My 69z died and I can't figure it out

[Gimmea250swb]

69z/28. I took an opportunity to clean some parts and pulled all the black bracketry out of the engine bay, repainted and installed.  I took the car out for a ride and it died after about a 25 minute drive and I had it towed home.  After some effort and a smoked battery to chassis wire, I discovered I never connected the primary negative battery line to the block.  I connected it and the car seemed to run fine after a few rounds around the block.  I took a chance the next day and after about 15 minutes the car died again.  It stuttered a couple of times and then completely died.  I towed it home and haven't gotten it running sense. Here's where I am:

Battery is 12.5 volts, charged, engine cranks but doesn't start.
The insulation around the negative battery to chassis wire is melted, but I've still got continuity and ground at the bolt
I've got nice good fuel spray in the carb and I've tried starter fluid
I bought a new coil and installed it.  Resistance between - / + is around 3 ohms and from main to - is 10k ish
I've tried to crank it with and without the condenser
The yellow/white wire and condenser are on + coil and the black dist / brown tach wire are on -.  At one point the condenser was incorrectly connected to neg.
Voltage at the + coil terminal with key on 6V
Voltage at the + coil when cranking 9-10V
Point gap is .015" so it's not frozen there
Had an inline spark tester that seemed to flash fine
I considered that I may have hooked up the spark plug wires wrong after checking the points.  I disconnected the #1 plug and found the compression stroke and aligned the timing marker to TDC.  The rotor points (and pointed before) to about the #6 position.  It's off clock, but it was fine before.  Photo below shows where it points and where I'm connecting the #1 plug wire.  Seems right to be at some degree BTDC - again, timing was good before all this.
As I type this I've done nothing to check the voltage regulator. 

All suggestion are welcome.  I'm more than willing to start at square one.

[uscrichter]

Check for spark at the plugs, if nothing, replace the condenser!

[Stingr69]

Set new point gap at .019".  I have no idea where you got .015"?

Do you have a condenser inside your distributor?  I cant see any wire for it?  Should be hooked up to the points, along with the coil negative wire attachment.

White/red cloth covered resistance wire from fuse block goes to coil + along with yellow wire from starter solenoid.

Condenser outside on coil bracket is actually there as a filter for AM radio interference.  It is not required for engine operation.  Leave it disconnected for now.

[Gimmea250swb]

Set new point gap at .019".  I have no idea where you got .015"?

Do you have a condenser inside your distributor?  I cant see any wire for it?  Should be hooked up to the points, along with the coil negative wire attachment.

White/red cloth covered resistance wire from fuse block goes to coil + along with yellow wire from starter solenoid.

Condenser outside on coil bracket is actually there as a filter for AM radio interference.  It is not required for engine operation.  Leave it disconnected for now.

Hey Stinger, thanks for the reply.

I'm adding photos for another set of eyes.

Gap set to .019"

No condenser in the distributor, only the one on the coil bracket. I checked continuity between the point connection and the coil connector since I was there. Good continuity. it is connected to the negative coil terminal.

Yes, white/red and yellow connected to + coil.

Condenser outside is disconnected.

I also double checked TDC and my spark plug wiring.  No luck.

[Gimmea250swb]

Check for spark at the plugs, if nothing, replace the condenser!

I started each of the pugs not wanted to leave anything out. 1, 3, 5, 7 no issues.

I went to check 2 and when my wife hit the key I saw a spark at the starter.  I didn't notice if 2 fired.  I went underneath to see if anything was loose.  Wires seemed good, but I noticed the bolt connecting the solenoid to the starter was out of place and loose.  I tried tightening it and no luck.  I pulled it out and it looked fried.  I need to fix this before I can continue.  The starter worked although it seemed hard to get going.  Before this whole thing, I recall the starter zipping on.  Regardless, I feel like this isn't contributing to the lack of vroom.

[rich69rs]

Stingr69 said:

“Condenser outside on coil bracket is actually there as a filter for AM radio interference.  It is not required for engine operation.  Leave it disconnected for now.“

Gimmea250swb said:

“No condenser in the distributor, only the one on the coil bracket.”



Although you say you have a 0.019” point gap, what is the physical condition of the points themselves?  Are they burnt or corroded?

I would think that you need the proper condenser (capacitor) inside the distributor, because it prevents current from arcing (jumping) across an open gap in the breaker points and ensures that the circuit is broken cleanly which also helps to prolong the operational life of the points.  Prolonged arcing across the point gap will eventually damage the points which can result in: vehicle will not fire or start as well as a rough running engine if it does start.

Richard

[Gimmea250swb]

Stingr69 said:

“Condenser outside on coil bracket is actually there as a filter for AM radio interference.  It is not required for engine operation.  Leave it disconnected for now.“

Gimmea250swb said:

“No condenser in the distributor, only the one on the coil bracket.”



Although you say you have a 0.019” point gap, what is the physical condition of the points themselves?  Are they burnt or corroded?

I would think that you need the proper condenser (capacitor) inside the distributor, because it prevents current from arcing (jumping) across an open gap in the breaker points and ensures that the circuit is broken cleanly which also helps to prolong the operational life of the points.  Prolonged arcing across the point gap will eventually damage the points which can result in: vehicle will not fire or start as well as a rough running engine if it does start.

Richard

The points aren't burnt. I wouldn't call them corroded, but I'm not going to take a chance and I'll just buy one.  The car hasn't run with an internal condenser for 15+ years.  Would it be the same condenser as the one on the coil bracket and it screws into one of the holes one the distributor plate or should I buy the combined point/conderser set like THIS?

https://www.npdlink.com/product/contact-set-points-distributor-w-capacitor-ac-delco-replaces-gm-pn-1876600/112813

[x66 714]

Go to NAPA & get the CS786 & the RR175. The Corvette had a better set of points but I can't remember the part number....Joe

[Stingr69]

The points will not last long without the internal condenser.  It might run for a while without it, but the points will probably get trashed. 


Do not buy the unreliable points and condenser one-piece setup.  Get the separate condenser (and screw) and attach it inside the distributor.  Wire goes to the points connection.


.019" gap is for brand new points contacts.  You can actually get a small points file to flatten them out if they have minor pitting.  Otherwise they are cheap to replace.

[uscrichter]

If you drive it a lot, go with a single wire breakerless  ignition and call it day! they are very reliable.

[Sauron327]

Integral points/condenser are inferior. Someone please explain to me why multiple cars with points run just fine. I can grab points from 40 years in this biz and fix a car. Grow a network if you are just a hobby person.

[Gimmea250swb]

Go to NAPA & get the CS786 & the RR175. The Corvette had a better set of points but I can't remember the part number....Joe

Checked online, saw the NAPA 45 minutes away had them.  Drove over...you know the rest of the story...

I came home and ordered them online - they should be here Tuesday.  Please check for this thread when it renews on Wednesday or so!!

[Gimmea250swb]

If you drive it a lot, go with a single wire breakerless  ignition and call it day! they are very reliable.

Hmmmm, I never heard of this.  So, not an MSD, but electronic without the box and looks original.  Interesting.  I need to hear more.

I'll be honest, I'm not convinced the points are my issue here, but I'm going for it because I've got nothing else.  I'm going to post a photo of the rotor angle and associated spark plug wire positions for another set of eyes this weekend. Thank you all for keeping this going. 

[David K]

If points and condenser could easily power a factory big block or cross ram, pretty sure everything else will run fine. I replaced mine with a Pertronix because the distributor on my engine is under the ac compressor and has no window for an Allen head adjustment.

[rich69rs]

If points and condenser could easily power a factory big block or cross ram, pretty sure everything else will run fine. I replaced mine with a Pertronix because the distributor on my engine is under the ac compressor and has no window for an Allen head adjustment.

I did the same thing back in May 2007 (almost 10,000 miles ago) because maintaining a breaker point distributor, when the distributor is located in the back of the engine, especially as you get older, is not as easy a task as it once was - been there done that - don't need to do it anymore.  Have had (knock on wood) absolutely no issues.  Definitely the way to go as you get older IMHO.

Richard

[uscrichter]

The magnetic pickup type have worked great for me with several cars I drive often and don’t have to worry about point gap or setting the dwell, the last time I bought one a few years ago they were about a hundred buck and took 15 minutes to install.

[uscrichter]

Sauron327, I’m JUST a hobbyist! and have been for over 40 years with a passion for first gen Camaros , I thought from what I reviewed on the purpose statement by this sites founders most members here are JUST hobbyists? I did not know I need to have a formal restoration shop to contribute constructive and sometimes helpful information? Please clarify! The “Hobbyist “

[Delco115]

Hmmmm, I never heard of this.  So, not an MSD, but electronic without the box and looks original.  Interesting.  I need to hear more.

Here is a link to a great breakerless ignition that looks totally stock when used >>> https://www.lectriclimited.com/catalog/product/view/id/85039/s/breakerless-se-electronic-ignition-conversion/category/736/

[Gimmea250swb]

Well...We're on the right track.  I installed the new points from NAPA with condenser.  I also got the starter bolt fixed.  Gapped to .019 and turned the key and it started right up.  Woot woot!.  Next, I'll set the dwell and go around the block.  Thanks for getting me straight guys!!

[Gimmea250swb]

Dwell set, timing checked and drove around the block.  So far, so good.  Thanks all!