (2) very nice ‘69 Z28s and got to meet Jerry and Norm, Jerry’s assistant who schedules the trips and certifications. I helped a friend get his very original ‘69 JL8 Z28 (interestingly built in Norwood the same month as my Z28) to the shop where JM was doing the evaluations.  The engine and trans were out of his car at the time so we loaded his car in my trailer, and the engine, transmission, and some parts in his truck; a challenging but fun vacation day!  I plan to reschedule with JM sometime in 2023.

All told I guess I cannot “leave well enough alone”. It’s like the Hertz Rental Car commercial that was popular a couple years ago…when my wife ask “I thought you said the Camaro was done!?!  My response, “Not exactly.”  It’s the “exact” part of my response that gets me in trouble…LOL!

[David K]

I get the “almost done”. I calculated how much I was willing to spend to factory correct numbers matching my 68 back in 1993 after wrecking it. It was just way too much to contemplate, and so I just did a stock resto with the factory options I picked up along the way to upgrade it.
I also know a car like yours is a commitment all the way, but the piecemeal is definitely the way to approach it. Curious where your 27 points went.

[Dave69x33]

DaveK,

Good question. That award is dated June 18, 2000.  I’ll dig up the score sheet and post them as I don’t recall where I lost points.

[Dave69x33]

I found my judge sheets from what was called the Worldwide Camaro Association and the US Camaro club (USCC) in the 1990's thru early 2000. The USCC would hold shows and judge events around the US. I attended a few in the Midwest to see how judging was done, and see a lot of very nice restored Camaros.  I finished the restoration on my '69Z in early 2000 and attended the show held in Columbus, OH.  I could have returned the following year for the Diamond Class judging but could not attend.  The Diamond Class judging then was on par with the Legend level judging done today evaluating originality, accuracy/authenticity including correct "factory released" date coded components, cleanliness, and correct color finishes, plating, etc., and that everything functions.  Keep in mind that an NOS part could be a GM dealer service part, which may be slightly different than what was originally installed on the Camaros when they rolled off the assembly line. 

I have not been to a Camaro Nationals show with judging since 2000, but I believe the judging format, depending on the level you are going for, is similar to the judge sheets shown below.  Much has changed since 2000 and we now have access to more reference materials that provide documented detail on 1st Gen Camaros not available 20+ years ago, thanks to folks like Jerry MacNeish and his 1st Gen Fact Books and certification reports, Alan Colvin's Chevrolet by the Numbers books, the Legends Judging Manual, this CRG website, and the Camaros.net to name a few.

Regarding my judge sheets:
 - The paint work has been finessed
 - The seal along the cowl panel was too stiff and caused the hood to not close flat and even with the front fenders...loose/worn hood hinges can also cause this
 - I used NOS emblems and the paint was not perfect on them...but they were NOS...LOL!
 - NOS weather strip and seals replaced the repros
 - I have no idea what was wrong with my glove box and window cranks which were GM NOS
 - The front seat covers have been redone
 - Air cleaner is a GM unit but not a flat bottom as released from the factory on early to mid-year build Camaros. Don't recall when the change was made to the air cleaner housing with the raised
   rib about the bottom surface
 - Under hood cleanliness...I drive the car so it's hard to clean every nook and cranny!
 - Trunk, Jack & Instructions...it had the wrong part number jack instruction decal...I corrected that ASAP!

[Dave69x33]

They averaged the scores from the (3) judge sheets.

[Dave69x33]

Hope this helps other folks who are planning to get their cars judged this year!

[David K]

Thanks for the Upload sheets. I never got to the USCC or WW shows due to distance, but attended the ICC shows in the Poconos….I lived in Northern Virginia. Things were definitely different then in the judging. And I met a lot of nice people at these shows….every once in awhile there was the occasional dick, but it happens. My car was and won’t ever be a high end one like yours because I like mine the way it it….and you as well….and everyone else like theres. That high end judging isn’t for everyone, but it’s great to see them up close as they were “as built”.

That being said, judging has to be taken with a big grain of salt. As I have recently been told, there are definite inconsistencies and incorrect information in published reference material that’s concerning for those who want to go that route….we’ll just leave it at that.

I do plan on making an East coast visit and Morgantown (someone warn Karl Sheffy)😆😆😆😆

What did you do about the glove box and window cranks?🤦‍♂️🤔🤔.

[z28z11]

Your problem with NOS door handles (and other NOS parts) could (likely) stem from design/mold changes over the life of the service parts, which we have all seen from time to time. I bought as many NOS parts as I could for my X77 between 1978 or so until recent years, some of which are from older toolings that were continually rebuilt (like fan shroud molds - some of the later ones show as many as 4-5 mold repair events stamped in the part). I've got two NOS front spoilers that I bought from GM at the same time, could be from two different vendors but under the same part number, look slightly different down to a different part number stamping and font, and different edge finishing. Even Lloyd's very nice wiper motor restoration has at least one very visible reproduction flaw that stands out to an inspector that knows what to look for on the RS wiper motors (and might not be noticed by by a less familiar eye). Judging, to me, is still subjective no matter what the manual states - it still has to be interpreted.

Just my opinion -
Steve

[Dave69x33]

David K,

I agree, there are some inconsistencies with the judging.  I think it is a natural part of the hobby as it continues to mature.  Books like the '69 Legends Judge Manual help but I have found some additional detail and pictures I think should be included in that manual.   Perhaps a future edition update will include this detail. 

Window Crank Handles - I learned a few thinks from Jerry MacNeish while he was in Indy this past November evaluating a friend's very nice X77 Z28.  One issue JM noted on his car; the front window cranks were incorrect. The front and rear window cranks are slightly different as shown below. I borrowed this picture from Heartbeat City Camaro (HBC) as they offer a clear picture showing the difference. Notice that the front crank handle GM #9715191 has a sharper radius in the handle than the rear handle GM #9717838. I confirmed the front and rear crank handles are different when I looked them up in my Master GM Camaro 1967 - 69 Parts Catalog (July 1969 issue date). I don't recall exactly why the crank handles are different, but I believe the front handle is offset a bit further away from the door panel so that it does not rub.  I have the same issue with my '69 and need to correct the front window crank handles eventually.  HBC Camaro offers nice quality reproduction crank handles.

Glove Box - I am not sure what was wrong with my glove box. A few years ago I replaced the glove box attachment hardware with the correct hardware I found at AMK Products. I need to study and get pictures of a glove box in a survivor car to compare it with my repro glove box.

Dave

 

[Dave69x33]

Steve,

I'll check it out again but what restoration flaw is in Lloyd's wiper motor?

Dave

[Dave69x33]

BTW, the ‘69 Legends Judge Manual does not mention the difference noted above between the ‘69 front and rear window crank handles, despite going into tons of detail about interiors. JM help draft the judge manual but the detail on the window crank handles was not mentioned yet it was noted in a cert report.  The Legends Judge Manual is well done and a great resource, but I am already looking forward to the next edition…lol!

[KevinW]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the front window cranks for Deluxe door panels!  These are a totally different front crank than the standard front or even the rear (even though rear cranks for Deluxe interior are the same part no). 

[z28z11]

Steve,

I'll check it out again but what restoration flaw is in Lloyd's wiper motor?

Dave

 Involves the printing on the solenoid coil end frame. Reproductions are not the same as the original manufacturer -

[z28z11]

BTW, the ‘69 Legends Judge Manual does not mention the difference noted above between the ‘69 front and rear window crank handles, despite going into tons of detail about interiors. JM help draft the judge manual but the detail on the window crank handles was not mentioned yet it was noted in a cert report.  The Legends Judge Manual is well done and a great resource, but I am already looking forward to the next edition…lol!
[/quote

BTW, the ‘69 Legends Judge Manual does not mention the difference noted above between the ‘69 front and rear window crank handles, despite going into tons of detail about interiors. JM help draft the judge manual but the detail on the window crank handles was not mentioned yet it was noted in a cert report.  The Legends Judge Manual is well done and a great resource, but I am already looking forward to the next edition…lol!

Original crank handles are really flat to the panels, more evident on the rear cranks. I surmise it changed or was superseded early on. Later service and maybe mid production cranks have more ‘arch’ in my view. I would welcome opinions -

Steve

[Dave69x33]

Steve,

I saw the additional ink stamping info on the end face of the reproduction headlight washer solenoid coil.  I assume it was stamped on service replacement coils but not included on factory released originals?  My assumption is based on the view of your original wiper motor assembly, in the CRG topic "RS Headlight Washer Solenoid Wiring" and views other folks have shared under that topic. The NOS service replacement coil shown below includes the ink stamping on the end face. I believe Lloyd shared that photo from his '69 RS Z28 restoration.

I hope you and Lloyd don't mind that borrowed the views of your coils shown below to clarify this point.

The reproduction headlight washer assembly is a well done piece. I wonder if WD40 can be used to clean off the ink stamping on the end face?  Personally, if I had a NOS replacement coil I would leave the ink stamping on the unit and save the box to prove it was a NOS piece. 

P.S. Hope my wife does not find all the NOS boxes and wrappings I have saved over the years...LoL!

Dave

[z28z11]

Whoever wrote the "did not appear on original coils" must not have looked at very many, or at a still-legible end frame. I assure you it is there, unfortunately you have to squint to see mine underneath 55 year old crud (I very carefully did NOT try to clean it off due to the apparent fragility of the ink or paint). If you inspect it under magnification, the lettering is identical to service parts, for a very good reason - same supplier did all of them. I researched and contacted the OEM many years ago, verified who they were and what they supplied (this was laborious, before the internet and Google heyday, when you had to read things and make phone calls). Rochester Division of A/C (Rochester NY) stamped the coil date and the part number likely when they received the valve assembly from the supplier before valve installation and shipping. From all of my research, they were batch built, as there seems to be a small date sample from the originals I've ever researched. I have two NOS "service" coils, and at least one other original (other than this one) that all have identical part numbers and info.

If you remove the printing as specified by whoever suggested it, you will be incorrect in my honest estimation. As usual, just my opinion - 

Regards,
Steve

P.S. I should have added you should leave the end frame part number, and remove the reproduction GM number from the side and restamp/ink it. The GM number they applied looks far worse that than the OEM part number on the end of the coil frame in my view.

[Dave69x33]

Good to know Steve. Thanks for the info!

[David K]

Did you find your Y connector?

[KevinW]

I just looked in my part drawers and still have about 10 Y connecters from the same run as Dave69x33's one.  They do not feel brittle, but I would think underhood heat could play a role. If the washer is not functional, filling the internal holes with something might help keep it solid.   

[David K]

Are you going to use that water pump or is it just for good looks?

[Dave69x33]

I reversed engineered the Y-Connector fitting I purchased from KevinW years ago and had a friend with a rapid prototyping machine printer make a prototype connector. The 2nd piece he made turned out well and I installed it on my car. 

The trick is to "grow" the part with the Y-Connector in the vertical position (like the letter "Y"). In this orientation, the internal passages are cleaner.  I used drill bits to hand ream the passage ways to make sure there was no residual plastic in the passages. The plastic material is durable and should hold up well. If you place KevinW's modeled plastic connector side-by-side with my rapid prototyped connector, you can see differences. The rapid prototyping piece shows the layers as the plastic was formed to make the part, and the raised nibs are not as pronounced.  However, the hoses fit well and snug on the connector, and they cover 90%+ of the connector so it does not show as the hose joint is positioned below the wiper motor.

Love this technology!

[Dave69x33]

Here is my rough sketch of the Y-Connector. Eventually I will model it in AutoCAD as a .stp file or in SolidWorks.  Once the sketch is model in CAD, the model can be process direct to the rapid prototyping machine to make one. I wanted to share it in case anyone else with a rapid prototyping machine wants to give this design a try!

[Edgemontvillage]

Since my RS wiper/washer motor and pump restoration are the subject of discussion here I thought I would respond to Steve's (z28/z11) observation about the supplementary RS washer pump ink stamps. Steve is correct that the ink stamps on repro RS washer pumps (originals are not restoreable) are incorrect. The photo of my restored pump that was posted by Dave (Dave69X33) from my build thread on Team Camaro was added to the thread before I corrected the stamps. Original pump stamps used on the pump top profile were wide and oddly didn't fit the width of the gold dichromate bracket so they were applied on an angle.   

My original RS washer pump & stamp


Repro RS washer pump & stamp


Corrected Repro RS washer pump stamp (with my preferred original pump date code)

[Dave69x33]

As always, great work Lloyd!

Did you use Isopropyl alcohol on a cotton pad to remove the repro ink stamp, or use WD40 to help dissolve and remove the ink, clean the surfaces with alcohol then use your custom in stamp?

Dave

[Edgemontvillage]

Thanks Dave, in my experience Acetone doesn’t damage dichromate so that’s what I used to remove the repop ink stamp which also leaves a clean surface for the new stamp. As you may have noticed when the repop stamp was applied by the manufacturer, some of the dichromate layer was removed by whatever they used to prep the surface.

[Dave69x33]

Lloyd,

Thanks for the tip. I did notice the spot where the yellow dichromate looked thin and wiped away which prompted my question. 

Have you tested the headlight washers?  Do they work okay?  I used mine once back in about 1999-2000 just after restoring my car. I have not used them since…lol.

[169INDY]

You can touch up your Smeared Dichromate using a Neon Yellow Highlighter. 
Start small & lite touch, it just might work>?

[Edgemontvillage]

Lloyd,

Thanks for the tip. I did notice the spot where the yellow dichromate looked thin and wiped away which prompted my question. 

Have you tested the headlight washers?  Do they work okay?  I used mine once back in about 1999-2000 just after restoring my car. I have not used them since…lol.

Dave, I haven't installed the interior as yet so I've only bench tested the wiper motor and washer pump.