Author Topic: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?  (Read 5735 times)

william

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Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« on: October 29, 2021, 02:28:53 PM »
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1969-chevrolet-camaro-z-28-60/

124379N596082

From the ad:

"This 1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 is finished in Garnet Red with black stripes over black vinyl upholstery and is powered by a numbers-matching 302ci V8..."

The V0120DZ stamping does not compare with other January 1969 Z/28 engine stamps. Block appears to have been decked.
Learning more and more about less and less...

rich69rs

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2021, 12:06:22 AM »
Yup - one of those subtle wording differences to watch out for:

“….a numbers matching …” vs  “….the numbers matching original…”

Richard
Richard Thomas
1969 RS

dutch

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2021, 12:26:47 AM »
(quote) Yup - one of those subtle wording differences to watch out for:

“….a numbers matching …” vs  “….the numbers matching original…” (quote)..

or better yet 'Born With'..

CantRepeat

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2021, 08:09:52 AM »
With the increasing successful litigation of sellers/dealers for misrepresentation of vehicles and parts they try to reduce their liability with stuff like "believed to be" or "pervious owner says". I hate dealers and flippers.
-Tim
67 RS/SS Vert C-1 797-Z LOS 11B
EXDL 2EMGR 3SL
4P

msbrunner@ucdavis.edu

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2021, 03:17:09 PM »
Sold for $95.5k!
~Matt
'69 02D RS Z/28

Red955i

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2021, 04:07:39 PM »
Fueled by people like this, and NCRS acceptance of restamps.   https://numbersmatch.net

usa1ti

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2021, 04:32:14 PM »
Maybe they should have listed it as 1/2 X77 and 1/2 X33 and just called it a X55. Whoever gave $95.5k prob wouldnt know the difference....
Todd, East TN

jwbavalon

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2021, 07:28:52 PM »
That link by Red955i was very disturbing.

jdv69z

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2021, 08:37:05 PM »
That link by Red955i was very disturbing.

Which is why the block need to be inspected for the correct machining pattern that was left by broaching at the engine plant. I'm wondering if that is somehow being duplicated these days?
Jimmy V.

69Z28-RS

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2021, 08:56:15 PM »
There are people who SAY they can reproduce the factory broach marks, BUT IMO  I think I can tell the difference between a 50 yr old broached surface and one broached and stamped last year...?   
09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette, '60 Corvette, '72 Corvette
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

msbrunner@ucdavis.edu

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2021, 08:58:30 PM »
Everyone in the hobby just needs to be educated that “numbers-matching” does not mean born-with. Sadly plenty of folks new to the hobby have no idea. But really, the concept of “numbers-matching” just needs to go away in general. It’s born-with or it’s not. I can’t get over that this car sold for $95k!
~Matt
'69 02D RS Z/28

169INDY

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2021, 10:09:39 PM »
,,,,,,,,,,,,, born-with or it’s not. I can’t get over that this car sold for $95k!

DITTO!

or Did it really will we see it again soon<>?
Jim
68 SS/RS L35 Th-400 LOS
69 Pace Car L48 Th-350 LOS
68 Z28 M21 LOS

CantRepeat

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2021, 10:28:40 PM »
,,,,,,,,,,,,, born-with or it’s not. I can’t get over that this car sold for $95k!

DITTO!

or Did it really will we see it again soon<>?

Probably the same guy that paid $171 for this Z.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1969-chevrolet-camaro-z-28-32/
-Tim
67 RS/SS Vert C-1 797-Z LOS 11B
EXDL 2EMGR 3SL
4P

Danzo

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2021, 01:16:26 AM »
Directly from the seller during the auction when asked:

Nov 3 at 12:52 PM
WX8 This author's likes: 1
Is this a Date Code Correct engine or a numbers matching engine the car was born with?

Nov 3 at 5:25 PM
highoctane1 (The Seller) This author's likes: 28
@WX8 matching numbers engine it was born with

Doc



rocco376

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2021, 02:22:41 AM »
Interesting that the phone number on the Numbers Match site appears to be the same as this business.

https://fantomworks.com/about/contact-us/

69Z28-RS

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2021, 02:27:26 AM »
There's probably a valid reason the phone numbers are the same, and it really doesn't surprise me...

09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette, '60 Corvette, '72 Corvette
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
72 El Camino, '55-'56-'57 Nomads, '55-'57 B/A Sedan

Red955i

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2021, 01:44:14 PM »
I don't know if  NCRS (for Corvettes) has changed it ways, but a decade ago this was from their Judging manual.

 "For instance, the following examples represent restorations and are not considered counterfeiting:
• Repainting an original black Corvette with black lacquer paint
• Installing accurately reproduced black vinyl seat covers in a car that left the factory with a standard black interior
• Stamping a 435-HP block to conform to the date/serial number of the original 435-HP Corvette in which it is to be
installed"

"For instance, the following would be examples of counterfeiting:
• Repainting an original blue car red and changing the trim tag to make red appear to be the original color
• Installing a red interior in a car that left the factory with a blue interior and changing the trim tag to make red
appear to be the original color interior
• Replacing the engine of an original small block Corvette with a big block and stamping numbers on it to make it
appear to be an original big block engine
• Replacing the carburetor on an engine with a fuel-injection unit and stamping the numbers and suffix code on the
block to make it appear to be an original fuel-injection car"

So if your "Born With" Engine was long gone, you got another date coded correct engine, and re-stamped it, you are fine. However if you replaced your 427/400 with a 427/435 and stamped as such, that was counterfeit. If it weren't for rules like this, there would be far less of a market for stamps etc.

169INDY

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2021, 03:10:45 PM »
"Interesting" NCRS uses a harsher legal TERM: counterfeiting (i.e. CLONE)

What does the ART world Call a Tribute  "Mona-Lisa" that is up for auction.


Seller  chimes in with:  Representations and Warranties made by seller: This vehicle is being sold "as is". No representations or warranties are made by seller, nor are any representations or warranties relied upon by bidders in making bids.
Jim
68 SS/RS L35 Th-400 LOS
69 Pace Car L48 Th-350 LOS
68 Z28 M21 LOS

Hans L

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2021, 04:14:27 PM »
The BaT is an interesting sight of sellers and buyers.  Many high-end cars on the site sold by small, premium dealers at above market prices is my take.  They do not like criticism or questioning of the cars being auctioned and call people out if you degrade the listing in anyway (ie - suggest the engine may not be original).  Lots of sycophants there praising cars they know nothing about and others who know little but preach they know a lot, stating things that are not accurate, but everyone goes along with it.   To gain status with the buyers and critics, you need to bid on cars (not win, just bid to help drive up the prices).   

Anyway, I frequent the site often due to interesting cars listed, but don't dare say anything....
https://www.instagram.com/69camarorsz28/
'69 Camaro RS Z/28 Van Nuys Built
'69 Chevelle SS 396 4 Speed

169INDY

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2021, 05:51:16 PM »
Great Word!

a person who acts obsequiously toward someone important in order to gain advantage.
synonyms:
toady · creep · crawler · fawner · flatterer · flunkey · truckler · groveler · doormat · lickspittle · kowtower · obsequious person · minion · hanger-on · leech · puppet · spaniel · Uriah Heep
Jim
68 SS/RS L35 Th-400 LOS
69 Pace Car L48 Th-350 LOS
68 Z28 M21 LOS

camaronut

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Re: Caveat Emptor...Numbers matching?
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2021, 07:13:51 PM »
Interesting that the phone number on the Numbers Match site appears to be the same as this business.

https://fantomworks.com/about/contact-us/
Holy Chamoley!!!!  wow.......