Author Topic: FIA Homologation  (Read 687 times)

stevegriff

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FIA Homologation
« on: October 16, 2021, 11:46:58 AM »
I am nearing the end of the homologation of my 1967 Camaro in the UK. It is to HTP standard 1449 period G1. The only area of difficulty is the number of roll cage mounting points which needs to comply with FIA appendix K roll cages. This states that the roll cage (ROPS)

4.5. Tubes through the front bulkhead and/or attached to the body/
chassis within 10cm of the front suspension pickup points are not
permitted unless documentary evidence is provided to prove this was
done in period on the make and model concerned.
4.6. For cars up to and including Period G1, the ROPS must not have
more than six mounting points, unless documentary evidence is provided
to prove this was done in period on the make and model concerned.

Unfortunately I have 8 mounting points with the front roll cage legs going through the front bulkhead and being welded on to the front chassis legs just behind the upper wishbone mounting point. I could just remove these legs but wanted to try and prove that this type of roll cage design was done in period. I have pointed them, towards the drawing on page 72 of Steve Holmes' book but the assessor thinks its unlikely they will accept this as the sketch has no date.

Can anyone assist with any photos, plans or information on the roll cage design. Thank you



 

Jon Mello

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Re: FIA Homologation
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2021, 08:33:30 PM »
What are they considering "period G1"?  1967 only, 1967 - 1969, or something else?
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stevegriff

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Re: FIA Homologation
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2021, 02:33:24 AM »
Hi. It is 1967 through to 1969. I need proof of roll cage front legs being used ‘in this period’. Thanks Steve

crossboss

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Re: FIA Homologation
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2021, 06:09:52 PM »
As 'I' understand the rules from that time period, roll cages/bars were not 'legal' to tie into suspension points. That said, some 'creative' aka cheating was done during the Trans-Am wars. The FIA rules have been posted on here and other sites to confirm any doubts you may encounter with the the proper (Vintage legal) mounting.
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Jon Mello

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Re: FIA Homologation
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2021, 09:14:15 PM »
In this link you will find a '68 article from Corvette News which shows the preparation of the Penske Camaro (one of two team cars that year).  In the pictures you can see the roll cage bars coming through the firewall and attaching to the front subframe.  The SCCA GCR rule books from this era do not do a good job of telling you whether these were allowed of not, but they were.

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9345.msg66964#msg66964
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Jon Mello

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Re: FIA Homologation
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2021, 09:18:11 PM »
In this link at the top of the page you will find an article about the preparation of the Gerry Gregory '69 Camaro which ran four Trans-Am races during the 1969 season.  There are several pictures where you can see the roll cage bars coming through the firewall and attaching to the front subframe.

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9466.msg70534#msg70534
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Re: FIA Homologation
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2021, 12:09:12 AM »
This is a picture of the engine compartment of my former 1969 Camaro.  It was the former Bolus and Snopes Camaro, which raced in both the 1972 Daytona Continental 6 Hours and Sebring 12 Hours.

photo2 by Jim Forte, on Flickr

Bolus&Snopes-2 by Jim Forte, on Flickr

crossboss

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Re: FIA Homologation
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2021, 09:00:57 PM »
I received these responses from the T/A guys over at the Boss 302 site concerning the roll cages/bars extending through firewalls and attaching to the suspension/subframes/shock towers:

"Not entirely positive, but I think the cage braces could not go back past the rear axle, and were not supposed to directly pick up suspension points. No idea how strictly enforced this was, but on some of the '69-'70 Boss cars you will see braces that stop at the axle with additional braces that extend to the rear spring's rear mount point. Almost as if the extended braces were added later. Hank Fournier recently told me how, when building the Gregson Boss he extended the bars to the rear. At '69 St. Jovite race the Ford guys were scoping the car over and decided they would incorporate them too.
Not sure if the front bars were allowed to go through firewall. Most don't. The Shelby team cars had an additional bar from the lower toe box up to the shock tower behind the front tires. Bud Moore (or Kar Kraft) did a work around with a 'box' sheet metal structure that went from just inside the fresh-air plenum on each side (the actual plenum was removed ) up and out to just beyond the shock tower. This was very strong. It was explained as a "electrical wiring housing" and in fact several of the cars did (do) have wiring in there."

AND

"In that period the cages could not be used to stiffen/enhance the chassis 1966-72.
In 1973 rules changed allowing bigger wheels/fenders removable fiberglass body panels. Roof still had to be steel. They allowed for cages to stiffen the chassis. These cars were very close to and could run IMSA GTO also.
1980 saw the birth of the tube frame car that could be 80" wide look like bodies (the roof still had to be stock steel - but the rest was open).
1989 full glass bodies didn't help save the series and it died in 2005.
SCCA still owns the name/series and has licensed it to outside companies since 2006. They have all had varied results and there are rumors that Pirelli is pulling out so the series will be adrift again without a sponsor."

AND

"To answer the question for the cages.  Braces to the back were basically unrestricted and one only has to look on the 70 Boss cars to see they extended bars to the trunk just above the rear shackles.  Several of the B/M had them and they helped.  From what I can recall bars forward were not allowed hence the boxing in of the fender supports on the 69/70 cars.  Once they were added several of the earlier cars also got them.  My 68 had them through the package shelf and fit perfectly to the area above the rear spring shackles.  Ask Steve Francis for photos."
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 09:27:55 PM by crossboss »
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stevegriff

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Re: FIA Homologation
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2021, 01:27:50 PM »
In this link you will find a '68 article from Corvette News which shows the preparation of the Penske Camaro (one of two team cars that year).  In the pictures you can see the roll cage bars coming through the firewall and attaching to the front subframe.  The SCCA GCR rule books from this era do not do a good job of telling you whether these were allowed of not, but they were.

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9345.msg66964#msg66964


Thanks to everyone for the information. The HTP (FIA historic technical regulation) application form has been submitted with the additional information. If granted I believe it will be the first HTP issued for a Camaro in the UK. Note I say 'I believe'. I'll keep you all posted.


stevegriff

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Re: FIA Homologation
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2021, 06:27:48 PM »
Well I'm nearly there with the approval of the historic passport. The FIA have raised a few questions. If anyone can help with evidence/photos on the following it would greatly assist. I need to prove they were fitted to Trans Am cars between 67-69

1 - Were aluminium radiators fitted for Camaro 67-69? or Trans Am cars.

2 - Were hurst gear shifters fitted

3 - Were rod ends (uniball) fitted to gear linkages

4 - Were MSD ignition units fitted to Trans Am cars?

Thanks so much to all that have assisted.

MO

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Re: FIA Homologation
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2021, 03:05:11 AM »
2- Hurst shifters were standard issue on 1969 Z/28's
4- MSD Ignition was founded in 1970.

crossboss

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Re: FIA Homologation
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2021, 05:15:31 AM »
I received this info from some T/A guys on another site about your questions:

Differed by team/budget.
Ford wanted they're stuff, so team cars through '69 got FoMoCo shifters, usually HD A/C car radiators, and C-series truck ignitions (pre-Duraspark), etc.
I do not know if Chevrolet used transistorized ignitions.
Independents did use Hurst shifters earlier than '70.
Custom radiators, brass or aluminum, was the norm by '70.

AND
The factory wanted the cars appearing to be stock and with their parts in view.
Aluminum radiators were very expensive at the time so dependent on budget. It was more a weight thing than cooling issue. Most cars ran the biggest factory brass radiator that would fit.
Heim joint shift linkage is a newer thing. It doesn't improve shifting that much and remember these were tough dudes who could wrestle these cars around for 2-24 hours with no power steering. Yanking that lever was a minor event. Also building race cars is about taking weight out not adding it.
MSD was new in 1970 some people experimented with them but they weren't the "breakthrough" for performance gain vs cost/reliability.
The FIA has a historic database you can search for specific cars.

Also, found this comment amusing:
The FIA are sticklers for using their rules to adjust the results to favor their pets. When the lowly Austin Mini continued to beat all the big expensive sports cars on the rally circuit the FIA tore it down until they found something they could disqualify the win. EUREKA - this parking light bulb isn't the one listed - you lose.
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