Author Topic: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped  (Read 5366 times)

Dave69x33

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1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« on: January 22, 2022, 09:05:40 PM »
I have been reading in Jerry MacNeish's Appraisal-Certificate of Authenticity reports that he removes the RS backup lamps to inspect that the holes are stamped in the lower valance panel.  He also evaluates the location of the wiring grommet holes thru the truck pan to compare with his extensive research and photo documentation on 1st Gen Camaros.  I have been on JM's schedule since August 2021 to evaluate and certify my '69 RS Z28 Camaro, along with two (2) other '69 Z28s in my area. 

My '69 was assembled in Norwood in 05A.  I purchased my X33 D80 Z28 in 1995 with just over 45K miles, and spent 5 years restoring it (1995 - 2000) back to as original as possible. After reading several JM cert reports recently about how he validates an original RS, I recalled that during my Camaro restoration, that the holes in my lower valance panel where rough cut and not cleanly stamped. I recently removed them and took pictures of the holes as shown below.  I also found it interesting that the shifter hole in my floorboard was also a very rough cut hole.  The hole in the firewall for the RS vacuum hose grommet appeared to be in the correct and original position. 

My RS tail light housings #5961747 and #5961747 (with no hole for the backup light in the center of the housing for non-RS tail light housings) appeared to be original to the car, as well as my rear body "RS" wiring harness #8721693 appeared to be original to the car. The tag shown below was on the original harness and I transferred it to my reproduction replacement harness.  The balance of the RS components: front headlight doors and mechanisms, vacuum actuators, the RS vacuum reserve tank, and the control valve all appeared to be original unrestored parts. Finally, I found what appeared to be a "X3" on the interior rear bulk head, and on the firewall sheet metal (along with 2X, 10, and D8) when I attempted to carefully remove the layers of paint. I understand that "X33" was for the Style Trim and that all Rally Sport Camaros by default included the X33 trim option. There is no way with absolute certainty to confirm if a '69 Camaro was originally an RS car without an original window sticker or build sheet.  I do have the NCRS Shipping Data Report and contacted the original dealership to see if they had any documentation on my Camaro.  Unfortunately, the dealership had a warehouse fire and lost all their old records.  That was a big bummer!

During the restoration, I replaced the driver's side rear quarter panel with an NOS panel and replaced the trunk pan panel due to rust.  It appears the passenger side rear quarter panel had been replaced at some point by a prior owner. There is no noticeable sheet metal date code in the panel as often seen on original rear quarter panels.  I cannot be certain if the lower valance panel was ever replaced by prior ownership, but it looks like the original panel.  I have read the CRG info showing holes that were stamped. 

Questions:
1.)  Is it possible at the Norwood Assembly Plant, that some Fisher bodies were incorrectly released from the body bank targeted to be RS, but had to be corrected "down the line" on either the Fisher Body side, or Chevrolet final assembly side of the operation?

2.)  Does anyone else have an original '69 RS with rough cut out holes for the backup lamps?

Thanks!

 

Dave69x33

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2022, 09:12:43 PM »
Here is a few pics of my tail lamp housings and wiring grommet locations in the trunk pan.

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2022, 11:02:10 PM »
Answer to #1 - not likely.  Those do not appear to be original RS holes.  Several possible reasons. My best guess is the rear panel was replaced when the passenger side quarter panel was replaced, possibly due to an accident.

Transmission hole for 4 speed cars in 69 was cut with a torch. It will be rough.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

william

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2022, 12:10:12 AM »
We all have a different perspective, I guess. I spent many years in a Camaro parts business, sold many GM rear body panels. In fact, my '69 Z/28-RS need one due to minor collision damage. I'm sure the back-up lamp holes looked nothing like the original stamped panel, never thought it would be an issue. But it was born an RS; assuming it wasn't because of the appearance of the holes is shortsighted. I have mentioned this more than once.

I'm sure many Z11s received a replacement panel during the course of a restoration. Those aren't checked because they were all RS. But if they were checked, I'm sure he would find more than a few with replaced rear body panels.
Learning more and more about less and less...

Dave69x33

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2022, 12:34:26 AM »
Thanks for the quick responses!  Not sure why two of the pictures are upside down. Odd. Sorry about that.

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2022, 01:27:29 AM »
Just check all of the other RS stuff. As William said, it wouldn’t be the first true RS car with a replaced tail pan.

Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

firstgenaddict

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2022, 02:30:41 PM »
The repro trunk pans have a number of differences when compared to an original -

Original tail lamp panels are dated - most if not all I have encountered were stamped about 2 in to the right of the opening behind the license plate.
In the photo I drew a red line for the approx location of the date stamp, though I have seen the date stamped in a location which would be hidden by the bumper on a few .
James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
Current caretaker of 1971 LT1's - 11130 and 21783 Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
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Dave69x33

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2022, 02:36:00 PM »
Firstgenaddict,

Good info. I’ll check my trunk tail pan today.

Dave69x33

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2022, 05:01:53 PM »
I checked and found date code "K 10 "on my tail panel.  It was located on the LH side of the panel behind the bumper, down from the approximate centerline of the tail lamp lens.  So the good news (so far) it is the original tail panel; manufactured at the "K" (stamping plant name and location?) during the 10th week of 1969 (3/3 - 3/9/1969).  This stamping date lines up fine with my 1st week of May final assembly build date.  The bad news is the panel does not have clean stamped holes for the RS backup lamps.  For reference, I included a picture of the spot weld along the bottom edge.

I would still like to know if any other folks with an original (unrestored) '69 RS Camaro have rough cut holes in the valance panel for the backup lamps.  Thanks in advance for your input!

BULLITT65

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2022, 09:13:27 PM »
I also have been noticing the RS mentioned in JM at the very end of his reports. My White 69Z is from the LA plant, But I am curious and I am also going to look for a date stamp and pull the back up light housing and check. Would LA and Norwood have the same process for the cut out?
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
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rszmjt

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2022, 09:21:27 PM »
My 06A RSZ has the back up light holes in valence punched out as per norm. owned it since 1974 BTW.

Also Have a look at your RS vacumn tank leg mounting weld in nuts and the headlight bracket weld in nuts visible on front of rad support, are they square or hexagon?

BULLITT65

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2022, 09:39:23 PM »
rszmjt, can you post pics of the stamp cut outs and those other areas you mention please? thanks
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2022, 10:32:08 PM »
I think the new AMD panel is pretty close on the cutouts.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

Dave69x33

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2022, 10:50:17 PM »
rszmjt,  I got a picture of one of the three vacuum tank legs and the weld nuts are square. The RS headlight bucket frame weld nuts are also square. 

rszmjt

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2022, 12:26:04 AM »
 Dave those are original GM pieces, the repo tanks and headlight brackets have hex type welded nuts, also the small welded nuts for the valve on the repo tanks are wrong type hex too.
However if you are trying to get it correct the attaching bolts for the headlight brackets are wrong those are 70 & newer bolts as they are threaded all the way to the end. They should be the same type ends as your tank bolt picture.

Hope this helps.

Mike.

Dave69x33

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2022, 12:57:48 AM »
Thanks for the feedback rszmjt, and for the recommended correction on the headlight frame mounting bolts. Over the past several years I have tried to correct and replace any incorrect hardware. I cross reference the hardware called out in the assembly manual with the AMK Products catalog. For the most part the AMK hardware has be correct, but occasionally I find I selected the wrong bolt when I see the correct bolt style on a survivor. 

I wonder if the headlight bucket shims should be gray/black phosphate or silver CAD as mine are currently?   I changed the silver CAD shims under the cowl panel to gray/black phosphate which has me second guessing the finish on many of the other body shims.

Dave69x33

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2022, 01:02:26 AM »
Can anyone explain why some of my some of my pictures load in CRG upside down?  Has something changed?  I have loaded pics on CRG for years and have never had this issue until recently.

rszmjt

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2022, 01:09:08 AM »
Thanks for the feedback rszmjt, and for the recommended correction on the headlight frame mounting bolts. Over the past several years I have tried to correct and replace any incorrect hardware. I cross reference the hardware called out in the assembly manual with the AMK Products catalog. For the most part the AMK hardware has be correct, but occasionally I find I selected the wrong bolt when I see the correct bolt style on a survivor. 

I wonder if the headlight bucket shims should be gray/black phosphate or silver CAD as mine are currently?   I changed the silver CAD shims under the cowl panel to gray/black phosphate which has me second guessing the finish on many of the other body shims.

Dave , I personally think the shims should be grey phosphate, I have taken apart a lot of original cars over the last 50+ years and don't recall silver cad being used, but dont take that for sure. Pretty sure my lower fender shims are grey, my headlight brkts dont actually have shims so no help there. The AMK bolts are great, comparing them to originals you can not tell the difference.

Mike.

Dave69x33

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2022, 01:28:47 AM »
Good to know Mike. I’ll get to work with gun bluing to blacken the shims!

firstgenaddict

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2022, 01:53:59 AM »
Unless AMK has changed recently the last NEW AMK "pinch point" bolts I received were ground to a point not pinched off as the OE originals, the point of the bolt is sharper on the ground point bolts and they do not have the pinch marks on the sides of the points.  I have been using them for mock ups etc then replacing with replated originals on final assem.

I have plenty of examples, I will take some photos.
James
Collectin' Camaro's since "Only Rednecks drove them"
Current caretaker of 1971 LT1's - 11130 and 21783 Check out the Black 69 RS/Z28 45k mile Survivor and the Lemans Blue 69 Z 10D frame off...
https://plus.google.com/photos/112392262205377424364/albums?banner=pwa

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2022, 02:19:42 AM »
Can anyone explain why some of my some of my pictures load in CRG upside down?  Has something changed?  I have loaded pics on CRG for years and have never had this issue until recently.

Sometimes depends on the browser. Of if you are looking on a phone versus a computer screen.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

Dave69x33

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2022, 11:52:03 AM »
bcmiller, thanks. I’ll check this out on my PC. Some pics appear upside down when viewing them on my iPhone.

Dave69x33

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2022, 11:59:20 AM »
Interesting...the pictures view fine on my PC but some show upside down on my iPhone. 

Charley

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2022, 03:10:50 PM »
My 25k mile 69.

Edgemontvillage

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2022, 04:53:09 PM »
Original (69) RS headlight housing shims don't seem to surface often, when I was at MCACN this year I spoke with Larry C who told me for Legends judging they accept this style either manganese phosphated or clear zinc plated. There were likely other shim styles used in production however this is their accepted style. As Mike (rszmjt) noted, other body shims were manganese phosphated so it's likely these would have been too.



BULLITT65

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2022, 05:20:02 PM »
Thanks for the pics. I assume LA and Norwood had the same punch outs ?
1969 garnet red Z/28 46k mile unrestored X77
-Looking for 3192477 (front) spiral shocks 3192851 (rear)
-Looking for an original LOF soft ray windshield
-Looking for original Delco side post negative battery cable part # 6297651AV

jdv69z

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2022, 08:03:54 PM »
Would they have been punched out at the assembly plant, or at the stamping plant? If I at stamping plant, I would think they would be identical.
Jimmy V.

bertfam

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2022, 08:45:18 PM »
Quote
I assume LA and Norwood had the same punch outs ?

There weren't any Fisher stamping plants west of the Mississippi. All stampings for LA came by rail from the same mid-western plants that supplied Norwood so yes, they would be the same.

Ed

bcmiller

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2022, 08:53:58 PM »
Thanks for the pics Charley.
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

Edgemontvillage

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Re: 1969 RS Backup Lamp Holes in Lower Valance - Stamped
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2022, 09:14:36 PM »
Dave those are original GM pieces, the repo tanks and headlight brackets have hex type welded nuts, also the small welded nuts for the valve on the repo tanks are wrong type hex too.
However if you are trying to get it correct the attaching bolts for the headlight brackets are wrong those are 70 & newer bolts as they are threaded all the way to the end. They should be the same type ends as your tank bolt picture.

Hope this helps.

Mike.

Since on the subject, the RS door rubber rebound bumpers in the photo (Reply #13) are a non-original style and should be a shallow profile like the ones below.

 

anything